Jazz Parent

[Reg]

Hey Benedetto... Jazz making a comeback, where? Are you basing that on money paid per gig, venues that have jazz or how many people go see jazz... the only good paying jazz gigs are the jazz festivals, and they've become almost like shows. What do you call jazz ?
Your reality about passion and financial success are just that, yours. I'm from the school, ( yes, I have a few degrees, Berklee and UCLA), that passion doesn't depend on being comfortable or safe, and the last time I checked, if your still working, your still on (your) path to financial success.
I also thought we were simple talking about a basic bachelors degree, four or maybe five years, a little work life... the kid's maybe 26. Plenty of time to get a masters in whatever and/or start new career and get on with that path to success... have a traditional family etc...
I have a lot of thoughts about young musicians, and in general about the momentary gratification phenomenon and how it's influencing people in general. Which brings up the point of music education, very few young musicians I meet, play gigs with and especially, when I talk about jazz or musician in general have very little more than surface level information. This appears to come from those short term, uni-directional educational processes. Obviously not all and that's one of the reasons I became a member of this forum and a few others, there great sounding boards.
I have to disagree with your view of music being museful, maybe once you've become proficient at the very physical and theoretical aspects of music you have those interpretational liberties. It's great for music to be a second career or hobby etc... but for most, the job of having a family is pretty time consuming and to think your going to be able to put in the amount of time required to become proficient in music, well I don't it's fair for your family. Most families suffer from lack of time together in just about all professions. But still that's a great point and a great way of becoming a player or involved in music, and maybe great happiness.
Years ago and still today many jazz players had second jobs or were teachers and taught privately to be able to play jazz. I believe it's part of our job to help educate and open the eyes of the public about music's philosophical effects on society and not just societies affect on music. We have become so obsessed with life's material underpinning that we have written a blank check to intellectual trends from the dominant materialistic scientific worldview created by the miracles of technology... In a word simplification, which leads to oversimplification which leads to ignorance.
I think of music as well as life as a little more complex than just being able to play your butt off for less money... Reg

[82Benedetto]

Reg-

My opinion on jazz making a comeback is just that; an opinion. I personally feel like it's gaining prominence again, particularly due to the internet. I see more kids trying to learn jazz tunes, a lot of jazz influenced vocalists, more lesson material revolving around jazz, etc. It may not be back in the traditional sense, but I certainly think it's evolving and that it thrives a bit more than it has in the recent past.

Secondly, we are talking about a Bachelor's degree. Fact of the matter is even if you have a Bachelor's in music and go for your masters, your masters in music is equally as worthless (my opinion.) I don't know if you're inferring this, but you can't get a BA in music and then go for an MBA. It doesn't work like that.

Thirdly, if you plan on making music a career, chances are you're not going to be able to settle down and have a family at any point in your life. Most working musicians do not stay in one place; they often travel, there ARE no benefits, and it's just a very difficult thing to do. The only musicians I know that make a PASSABLE living while staying relatively stationary are those in cover bands playing old rock tunes.

All of what you stated is possible, albeit very unlikely. My point is a music degree will not make you any more viable in your career choice than someone that can play better, or for less, without one. It is my personal opinion, and the opinion of many working musicians I know (and some bigger names) that it makes more sense, financially, to get a degree in something that is recognized in the work force.

Finally, since you believe raising a family is a fulltime job in itself, don't you contradict yourself by suggesting it's plausible for a musician? Starting a music career in itself is like working two jobs.

And, I'm sorry you won't accept this, but music is museful now. Can you count how many 13 year old kids could even record on their own 10, or even 5 years ago? Technology has taken such a leap that anyone can record anything and get their name out there. Making a career of music has, always will be, and will only intensify as a struggle.

I mean, hell, why do you think Jimmy Bruno is doing internet instructional lessons...because it's "fun?" Likely not... Also, consider this. If you think teaching is necessary of working musicians, how do you suggest they compete when "jazz legends" like Bruno offer cheap lessons over the internet? What about all the free educational resources?

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by 82Benedetto;66084For example, when I play I don't have to charge as much as someone doing it for a living; it's not a business to me. Because I love to do it, I can go and grab a gig because I'm willing to play for less than another person (it happens all of the time.) I can play, pretty much, [I

whenever[/i] I want to and still make money doing it, and I love it more than I ever did trying to make it my sole source of income.

and you don't see a problem with that?

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by 82Benedetto

Reg-

Secondly, we are talking about a Bachelor's degree. Fact of the matter is even if you have a Bachelor's in music and go for your masters, your masters in music is equally as worthless (my opinion.) I don't know if you're inferring this, but you can't get a BA in music and then go for an MBA. It doesn't work like that.

All of what you stated is possible, albeit very unlikely. My point is a music degree will not make you any more viable in your career choice than someone that can play better, or for less, without one. It is my personal opinion, and the opinion of many working musicians I know (and some bigger names) that it makes more sense, financially, to get a degree in something that is recognized in the work force

Ignorance, you're just making stuff up.
you obviously don't have a degree in music and have never tried making a living as a musician. I know probably 200 people personally who make full-time livings as musicians, with families, and houses, and retirement plans, etc... THEY ALL HAVE DEGREES, and the jobs they have (including myself) are because of those degrees and the education that comes along with it.

stop trying to make yourself feel better becuase you gave up on your dream and chose to do somthing else.

[82Benedetto]

Originally Posted by timscarey

Dude, you just explained the problem. People are listening to you when they could be listening to someone who's devoted their life to the craft. Crappy bands and musicians who undercut the hard workers are why people no longer view music as a skill, and why everyone thinks they play guitar.

luckily, you can't undercut knowledge, and music education will never die. I'm not talking about colleges, I mean community music education. teach, teach, teach.

You're a little bit out of line there, buddy.

I think your failure is attempting to turn a muse into a career. I would put my ability and knowledge against ANY professional musician. Just because an individual is not "devoting his life" to music doesn't mean he or she cannot play well.

Your fault, as well as other "professional" musicians, is your failure to recognize what you do is a business. You cannot classify live performance as some untouchable art form that is worthy of excessive amounts of monies to be heard. There are wonderful and talented musicians who are willing to play for less than your jacked up prices because they love the craft and aren't selfish enough to hijack music in the name of "art."

You may not want to hear that, but it is selfishness. You and others are outraged because people that can and will play music for personal enjoyment cut into your business. You may be playing music exclusively, but you certainly don't have a right to a monopoly on it.

It's not "undercutting." It's poor foresight and a lack of understanding, on your part, on how the real world works. You can bitch and moan all you want about how you think you're better and more valuable than everyone that doesn't play for a living, but that certainly doesn't make it true.

I recognized this problem a long time ago, and I'm damn well happy I can play whenever I want and make a really good amount of money on the side. It's all economics, and you're not "entitled" to any amount of income from trying to make music a full time job.

And another thing, cut the BS about "undercutting" knowledge. You can preach all you want about how you think it's so important to know every aspect of music theory, but the fact of the matter is skill talks. I have an immense amount of knowledge in regard to music, but I've come to the conclusion it's pretty much worthless. No audience is going to care what chord substitutions you use or how you came to that conclusion; no audience is going to "like you more" because you sit and sight read a Grade VI piece of music.

I can tell you one thing; I've heard your music and all the "knowledge" behind it, but I'd rather listen to John Pizzarelli, a guy who has played by ear nearly all of his life, than your pretentious garbage. Does that make him an "unworthy" musician in your eyes? I, and the majority of people, don't give a rat's ass about the knowledge behind anything you play...they only care about what sounds good.

So let me ask you this. How much longer do you think physical music instructional establishments are going to last when a student can take lessons for less money, online, with greats and legends like Jimmy Bruno and Andreas Oberg? Or, do you also consider this some kind of "gross injustice?"

You might be stuck in the past and how you think things "should" be, but that's not how they are and you better learn to adapt or take advantage of what's going on, rather than blaming people for wising up more quickly than you.

In conclusion, your statements are completely asinine and unfounded. You keep a "holier than thou" attitude, but that doesn't make you any more viable than the guy with the passion for music doing it on the side. I've seen guys with groups on the side playing better music and getting more press than your self proclaimed, overrated "Reptet" group with less than a thousand views on a video that's been on youtube for 3 years and a 2 ratings I don't think you're in a place to preach.

[82Benedetto]

Originally Posted by timscarey

Ignorance, you're just making stuff up.
you obviously don't have a degree in music and have never tried making a living as a musician. I know probably 200 people personally who make full-time livings as musicians, with families, and houses, and retirement plans, etc... THEY ALL HAVE DEGREES, and the jobs they have (including myself) are because of those degrees and the education that comes along with it.

stop trying to make yourself feel better becuase you gave up on your dream and chose to do somthing else.

Kid, you're 25. You don't know the real world yet. I know people with degrees in music, and one's from prominent music schools, that cannot attribute success to music. I know one guy who graduated Juilliard for trumpet and couldn't make a living doing it....he's got a house and retirement plan and a beautiful family, but he doesn't contribute any of it to his music education. He had to get another job and start a business. I also know musicians that never had education past high school but play for a living and are very smart people.

The only individuals I do know that can attribute their "success" to their degrees are music educators in public and private schools, at all levels of education. And guess what programs get cut during economic hardship? Math teachers are kept before music teacher's bud. Please, go see how many music teachers are out of work....even private instructors lose a significant amount of students during this time, and you'd be a liar if you denied this.

You're a kid, you're young, and you have no idea what you're talking about. You're likely just out of school and I don't think you should be guiding kids.

Also, I suggest you reread my posts. I have tried making a living as a musician, have succeeded, and ultimately decided it was not a wise career path. It is not financially stable, it relies almost exclusively on discretionary income, and the technological boom in addition to the competition do not make it a prudent choice.

You can cry all you want, but you're wrong. There are REAL professional musicians that will agree with me (big names, not 25 year olds playing in mediocre jazz combos.)

I've studied with Joe Cinderella and played with Bernard Purdie, and I'm not a "lifer." So think twice before you discount my opinion. I'm sure Joe would knock you on the head if you came into his office with that attitude... I'm from North Jersey, and I pretty much have the Jazz epicenter at my finger tips. Manhattan is a stone's throw away, Lou Del Rosso's shop is around the corner, JazzKat amps thrives here, D'angelico has its headquarters here, and I've met, played with, and talked to some very prominent and interesting people. They will tell you you're absolutely full of it.

Don't underestimate the difficulty of creating a music career, and please don't glorify it. It's not easy and it's not always fun.

[82Benedetto]

So Tim, in summary let me say this.

You're obviously upset people like myself are even allowed to perform music. You hold yourself in such high esteem, yet you're playing gigs at bars and clubs I could easily take if I offered a lower price. You've got hardly any ratings or views on your videos, yet the guy who arranged "Super Mario Bros. Theme song" for pure enjoyment receives more recognition. Meanwhile, you have cover bands of musicians with no formal training and other jobs making significant amounts of money.

You consistently talk down on people that don't have your degree from a second rate performing arts school (Cornish? rejected from UNT?), but in the end people that love it make it work and you keep providing a great deal of misinformation.

Just quit the pretentious act, my friend. Anyone who "undercuts" you could dismantle your music career. Someone teaching for less could take your students, someone playing for less could take your gigs, and all you can say is "I love it more and I'm more dedicated and I'm better" even if it's not true.

So care to tell me why you've got about 100 friends on your music myspace, meanwhile some garage band made up of kids with no musical experience or hardly any knowledge has 50,000 friends, is signed to an indie label, and tours? Also care to tell me why two American Idol contestants I've known to make it to the top 50 can't start a sustainable career in music, if it's so easy? There are individuals with TV exposure and a lot of talent that can't do it, yet you're making it out to be like it's so easy. Yea, people graduating from Juilliard and American Idol contestants can't make it work, yet you paint it to be Rainbows and Butterflies.

Please, anyone who is considering this, get another degree and do music on the side. You can always switch fully to music if you make it work or enjoy building your music practice...it's much harder the other way around.

While Tim here holds grudges people like me take his business (although they could be more skilled and just as viable a choice,) he doesn't have anything to fall back on when his income diminishes. I, on the other hand, actually benefit from it and optimize my earnings.

Oh, one more thing. Why don't we just look to you for an admission for how not plausible being a "professional musician" is. http://hardcoretetmusic.com/?page_id=302 You made 335 bucks, but it cost you over 600 to tour. How do you even consider that successful work. Assuming that revenue already accounts for your expenses, you made $335 dollars for 4 days of work, and that's not even per member. You spend the majority of your time driving around in an old van and you're not even making minimum wage. It sounds to me like you want to believe you're this touring musician making money, but you're not. You're making dirt. And I'm not saying this to be offensive, but to expose this lie you've portrayed. How can you even consider it a job or a profession? It's all a fallacy.

[oilywrag]

Just to add my small opinion,If some one has the natural apptitude to play an instrument,if age is on there side,where making the wrong choice now doesnt hurt so much later then people should go for it.At least then one can live with out regrets about not trying.As for music degrees=£££££
No!!! right place right time = ££££.To many good guitarists I know ended up flipping burgers or pulling tyres.As for people under cutting people sorry but that is life and sometimes it just aint fair.That happens in all walks of life.Plus you cant beat experience.Some people may disagree but thats what makes the world go round

Cheers Tom

As an after thought so long as people make informed choices then all should be well.

[82Benedetto]

Originally Posted by oilywrag

Just to add my small opinion,If some one has the natural apptitude to play an instrument,if age is on there side,where making the wrong choice now doesnt hurt so much later then people should go for it.At least then one can live with out regrets about not trying.As for music degrees=£££££
No!!! right place right time = ££££.To many good guitarists I know ended up flipping burgers or pulling tyres.As for people under cutting people sorry but that is life and sometimes it just aint fair.That happens in all walks of life.Plus you cant beat experience.Some people may disagree but thats what makes the world go round

Cheers Tom

As an after thought so long as people make informed choices then all should be well.

Well said. Personally, I wouldn't bank everything on a music profession at a young age, but that's not to say one shouldn't try in some form. Also, I completely agree with your assessment of competition and degrees in relation to music.

[timscarey]

Wow,

I'm not really sure how to respond. I apologize for sounding like a douchebag in the first post, thats why I removed it.

I stand by my second post %100.

as for the rest of it......

Reptet is not, nor does it claim to be a "Jazz Combo"

didn't want to do this but.....

I average about $5500 a month between

Teaching privately, playing gigs, recording sessions, producing, arranging (horn parts etc...), transcribing (for other people), doing clinics and workshops all around the country in mostly high schools but also several music schools including CAL ARTS and UNR, summer music workshops including the national guitar workshop, pit orchestras, musical director for theatre productions, and composition for dance and film.... more to come.

I spend money on...

Touring, putting out records.

yes, I'm a confident, sometimes cocky 25 year old on a messageboard, and of all the ways I make money, playing in bars and clubs is the least of them.

What I meant by knoledge is not just theory, it takes a lot more than theory to make a living as a musician, one thing most people need is a Degree, just like with any other field.

My main concerns as a musician are the following.

To keep it moving forward and thriving and to make sure that the next generation has the ability and desire to keep it going after we're all gone. I do my part by teaching... not guitar, music. And by putting out records of new music and touring in able to get it to as many people as possible. I also do my part by listening, reading, and studying music from around the world both old and new to ensure I am as "with it" musically as I can be.

The money is a byproduct.

Damn dude, sorry. but I got you to listen to my music didn't I?

[82Benedetto]

Originally Posted by timscarey

Wow,

I'm not really sure how to respond. I apologize for sounding like a douchebag in the first post, thats why I removed it.

I stand by my second post %100.

as for the rest of it......

Reptet is not, nor does it claim to be a "Jazz Combo"

didn't want to do this but.....

I average about $5500 a month between

Teaching privately, playing gigs, recording sessions, producing, arranging (horn parts etc...), transcribing (for other people), doing clinics and workshops all around the country in mostly high schools but also several music schools including CAL ARTS and UNR, summer music workshops including the national guitar workshop, pit orchestras, musical director for theatre productions, and composition for dance and film.... more to come.

I spend money on...

Touring, putting out records.

yes, I'm a confident, sometimes cocky 25 year old on a messageboard, and of all the ways I make money, playing in bars and clubs is the least of them.

What I meant by knoledge is not just theory, it takes a lot more than theory to make a living as a musician, one thing most people need is a Degree, just like with any other field.

My main concerns as a musician are the following.

To keep it moving forward and thriving and to make sure that the next generation has the ability and desire to keep it going after we're all gone. I do my part by teaching... not guitar, music. And by putting out records of new music and touring in able to get it to as many people as possible. I also do my part by listening, reading, and studying music from around the world both old and new to ensure I am as "with it" musically as I can be.

The money is a byproduct.

Damn dude, sorry. but I got you to listen to my music didn't I?

You brought the scrutiny upon yourself, I'm afraid. As for the degree issue, let me just say Pisano and Jodi Fisher never obtained degrees, nor did many other famous Jazz players, and many of them have taught at institutions of higher education. It's my personal opinion music degrees mean squat unless you're looking for a teaching job at a high school.

Now, let's go back to the subject at hand. About how many hours a week do you work to accomplish all of those things, because that will bring you to the true value. I'm under the impression that anything considered "leisure time" is even used to further your music career (which is what I found when trying to manage mine,) which makes it like you're "working" 24/7.

I'm also curious to know which of those items provides you with health benefits or insurance. Deduct the expenses used to promote yourself, pay for recording and CD services, travel expenses, etc, and you have your net profit.

So, if one approaches it from a business standpoint, of your $66,000 in revenue, after expenses such as paying for a health plan and other "expenses" to support the business, how much profit have you actually made? One must keep in mind, this number will be grossly skewed as we won't even be taking into account the ridiculous amount of work (hours) factored into the equation, or the perceived value of your "time," and tax deferred savings with matching contributions.

I'm not knocking you, but if you're going to come out like that be prepared for what's coming your way. If you love doing it that's fine, but don't exaggerate what is actually encompassed in the music profession. I understand you're 25 and you can say you have a "job" no one else has, but you have to look at you're real earnings and what's going on.

Now, after that's figured out, you may be willing to make X amount of money working absurd hours a week if you truly love it, but the fact of the matter is many people, no matter how much they love it, can not turn music into a 24 hour job. I couldn't deal with it. For me, it was overly stressful and took away a lot of the joy I got from it, and it's the same for many other people.

I was at that point at one age, too. It was great to be young and making more money than most kids my age...but then I figured out my true earnings and looked at the future and decided I wanted more that music could not provide. In my opinion, it's difficult to vacation as a musician. I wanted great health coverage. I wanted to start a business or two. I wanted to go to another country and learn a new language. I wanted a stable lifestyle.

I got everything I wanted, but I still had and have music as a sort of "side" career, and I could start it or stop it whenever I wanted. Best of all, I've played and studied with my Jazz heroes, and I didn't need to be a career musician to accomplish it.

In the end, I suppose it comes down to what you want, but I honestly believe for most people being a career musician and moderating everything it entails is not plausible.

I love music, and jazz in particular, but as much as I love it, making it a 24 hour job is not enjoyable to me.

And Tim, I didn't really listen to your music. I did, however, go to your links to see what all the fuss was about.

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by 82Benedetto

So Tim, in summary let me say this.

You're obviously upset people like myself are even allowed to perform music. You hold yourself in such high esteem, yet you're playing gigs at bars and clubs I could easily take if I offered a lower price. You've got hardly any ratings or views on your videos, yet the guy who arranged "Super Mario Bros. Theme song" for pure enjoyment receives more recognition. Meanwhile, you have cover bands of musicians with no formal training and other jobs making significant amounts of money.

You consistently talk down on people that don't have your degree from a second rate performing arts school (Cornish? rejected from UNT?), but in the end people that love it make it work and you keep providing a great deal of misinformation.

Just quit the pretentious act, my friend. Anyone who "undercuts" you could dismantle your music career. Someone teaching for less could take your students, someone playing for less could take your gigs, and all you can say is "I love it more and I'm more dedicated and I'm better" even if it's not true.

So care to tell me why you've got about 100 friends on your music myspace, meanwhile some garage band made up of kids with no musical experience or hardly any knowledge has 50,000 friends, is signed to an indie label, and tours? Also care to tell me why two American Idol contestants I've known to make it to the top 50 can't start a sustainable career in music, if it's so easy? There are individuals with TV exposure and a lot of talent that can't do it, yet you're making it out to be like it's so easy. Yea, people graduating from Juilliard and American Idol contestants can't make it work, yet you paint it to be Rainbows and Butterflies.

Please, anyone who is considering this, get another degree and do music on the side. You can always switch fully to music if you make it work or enjoy building your music practice...it's much harder the other way around.

While Tim here holds grudges people like me take his business (although they could be more skilled and just as viable a choice,) he doesn't have anything to fall back on when his income diminishes. I, on the other hand, actually benefit from it and optimize my earnings.

Oh, one more thing. Why don't we just look to you for an admission for how not plausible being a "professional musician" is. Tour | Hardcoretet You made 335 bucks, but it cost you over 600 to tour. How do you even consider that successful work. Assuming that revenue already accounts for your expenses, you made $335 dollars for 4 days of work, and that's not even per member. You spend the majority of your time driving around in an old van and you're not even making minimum wage. It sounds to me like you want to believe you're this touring musician making money, but you're not. You're making dirt. And I'm not saying this to be offensive, but to expose this lie you've portrayed. How can you even consider it a job or a profession? It's all a fallacy.

I have to respond to this seperatley

You don't know what kinds of gigs I play, and no, you couldn't take them, becuse you don't have a following in seattle, and bass isn't your primary instrument.

I don't talk down to people without degrees, I don't know where that came from. I do however, like to be the guy in support of going to school and working hard to become a better musician, and I do beleive that completing a music degree makes you a more skilled musician in most cases. I'm not sure what kind of misinformation you are refering to.

I charge more than most people I know for lessons and have had 40-50 students a week consistantly for the last 3 years, even though I tour 2 months out of the year, they sill want me as their teacher when I get back. and, here I go being cocky again, but for a bass player to take my gigs, it wouldn't mater how little he charged, he would have to be better than me and have better relationships with my musical friends than I do. The undercutting thing is just somthing I've had an opinion on for a while, not because I think the gig should go to the "better musician" who would in turn charge more, but because most bars and clubs rip musicians off and treat them like shit.... why? because they know that they can easily find someone else who will play for less money. I realize that is the reality but, imagine a country where EVERYONE valued music, that wasn't third world.


Myspace is rad, I get gigs and students from that thing all the time. Anyway, the "music industry" is not how I gauge my success, neither is money for that matter. I'm 25, I'm not a hot chick, I rarley write pop songs, my voice is scratchy cause I smoke... It's not going to happen, I know that. But, I could play bass for them, or act as musical director (some day) see, I'm a bass player, I don't push my own name as a performer, nor do I promote the bands that I don't write music for. The only stuff I share online is my original music that I never expect to make tons of cash from (although that would be nice)

I never claimed this to be easy.

Let's see... a relativley unknown indy jazz group decides to drive up and down the coast playing gigs for a week. Do you think we actually thought we where going to make money? or that that was even a possibility? It was fun and we sold some records and made some friends, I'm just glad everyone in that band was down to do it. and I'm glad that we all make enough cash to be able to do that and miss a week of work.

Alright, I'm done.

[timscarey]

You are very pragmatic and thank you for the advice, but I love my work, and my life. I'm not planning on having any kids anytime soon and I don't feel like I've "arrived", I'm still working, I have a lot of life left and a lot of support. you're not the first person who has tried to convince me that what I'm doing is just going to make me hate music. I'm not giving up, I have a lot of older people in my life who have made it as musicians and are doing a lot to help me succeed, not to mention, my career has be upwardly mobile thus far, what reasons do I have to think that that will change any time soon? and yes, I have no free time.... except when I'm playing.

[82Benedetto]

Please refer to my most recent post first.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this, but you're entitled to your opinion. I can tell you though, from personal experience and from seeing it happen to other people, that a music degree means nothing and someone will take your job even if they aren't as good as you, so long as they are competent and willing to work for less.

Simply put, it's like this. If you're not a rockstar with an irreplaceable voice, you're an interchangeable piece of a bigger puzzle.

I've taken gigs and jobs because of it (from players with degrees, those charging too much, even just filling in for a band for less because their guitarist or bassist couldn't make a gig...have even been offered permanent positions by doing it that way, I ended up taking spots because I "was cheaper.") I've taught privately and with music stores because I communicated information more efficiently to students and had better lesson design. It's all a business. You're being foolish if you think your degree from an unknown arts school is job security.

By the way, I do play bass....and have played or do play all of the instruments you play... plus tenor sax. That's not even relevant though.

[82Benedetto]

Originally Posted by timscarey

You are very pragmatic and thank you for the advice, but I love my work, and my life. I'm not planning on having any kids anytime soon and I don't feel like I've "arrived", I'm still working, I have a lot of life left and a lot of support. you're not the first person who has tried to convince me that what I'm doing is just going to make me hate music. I'm not giving up, I have a lot of older people in my life who have made it as musicians and are doing a lot to help me succeed, not to mention, my career has be upwardly mobile thus far, what reasons do I have to think that that will change any time soon? and yes, I have no free time.... except when I'm playing.

I never once said you would hate what you're doing, and I never once told you to give up. You're awfully quick to jump to conclusions, though...having second thoughts? I said it may be fine for you if you love it, but you're failing to communicate to other people, particularly young individuals, the amount of work that is actually encompassed in building a music career. You make it sound like you go to school for 4 years, get a degree in music, and you're good to go. It doesn't happen like that. Anyway, Not everyone is willing to work like a dog, no matter how much they love music. Again, I never said give up, but the way you portray yourself is a bit misleading. I wouldn't consider myself to be "living the dream" if I didn't make a penny on my last out of state tour....

But hey, I'd love it if you answered my questions about the breakdown of your revenue. You have a health plan?

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by 82Benedetto

you're an interchangeable piece of a bigger puzzle.

You're being foolish if you think your degree from an unknown arts school is job security.

Every single microsoft emplyee is an interchangable peice of a bigger puzzle are they not? that description could be used on pretty much any job.

The peice of paper is not my job security, it's the skills I cultivated that the piece of paper represent. Not to mention... do you think I would have been hired as a bass teacher at the national guitar workshop if I didn't get a degree. Who do you think they called to find the guy to fill the seattle campus?.... Cornish.

[82Benedetto]

Originally Posted by timscarey

Every single microsoft emplyee is an interchangable peice of a bigger puzzle are they not? that description could be used on pretty much any job.

The peice of paper is not my job security, it's the skills I cultivated that the piece of paper represent. Not to mention... do you think I would have been hired as a bass teacher at the national guitar workshop if I didn't get a degree. Who do you think they called to find the guy to fill the seattle campus?.... Cornish.

Whether you like it or not, and whether or not it's fair, a degree for a field like international business is much more important for a job than a music degree for a music related job. Has anyone blindly hired you because you have a degree from Cornish, or do they make you play first? Because in my experience, they've always chosen the best player, degree or not.

As for the hiring policies of NGW, I don't know how they operate...I'm not familiar with them. However, (I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a music degree) if Victor Wooten or another player was available, I'm sure they'd take them and your degree wouldn't mean jack. Anyway, unless NGW was paying you a ridiculous amount of money, I hardly see how a limited teaching position somehow validates your degree. Did your degree get you a few extra bucks for teaching at NGW for week? Aside from that, what's the benefit?

Anyway, care to break down your revenue and tell us here if you have a health plan?

[timscarey]

yeah, most summer camps and temporary teaching gigs are gotten on resume alone. and yeah, i'm really good at the bass, but I got that way in large part to spending 8 hours a day for 5 years surrounded by professional musicians (college)

and yes, I do have a health plan, it's over priced and doesn't cover much, but I have one. I also put money away and date girls with good jobs.

Man, you really value money, like, above all else huh? I came from rural america and had no money at all growing up, I view my situation as better than I could have ever dreamed of, I'm happy, and the future looks bright.

Funny thing, Steve Novchek, from NGW does have a degree and actually taught at cornish while I was there.

[82Benedetto]

Originally Posted by timscarey

yeah, most summer camps and temporary teaching gigs are gotten on resume alone. and yeah, i'm really good at the bass, but I got that way in large part to spending 8 hours a day for 5 years surrounded by professional musicians (college)

and yes, I do have a health plan, it's over priced and doesn't cover much, but I have one. I also put money away and date girls with good jobs.

Man, you really value money, like, above all else huh? I came from rural america and had no money at all growing up, I view my situation as better than I could have ever dreamed of, I'm happy, and the future looks bright.

Funny thing, Steve Novchek, from NGW does have a degree and actually taught at cornish while I was there.

I've never been involved with any camps, but any music related gig, I've had to play for. You sure Steve didn't favor you because he knew you from Cornish....in which case it would be your connections and not your degree.

And I don't value money; I value a high quality of life. It's my personal opinion that a high quality of life is more easily achievable when you don't have to worry about money so much, or what your health plan will cover, or if you'll be making enough money to cover the bills or if you'll even have your job in a month from now. You might not want to hear this, but I believe quality of life suffers as a musician.

[timscarey]

i thank you very much for th earument, it's forcing me to really defend myself and actually making me more cirtain that im on the right track in some ways and need to take another look at some aspects of my day to day.

i agree a music degree really just comes down to connections.

i would also like to add that for me personally, if I hadn't gone to cornish, my family would not have been able to afford to send me to college at all, my siblings did't go to college. I got my first 3 years of music school for free and only paid 10,000 for the last 2 years. scholarships based on paying ability. business school was never really an option for me.

again, thank you, and sorry i was a dick eariler.

[82Benedetto]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, either, and I'm certainly not trying to downplay what it is you're trying to do.

I'm simply saying it's an incredibly large feat, and more power to you for being well on your way. It takes a great deal of effort and mental fortitude. I just think a lot of people don't realize how truly difficult it is and go into the field without knowing what they will have to do, and once they discover how much work it entails they might discover that particular aspect might not be for them.

Different strokes for different folks. Regardless of the path someone chooses, they can and should create and share their music whether they be a full time, working musician, or one pursuing it passionately on the side.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Originally Posted by 82Benedetto

By the way, I do play bass....and have played or do play all of the instruments you play... plus tenor sax.

wow, next you're gonna whip it out and compare size? you sound like a real...

[Reg]

I agree... This discourse was, obviously a great example of true colors, and hopefully will open eyes as to how choices in life affect what becomes your personal meaning of life, especial those who consider themselves the bearers of the highest meanings of life... Thanks Reg

[82Benedetto]

@Baltar and Reg-

I do hope you read every post. You do realize I was not on the offensive, right?

Tim tried to justify his opinion by stating that "I didn't even play bass or other instruments." And I responded saying I did. That's a problem... why? I didn't bring it up as a bragging point....it was brought up by another person and I set the record straight.

And Reg, your entire statement is completely off base and very offensive. I don't see how you could jump to such conclusions about me...is it because I disagreed with you earlier in the thread, so you have to resort to personal attacks? I really don't get what you're trying to prove.

This was never a pissing contest. It was, however, a healthy debate regarding the music profession. Please, don't try to make it seem like the former. I will not tolerate the lack of decorum. Thank you.

Completely uncalled for and totally unnecessary. Both posts have been reported.

[fep]

Originally Posted by 82Benedetto

@Baltar and Reg-

Completely uncalled for and totally unnecessary. Both posts have been reported.

That is ridiculous, especially in light of your meanspirited and inflamatory attacks...

Originally Posted by 82Benedetto

Kid, you're 25. You don't know the real world yet.


You're a kid, you're young, and you have no idea what you're talking about.


You can cry all you want, but you're wrong. There are REAL professional musicians that will agree with me (big names, not 25 year olds playing in mediocre jazz combos


I've met, played with, and talked to some very prominent and interesting people. They will tell you you're absolutely full of it.


You've got hardly any ratings or views on your videos


So care to tell me why you've got about 100 friends on your music myspace


You spend the majority of your time driving around in an old van and you're not even making minimum wage. It sounds to me like you want to believe you're this touring musician making money, but you're not. You're making dirt. And I'm not saying this to be offensive, but to expose this lie you've portrayed. How can you even consider it a job or a profession? It's all a fallacy.

[82Benedetto]

That assessment came after his original post, which he removed, and even admitted himself was out of line. Please, go back and read.

When someone states you shouldn't be taking gigs if you're not a full time musician and shouldn't be playing, then claims to be "living the life" when it's absolutely not the truth, how do you think it should be handled.

Fact: Not a strong social networking following.
Fact: Was not profitable on last tour.

Opinion: Poster was blatantly misleading.

Inflamatory? I don't believe so. A heated debate with hard truth coming from both sides, yes. Just because something isn't pleasant to hear does not mean it shouldn't be heard.

Just remember, I didn't even push this until it was said part time musicians shouldn't be playing and that we're "crappy" substitutes.

Anyway, since the debate I believe Tim and I have resolved it. He apologized for his original, out of line posts and I apologized for my brashness and also attempted to communicate I was not attempting to put him down (please read my latter posts, where I even clarified some of these points.) If you'd like, I could even point you to where Tim thanked me for my hard debate. I even gave him kudos for coming as far as he has, stating the vast majority of people can't do it. I just felt some aspects of the profession weren't communicated properly.

Anyway, at least we both contributed thoughtful ideas to the conversation. You can't say the debate didn't present a host of things worth considering. Reg and Balter Hornbeek, however, are simply continuing a trend of trolling. I implore you to look at Hornbeek's post history and see how many times he called people "tool" or ragged on them. He's just trying to troll and blow up a debate into something it wasn't.

Yea, you know what, I'm willing to admit I was rude at points in my debate with Tim and Tim admitted the same, but that doesn't change the wealth of information and healthy debate that was present.

Now, can you tell me what the last two posts contributed to the thread?

[Reg]

Hey Benedetto... How goes... I'm sorry if you took my last post personal, you assume a lot...So for clarification, my last post was directed towards everyone except Benedetto, there feel better... Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

So, JazzMom, do your kids bicker like this?

[Sailor]

After all this...sticking to my original position of getting a degree in Music Ed....you get all the history, theory, performance, etc....and can teach K-12, anywhere, (school, camp, private, stores) while you pursue your "dream".

Might not make you a better jazz player but you'll know what you're talking about and can teach and play with a "classic" education.

Sailor

[JohnW400]

Hey Tim, I'm coming out to live by you . Sounds like theres work!!!!


I'm happy that people are making it. I'm happy everytime I see someone beat the odds and make a good living at music, especially if it's jazz.