Jazz Parent

[Goofsus4]

All businesses need accountants. You get an accounting degree and it's easy to find work as an accountant. To Tim's point, a better analogy would be to ask how many people getting an accounting degree start their own CPA practice? Now you are back to fep's 2%.

Recorded music is a real problem too. If music could only be experienced through live performance, then there would be far more opportunities for musicians I'm sure. Accountancy sort of suffered a similar set back upon the introduction of the personal computer and spreadsheet software like Lotus or Excel. One accountant now has the computing power of thousands. I'm sure that probably cut into accountant jobs, at least lower level accountant/bookeeping type jobs at some point.

[Reg]

There's nothing wrong with failing... most of the more talented people I've meet in life, especially in jazz, have a lot of failures to their credit. Anyone can make money... put away your morals and do what has to be done. If your only worried about his financial independence, as long as the college is accredited, four years of college nowadays is basically only a high school extension...it's almost required. If you make your son aware of how the world works, your his best teacher, along with what he learns from four years of college, he should be able to make his own choice, both financially and philosophically.
Reg

[Drumbler]

Everyone should be an accountant.

What the world needs is more jazz playing bean-counters.

[cosmic gumbo]

Most intelligent women know that guys who want to be jazz musicians will be losers, and stay away from them as husband material. The dumb ones find themselves as working wives with no future.

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Most intelligent women know that guys who want to be jazz musicians will be losers, and stay away from them as husband material.

All the more reason to become a jazz musician.

On a side note, I read the other day that the #1 reason for divorce is marriage in the first place.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Most intelligent women know that guys who want to be jazz musicians will be losers, and stay away from them as husband material. The dumb ones find themselves as working wives with no future.

Way funny... I guess evolutionistically we'll be gone soon enough...Reg

[cosmic gumbo]

I remember when I thought a guitar was better than a woman, but then I discovered a new kind of wood....

[Reg]

This is not for the concerned parent, I've made my post earlier.
This post is starting to feel like I'm at a gig... one of the reasons I dig playing, jazz players to know how to enjoy themselves, in pretty much any situation, we have a different view of life...I like it... Cosmic gumbo... where you playin Fat Tues., I'm comin to hang after my gig...Reg

[JazzMom]

I am really getting bummed out about all of this. He still has a few more auditions to go and already I am feeling he should just go with a more practical major. However, his dedication to his music has kept him out of trouble through high school and he is happiest when he is playing his music with others. He does have a desire to become a teacher but he wants to dedicate himself to performance first and see where that takes him...nowhere (on a greyhound, probably!)

[JohnW400]

If it's any help, after I left school in my junior year (ran out of money) I got a job and worked my way up to manage an auto part's store which was a springboard to other jobs, some with multinational companies.

I always had two jobs though. One as a part time pro musician and the other, the dreaded day job. I have done some pretty interesting gigs and even a couple of record dates and made some cash in the process.

I'm able to earn enough to support myself and my wife, buy a house and pay it off early, buy equipment and have a savings account.


As long as he gets a degree in something he should do fine.

[Solidbody]

One of my boys graduated high school last year. He had just started playing guitar the year before and was progressing very slowly.
We were discussing what he wanted to do for a living and he said he'd like to record people and run a studio. (Recording engineer). I told him that he needs to know something about music, it's history and how it is put together.
So the first two years he's taking music theory, piano, music history, etc. on his way to get an associates in music. He will at that time be able to teach music in a private setting. His next two years will either be at a 4 year school for Sound Engineering or a "recording school".
He has no desire to be famous, or make unimaginable amounts of money. He just wants to do what he likes. Which, I think, is the most important.
BTW, he's getting much better at guitar.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

I went to William Paterson University in the late 70's. Out of the entire Jazz performance class there are only 2 people that I know of that make their living soley by playing and/or teaching. One is a sax player, Bill Evans. He's actually quite famous. The other is Rick Crane a bass player.

Wow. I know he's "the other" Bill Evans, but he is a fantastic sax player. It reminds me of a story of a friend: she was studying classical piano as a teenager in the RCM (which is the standard way to do for classic music in Canada). At their regular recitals she always came in second place to this other girl: Angela Hewitt (who is now one of the top classical pianists in the world)!

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Wow. I know he's "the other" Bill Evans, but he is a fantastic sax player. It reminds me of a story of a friend: she was studying classical piano as a teenager in the RCM (which is the standard way to do for classic music in Canada). At their regular recitals she always came in second place to this other girl: Angela Hewitt (who is now one of the top classical pianists in the world)!

The director of the music department brought in Roland Kirk to hear Bill play. (I think that's who came). Next thing you know some pretty big doors got opened for Mr Evans. He can play. I was also there with John Pizzarelli. I forgot to mention him. He wasn't there on guitar either. I mean , his father already taught him that instrument .

There are probably others that I don't remember. I think I missed drummer Bill Stewart by a year or two. I believe he started in '81-82 or so.

All in all. back in the 70-80"s William Patterson had a real hip music department going on.

Here's some of the staff at the time (that I can remember)

Thad Jones
Rufus Reed
Dave Samuels
Chico Mendoza
Bucky P
Harry Leahey
Joe Cinderella
Helen Miles (vocals)

Thad Jones had left by the time I got there but I was lucky enough to play in ensembles taught by Rufus, Dave and Helen Miles. Helen's ensembles were for the vocalists but I played in the backup band.

Good overall experience.

I also played in the guitar ensemble under the direction of a guy named Ted Clancy. I *think* Bob DeVos gave a class or two to that group but we also had master classes with Bucky.

[woyvel]

Mom,

Before getting too discouraged, talk to the advisers at each school and see how many students start out with performance majors and later change. Ask what other majors are available to which he might possibly make a transition. Look into the possibility of a dual major. Explore more than just the music program and look at the student life and diversity (or lack thereof) to see what's right for you and your son. The two of you may not agree on your findings, but there's more to going to college for music than just the music department.

[Reg]

Dear jazz Mom....We all love and believe music to be right up there with German existentialism and all musicians have incredible cogitative abilities...were all delusional...at least I am... You don't just go to college to get financial rewards...that's pretty shallow. Most people that are fortunate enough to attend college become aware of the many aspects of how the world works, understand the difference between Morals and Ethics, and have time to socially develop. (I'm not talking about alcohol awareness.) This process of awareness takes the average person in the usa about 20 years in the work force, if you work at it and most don't. As I and many other have said; four years of college is just an extension of High School, the minimum in most work forces. In many states you can't even teach yet. To cover the financial aspect, make sure the college is accredit nationally. When he's finished with his four years at least he can make an educated decision of what career to pursue...Reg

[Belman]

Dear Jazz Parent,
I'm not qualified to discuss a career as a professional musician since I'm not good enough to earn money busking on the street. But I do know something about kids, since I have three of them myself. And I know a lot about education and career planning, having earned multiple degrees and having personally hired, mentored and managed dozens of college graduates over the years. So let me come at this from that perspective....

First, congratulations on being a good parent. You are worried about your kid's future, which is as it should be. Parents worry about their kids. But congratulations also for having a child who has a passion and an ambition. You may not believe his passion will pay the bills -- and maybe it won't -- but I cannot count how many young adults lack any focus or passion of any kind. They change majors as often as they change clothes. They come out of college with no sense of what they want. You've raised a son who cares deeply about something more meaningful than video games, beer and girls.

Second, be happy that your son's passion is something he can take with him through life. Even if he never has a single paying gig, music is something he can enjoy forever. That's not always true -- even for those who pursue lucrative, safe professions. Example: A good friend of mine was a successful doctor -- a profession he loved. But he became fed up with the insurance companies, HMOs, liability lawyers, and all those things that have nothing to do with medicine. So he walked out on his passion and took a job at a medical equipment company. My friend can't practice surgery at home, but your son will always be able to play guitar.

Third, don't worry so much about the fact that today -- at 17 or 18 -- he says he doesn't want to teach or put his musical talents and knowledge to something other than performance. He's still a teenager and he's got a dream. He'll learn about paying bills when they arrive. We all do.

My point is, I think you're both doing remarkably well in your respective roles.

[Sailor]

Great discussion. I would truly suggest getting a Music ED. Degree. I did...You can teach music K-12 while aspiring towards performance/personal goals. I also think music ed. majors learn a lot more about music history, psychology, philosophy, etc...and how to translate music to many styles and instruments and different ensemble groupings. We NEED good teachers!!

Best Wishes, Sailor

[Drumbler]

A lot of fine musicians have attended William Patterson.

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

A lot of fine musicians have attended William Patterson.

Where you there? If so , when

[Drumbler]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Where you there? If so , when

Not me. But I've heard that a lot of good musicians have gone there.

The name has come up fairly often and you mentioned it again. I knew that Rufus Reid had been there years ago. Is it still good?

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Not me. But I've heard that a lot of good musicians have gone there.

The name has come up fairly often and you mentioned it again. I knew that Rufus Reid had been there years ago. Is it still good?

I think Rufus retired. I don't know how they are as I'm out of there almost 30 years. They used to have a kick ass percusson ensemble as well.

[82Benedetto]

I would advise against it for a number of reasons. While there are people that make a living playing music, it can be very difficult, stressful, and it has its caveats.

I was in the same position in high school a number of years ago. I played jazz guitar in school, dominated all of our music classes, and auditioned and was accepted into a number of great schools. However, after meeting with many musicians and discussing my aspirations, it just seemed improbable jazz guitar would provide a stable living.

Ultimately,I decided against it.

I went to community college and ended up transferring to a prominent business school. All the while, I was still pursuing music.

I taught and gigged, and though I loved playing music, turning it into a living was labor intensive and it made me really dislike trying to turn music into a career. I even employed unconventional methods to boost my profitability, and though they worked it just wasn't enjoyable.

I can honestly say I enjoy the other field I chose and the stability of the work in it. Perhaps, most importantly, I'm still not prohibited from teaching or playing. The great thing about it is, I still do, but on my schedule. It's made things more enjoyable and I don't have to associate music with living.

I love jazz; I still play it and teach it. Thankfully, I'm not stressing about the business aspect of it because I'm making money in other ways.

Also, you have to consider the "Real" earnings of a musician. Where are the health benefits, retirement plans, matching employer contributions? That's not to say good money can't be made, but now you have to worry about optimizing it as a musician.

And then, there's the explosion of the internet, where anyone can make and distribute music and the degree really doesn't mean anything.

I would recommend he find another, more stable major he's interested in. He can still study music on campus, too. He can take all of the classes and learn the same things, but in the end it's the skills that talk.

I've never once heard of a musician gaining prominence because of the school he went to or the degree he's received. In the end, if he chooses music, it will all come down to his skill level and how he markets himself.

[Drumbler]

And no doubt, had you not followed your chosen career, you would not be playing a 1982 Benedetto!

If you want to be a jazz performer do what John Pizzarelli did. (First, have a father who is a jazz great teach you how to play jazz.)

Then...go to college for 2 1/2 years and drop out. Become a star!

http://www.jazzreview.com/articledetails.cfm?ID=3069

JazzReview: Did you go to college?

John Pizzarelli: I went to the University of Tampa for three semesters.

JazzReview: Why there?

John Pizzarelli: They accepted me! (He laughed.) It’s true! And then I went to William Paterson for two semesters. My major was music and music education.

JazzReview: Do you think you’ll ever teach someday?

John Pizzarelli: No, I don’t want to teach music. I‘m not a good teacher of music. But I’m going to do a book about basic seven-string guitar playing.

JazzReview: When?

John Pizzarelli: Next week hopefully. I’m in the process of doing that book for Hall Leonard Publishing, and I have an instructional video on Mel Bay that’s actually out and available.



Now, if your father is not a jazz great who taught you jazz, then perhaps a more practical degree would be better.

[82Benedetto]

And, if I recall correctly, Pizzarelli states he really doesn't even know the theory behind what he plays...it's all ear, and he arguably has some of the catchiest licks

And, though I'm not a fan of Metheny, some consider him to be one of the greatest ever and he was in the University of Miami for about a semester.

[Goofsus4]

82Benedetto: what a fine, well-reasoned post.

[fep]

Originally Posted by 82Benedetto

I went to community college and ended up transferring to a prominent business school. All the while, I was still pursuing music.

I taught and gigged, and though I loved playing music, turning it into a living was labor intensive and it made me really dislike trying to turn music into a career. I even employed unconventional methods to boost my profitability, and though they worked it just wasn't enjoyable.

I can honestly say I enjoy the other field I chose and the stability of the work in it. Perhaps, most importantly, I'm still not prohibited from teaching or playing. The great thing about it is, I still do, but on my schedule. It's made things more enjoyable and I don't have to associate music with living.

I love jazz; I still play it and teach it. Thankfully, I'm not stressing about the business aspect of it because I'm making money in other ways.

I graduated with a degree in economics. During college I had been making a little money playing music in bands. I spent the next 3 years after college having a go at being a professional musician. I didn't like the financial struggle and the general uncertain future that I was facing. I definately wasn't happy with the path I was on.

I then changed careers, used my degree and had a successful career. I pursue music as a hobby and a passion. I'm happier now than pretty much any other time of my life (except for maybe those years I was in college, those were good times).

[Reg]

Hey fep and Benedetto wouldn't want to disagree with your reasons why you did what you did, I can relate and if to be happy or financially successful is, (pretty subjective) your goal or raise a family, maybe even more important, so be it. But to think that to be happy and have passion are related to financial success, what ever that is... is a big part of why jazz and the arts in general are struggling in the states. Granted some people stress and some don't and if you choose to raise a family, being a musician or a performance based career creates a different life style. I know plenty of people in the music business and they own homes, have put their children through college, travel and have intelligent conversations and have an appreciation of life... To become proficient at anything it's pretty much excepted that it takes 10,000 hours or ten years, and that's once you have some skills. There are different opinions of what happiness is and
I for one don't rely on money to define that. I respect your opinions and choices in life and I'm sure it's very helpful for a concerned parent...
The college years...yea they were fun... One point most agree on, is to attend college... Reg

[fep]

Reg,

I think what is more important than money to achieve happiness, at least to me, is being successful. And that can be measured in many ways and is probably different for each person.

For me, having perhaps only average talent for music, being successful in a music career was/is a real long shot.

Being successful in other aspects of my life are much more attainable.

And, I consider my hobby of music to be a big success.

[Reg]

He fep... I respect and admire your point of view... really. We're headed into that philosophical arena that most stay away from, because you have to make decisions about yourself and what you believe human beings to be etc...
And as most decide, happiness is not a bad choice, I agree. The only point I would add is... another time. Some how I doubt you have average talent, music requires to much cogitative ability...Look forward to future posts...Reg

[82Benedetto]

@ Goofsus4: Thank you.

@ Reg: I'm not downing on his passion for jazz...I have the same passion...but your reason is certainly not why jazz has lost prominence over the years. In fact, I would go as far to say it's making a comeback, particularly due to the openness of the internet.

Now I never said passion or happiness were related to financial success, but you have to see the reality here; financial success certainly contributes a great bit. It's my personal opinion that life is easier, more enjoyable, and less stressful when you've got a stable income, health benefits, a retirement plan, a useful resume, leverage power so you can negotiate your working environment (remote working ).

And, perhaps the most overlooked thing here is that it's much easier for the boy to pursue music and his passion if he's unsatisfied with his career path. Good luck getting into college and rebuilding when you're 30 and you've found your line of work isn't financially plausible.

Basically, I think when you turn music into livelihood you're running an impossible one man business. You're working overtime ALL the time in every aspect. You have to move around more often than not, so good luck starting a family if that's important to you. Not to mention, the music space was already so over saturated with competition and it just continues to grow. More and more schools are offering varying music degrees, anyone can go on Berklee.com and get a distance learning certificate, youtube and myspace and home recording are completely dismantling the professional business, and quite honestly a music degree from one of those schools is not going to put you ahead of someone who can play their butt off or is willing to work for less than you.

One more note; I think that's something inherent with things such as music. I don't think they are meant to be "professions." Muses, perhaps, but not professions. When you have so many people passionate about one thing, there will always be those willing to play for next to nothing because they love to do it, and when you're trying to support yourself that's a significant obstacle. It's all competition and economics.

For example, when I play I don't have to charge as much as someone doing it for a living; it's not a business to me. Because I love to do it, I can go and grab a gig because I'm willing to play for less than another person (it happens all of the time.) I can play, pretty much, whenever I want to and still make money doing it, and I love it more than I ever did trying to make it my sole source of income.