Jazz Parent

[JazzMom]

My son is a jazz guitarist and waiting for his auditions. So far he has NEC, NYU, SUNY Purchase and Peabody scheduled. While I am very proud of what he has accomplished I am also very afraid for what his future holds. He does love his music and he does devote many hours each week to practice and performance but I think about where he will be in 5 or 10 years and I worry. He is planning to study performance not education. He also plays 4 other instruments.
Any advice from those who have gone through a similar experience? I don't want to crush his dream but I also want him to be independent within 10 years.

[JohnW400]

I went to William Paterson University in the late 70's. Out of the entire Jazz performance class there are only 2 people that I know of that make their living soley by playing and/or teaching. One is a sax player, Bill Evans. He's actually quite famous. The other is Rick Crane a bass player.

Everybody else I know has a day job and plays on weekends. Myself included.

This is not to say that your son may not be able to make his living this way. He should just be prepared to work a day job just in case.

He should also be prepared to work hard not only on his instrument but in learning how to grow his business, which is exacly what he will become. A self employed businessman.

Part of my mistake was the idea that people will call when theres work around.That's not the case. You have to go out and actively seek it.

The other mistake was too much of the night-life and not staying focused.

Good luck to him.

[mr. beaumont]

One should always be prepared to have a day job. there are plenty of world class players in chicago right now who hold down day jobs--seems like there's more good players and there's fewer gigs than ever.

as a teacher (high school and private guitar instructor), i will also say--people who don't want to be teachers usually make lousy teachers. if your son has no want to go into education, don't push him there--he'll end up miserable, and his students will will be as well.

I always encourage my music loving students to look at all aspects of the music biz. there are ways to be surrounded by music as your career that are quite stable compared to being a performer, and that leave you ample time to make connections/ pursue your dream.

[cosmic gumbo]

Jazz performance degree is one of the most expensive hobbies there is. Best for little rich boys who don't have to deal with reality or making a living.

[Drumbler]

It would make more sense for him to get a different degree in say Economics/Finance and play jazz on the side.

If he works hard and manages his time he can play a lot in college and in addition, come out with earning power.

If you are paying the freight you have a say. If he's paying then...he can do what he wants.

The fact is that if he has that kind of talent, he will make it, music degree or not. If he doesn't, then a music degree won't get him there.

This is a difficult decision for him and you. Good luck.

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Jazz performance degree is one of the most expensive hobbies there is. Best for little rich boys who don't have to deal with reality or making a living.

Actually most of the guys I know that have this degree work a reguglar job and then go out and play/teach

I would have to say that the average work week is around 55-70 hours. And the pay is for the most part .....SHIT

I stopped looking for gig's when I saw I was copmpeting with 18 yr old jazz majors that were willing to play a Saturday night restaurant gig for $25 each. Imagine playing a four hour gig plus setting up and breaking down equipment for $25....$6.25 an hour to play and $0 for your time to set up.

[mr. beaumont]

why economics/finance? why not look for a career in what he actually enjoys?

music production
sound engineering
music therapy
music journalism

it's the same thing i tell my student athletes. "Hey look. 1 in 100 high school basketball players makes their college team, one in 100 of those guys gets looked at by a pro team, one in 100 of those cats makes pro. Work hard, pursue your dream, but also know, if you love sports, there's 20 other ways it can be your "job" even if you get cut after the first try out."

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

why economics/finance? why not look for a career in what he actually enjoys?

music production
sound engineering
music therapy
music journalism

"

I agree. And you forget music publishing. There are quite a few publishers. People that don't read music yet compose (Like Paul McCartney) Need music copyists.

As far as music journalism I used to gig with a bass player that got a job writing for the trade papers. I think he wound up at Billboard. Not positive what mag though.

[mr. beaumont]

absolutely! i left out arranging/conducting as well, there's a ton of options.

[Drumbler]

So you are recommending a music degree then?

Music Therapy is on the list for the Top Ten Worst College Majors.

The mother is concerned about her son making a living.

Let's be real. Most of the music greats (I'm not speaking solely of jazz which is at the bottom of commercial music marketability) of today briefly attended music school if at all.

The list is lengthy.

[mr. beaumont]

quantify "worst."

i'm reccomending her son take a path in life that allows him to work with something he loves. It's possible. Sometimes there's more to life than "earning power," it's called "fulfillment."

[Drumbler]

"Worst" as in getting a decent paying job and the son out on his own.

She wants the kid independent financially.

[JimBobWay]

Originally Posted by JazzMom

I don't want to crush his dream but I also want him to be independent within 10 years.

I wanted to be a jazz guitarist from a very young age, and almost auditioned for a degree program. Then I ran into a local player, one of the finest guitarists I had ever heard. I told him my plans, and he sat me down and laid it out for me. He crushed my dream! Actually he just gave me a very candid assessment of the reality of the working jazz musician's life, and advised me to consider other professions, but always keep playing. I am forever grateful for his advice. I had other dreams, and many came true. I play my guitars every day, without having to make money from music.

[djangoles]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

quantify "worst."

i'm reccomending her son take a path in life that allows him to work with something he loves. It's possible. Sometimes there's more to life than "earning power," it's called "fulfillment."

I agree....This is the best advice that can be given and by judging how things are going right now with the global economy, I don't think any career option is a sure thing anymore. Most kids coming out of college today are finding out that there are very few jobs out there to begin with.

[woyvel]

I chose going for a business degree instead of music. I wish I had studied music as planned. I've missed out on so much because I went after the "career" that I was "supposed" to have, and lost all of my musical contacts that kept playing together over the years. Well, I got my business degree, and I'm still Joe Average like a lot of people I knew that studied music.

Also, I hated my college experience. I would have enjoyed being at a school where music could have been even a part of my studies or friendships. I could never tell my parents what that was like, though I don't blame them for wanting the best for me.

I'm a parent with a high school sophomore who has no idea what to study in college yet, but her path of interests will probably not prove lucrative and will cost me a lot of money that I don't have. If she finds a passion in some field of study I will support it wholeheartedly hoping that she doesn't make the same mistakes I did.

If he does go to college for music it must be instilled in him that he absolutely must learn to be confident in himself and SELL himself, even if he doesn't have a competitive spirit. This is not to compete with others for jobs as much as it would be to compete with himself for excellence in his craft and be noticed for what he does well.

Also, if he goes to NYU or SUNY, he may end up changing majors anyway by the time his college days are over. He may decide to go into education, business (with regard to music - check out SUNY Fredonia) or any other field after a couple years. Many I know have done just that.

[fep]

I wanted to be a music major when I went to college but my parents wouldn't support it... and my dad had a lot of influence on my. At that age I pretty much did what he adviced, he was very smart, logical, and persuasive... and he paid most of the bills.

I've often wondered what if I had been a music major? I use to thing I made the wrong choice.

I got a double major in accounting and economics. And had a successful career in a field that was not my passion (that's why they call it work).

I retired a couple of years ago at 48, I'm financially secure and now am pursuing my passion of playing guitar and have even gone back to college taking music classed. I don't have to worry about making money playing music.

Hopefully about half my life is still ahead of me.

Perhaps I made the right choice.

[coolvinny]

Given that the son is already quite into music, and is willing to work at it, I think he should pursue a more practical career than music.

Counterintuitive?

Nope. One can get plenty good at music without going to music school. So I think it's best to keep music as a passionate hobby but to follow a career path that is more practical. However, the caveat here would be to be careful in selecting the career path, i.e. don't pick a career path that won't leave enough time to still actively indulge in music. Investment banking would be out (crazy hours), certain practices of law would also be out (crazy hours), geology would be tough (lots of travel), etc. But that still leaves lots of career options.

I'm a lawyer in my 30's who works a lot and it's tough to juggle it all with working on my guitar skills as well as my other interests, plus a relationship. However, I think that's because I'm not that great on the guitar - I didn't start taking it seriously until I was about 25 or 26, and by that point in my life I was already very busy and had responsibilities, so there would be long stretches where I couldn't practice more than 30 minutes a day. If I had taken it seriously starting at say 16...or even 18, and practiced 2 or 3 hours a day consistently, then I think I'd be very content right now because (in my view) I would have struck a great balance between career security, lifestyle, and fulfillment from music.

I'm working very hard on guitar playing right now so that, when I'm 40, I don't look back to now and wonder why I didn't practice harder. Speaking of which, off to the woodshed...

Edit: I really admire those who choose to focus on music as a career. I wish I had their courage and self-confidence.

[JazzMom]

I really appreciate every comment that was posted. This is a great venue for me to get more information (and commiserate). The more information I have the better I feel. Not necessarily decided but feeling better!
Anyway, if its okay with all of you I would like to keep you posted on his progress and read your comments as they roll in!

[rodite1027]

Send your kid someplace cheap. All colleges are teaching the same shit. There isn't any different information at Berkley School of Music than Queens College. Great music schools are about the level of players. Jazz is all about playing with people better than you. Yes, Manhattan School of Music has some of the best player your kids age but who cares. It sounds as if you kid will move to New York and try his hand no matter what. He'll either sink or swim. Either way save the money for grad school where a music degree counts. He might end up teaching a the university level and a Master is a must. If he a big jazz success isn't really up to you, him or his over priced music education. It's no different than being a college educated actor, book writer or fine art painter. Stop worrying about his future. It's a waste of you energy. People major in jazz all over the US and make a living. Stop worrying like your kid could be the next Pat Metheny.....he can't.

[Drumbler]

Some insights from an educator about this very topic in this thread. Post #25:

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...ti-guitar.html

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by JazzMom

My son is a jazz guitarist and waiting for his auditions. So far he has NEC, NYU, SUNY Purchase and Peabody scheduled. While I am very proud of what he has accomplished I am also very afraid for what his future holds. He does love his music and he does devote many hours each week to practice and performance but I think about where he will be in 5 or 10 years and I worry. He is planning to study performance not education. He also plays 4 other instruments.
Any advice from those who have gone through a similar experience? I don't want to crush his dream but I also want him to be independent within 10 years.

For your son to make money (a living) out of college as a musician, he needs to......

1. be a proficient reader and transposer.
2. play as many instruments as possible.
3. have mastered jazz and classical theory.
4. Sing, in tune, not well.
5. Love to teach
6. Be a nice, confident person.
7. be ready to work 60-80 hours per week, sometimes for no pay.

8. he must KNOW that he is good enough.
9. be prepared to struggle.
10. be able to enjoy playing ANY music, as long as it's with good players.

Or, as mentioned, he will get a day job. A lot of pepole don't realize that a trained musician has no problem getting work if they take it seriously and treat it as a job. I'm 24, I got a BM in jazz performance from Cornish College of the arts in 2006, I haven't borrowed money from my parents since graduation. 3 years later, I work usually 70 hours per week and make, well... I don't want to say how much but, more than average for a person my age.

I play 3-5 nights a week and get paid various amounts for that, I teach 48 students per week and have a huge waiting list. I tour, put out records, teach workshops in the summer, compose, write grants, blog, etc... Why?

BECAUSE I TOOK MUSIC SCHOOL SERIOUSLY AND WAS NOT DELUSIONAL ABOUT BEING THE NEXT BIG JAZZ MUSICIAN.

music is a trade that will never die. especially in seattle the misconceptions about poor musicians comes from the fact that most people who go out into the world to make a living as a musician have no idea what it takes to actally do it. Mark my words, it can be done with hard work alone, most students at music schools however.... don't realize that and don't put in the work.

P.S. I play bass. Guitar and piano are what I use to teach and compose.

[Modalguru]

Hi,

your son has to know, that he becomes a business man, when he becomes a successful pro. His product is his playing or teaching or maybe he will become a manager, publisher, etc. And like with all businesses the success depends on the skills of networking. You have to know and to be in contact with people who offer jobs and/or support your own projects.

When you talk to successful musicians or other people running a successful business you will always hear, that it is no problem runnig the business and that payment is ok. When you talk to those struggling, they will always moan that they don't get gigs or orders, etc and when you dig deeper, you will see that they have failed in building up a network, or that they are offering a product or service nobody demands (in many cases they even don't know about what is being demanded).

Many artists, who are really good in their art, are not capable of managing their time like a businessman, are not very good in handling with their money, are not good in converstation and are not able to concentrate on productive tasks.

So maybe you can find a successful pro, who shows his daily routine to your son, of which making music is just a part and in most cases not the most time-consuming one. Maybe you can take your son to a careers adviser (good ones are not cheap) to find out, if there are other professions he might find interesting. If the outcome of this process still is, that he wants to become a musician, let him go for it.

All the best,
Chris

[abracadabra]

Originally Posted by timscarey

Why?

BECAUSE I TOOK MUSIC SCHOOL SERIOUSLY AND WAS NOT DELUSIONAL ABOUT BEING THE NEXT BIG JAZZ MUSICIAN.

I think this is really the key for anyone embarking on a career that is their 'passion'. It is all to easy to launch out into the labour market all but assuming that your passion will get you where you want to go, and I don't believe this is true by itself.

More importantly, those who embark on their 'ideal' careers because they want to avoid dreary work that is 'just a job' may find later in life to their dismay that their dream career has turned into 'just a job'. I often wonder about what Tim said above, and think that the most important thing, above anything else, in any profession, is just being professional and doing the job you are given to the best of your ability. IMHO, if you do this, you will be ahead of most of your colleagues right off the bat.

The number of people who can get by on just talent is tiny.

[Belman]

It's purely anecdotal, but a good friend of mine from college majored in journalism, then started a band that got signed by a big label and even made it onto the Tonight Show. But sales were poor and after two albums they disbanded.

Still, his passion was/is music, and he landed a cool job in Los Angeles working for a major label. His job is to "place" music in movies and tv shows, which means working with producers and directors to find the right song for their production. He loves his work, gets to spend his days listening to all kinds of music and interacting with other creative people. He never once thought such a job existed when we were back at college and he was dreaming of being a star.

[Jake Hanlon]

There is always going to be Money in Music.

There isn't always money in Jazz. Your Son will learn this on his own 'the hardway' and it's in all honesty the best way to learn it. He'll learn it far before he finishes his first two or three semesters at school.

I have a masters degree in Jazz performance from a Highly respected school. I got extremely lucky to get a Job teaching at the University level as soon as I got out. Because I knew teaching is what I want to do. Many many young men go into this thinking they're going to be players. Perhaps your boy has the talent and ability to "make it" but to honestly make a living off of performance of Jazz is a 1 in a million sort of thing (perhaps not that large a gap but it all depends on far too many variables). What it comes down to his own desires as it pertains to

Does he like to teach or is he talented for teaching
Does he have a certain level he requires for his standard of living
Is he willing to learn how to play styles outside of Jazz to compensate for his own musical interest in Jazz

To be a professional Jazz Musician today you have to

be Curtious, flexible and easy to work with
work well with Singers
Patience
Sight Reading
Know tradition, lots of standard tunes
Be able to play in Odd Meters
Have working equipment that will not break down or at least have options incase something does.

There've been too many horror stories that go around to frighten Parents when their kids get into this. I can understand it, I know a lot of people who try and fail. I know a lot of people to try and succeed! Jazz is not as bad as a lot of people make it out to be in terms of making a living off of it. I am nobody but I have a good lifestyle because of my teaching connections. My Brother does well also (pianist) and everyone I work with here are all tenured Professors making 80k+ a year I imagine (I don't discuss their salary with them.)

The potential is there for a long comfortable career with a house picket fence, 2.5 children and a Pension. He just has to want it, and work his butt off to get it.

[fep]

Originally Posted by timscarey

A lot of pepole don't realize that a trained musician has no problem getting work if they take it seriously and treat it as a job. I'm 24, I got a BM in jazz performance from Cornish College of the arts in 2006, I haven't borrowed money from my parents since graduation. 3 years later, I work usually 70 hours per week and make, well... I don't want to say how much but, more than average for a person my age.

I play 3-5 nights a week and get paid various amounts for that, I teach 48 students per week and have a huge waiting list. I tour, put out records, teach workshops in the summer, compose, write grants, blog, etc... Why?

music is a trade that will never die. especially in seattle the misconceptions about poor musicians comes from the fact that most people who go out into the world to make a living as a musician have no idea what it takes to actally do it. Mark my words, it can be done with hard work alone, most students at music schools however.... don't realize that and don't put in the work.

P.S. I play bass. Guitar and piano are what I use to teach and compose.

How many students graduate in music every year?

What % are able to do what Tim does, make a really good living as a full time musician (including teaching music)?

My guess... less than 2%. If that guess is correct then Tim is truly exceptional.

The numbers just aren't there. There are way, way more graduates than there are jobs. That can't be denied.

-------------------------------

Now pick a different major and ask the same questions...

How many students graduate in accounting every year?

What % are able to make a really good living as a full time accountant?

My guess... greater than 90%. If that guess is correct, and it probably is, then you don't have to be exceptional at all to make a good living as an accountant.

--------------------

I'm not saying don't be a music major. Just realize most music majors don't make a living playing music.

[randalljazz]

music education = ponzi scheme ?

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by Modalguru

Hi,

your son has to know, that he becomes a business man, when he becomes a successful pro. His product is his playing or teaching or maybe he will become a manager, publisher, etc. And like with all businesses the success depends on the skills of networking. You have to know and to be in contact with people who offer jobs and/or support your own projects.

When you talk to successful musicians or other people running a successful business you will always hear, that it is no problem runnig the business and that payment is ok. When you talk to those struggling, they will always moan that they don't get gigs or orders, etc and when you dig deeper, you will see that they have failed in building up a network, or that they are offering a product or service nobody demands (in many cases they even don't know about what is being demanded).

Many artists, who are really good in their art, are not capable of managing their time like a businessman, are not very good in handling with their money, are not good in converstation and are not able to concentrate on productive tasks.

So maybe you can find a successful pro, who shows his daily routine to your son, of which making music is just a part and in most cases not the most time-consuming one. Maybe you can take your son to a careers adviser (good ones are not cheap) to find out, if there are other professions he might find interesting. If the outcome of this process still is, that he wants to become a musician, let him go for it.

All the best,
Chris

+1

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by randalljazz

music education = ponzi scheme ?

+1!!!!!


(kidding)

[Drumbler]

To thine own self be true.

Or is it to your own wallet?