Bruno/Orberg/Conti v. Berkleemusic

cmkaco · #1 12-09-2009, 07:05 PM

I rank myself an utter beginner, despite about 4 years of guitar lessons a number of years ago (mostly fingerstyle) and 8 years of piano lessons (when I was a kid - a long time ago). My problem seems to be that I can brute force my learning so that I can play a song, if I practice enough, but I never seem to be able to make music. Additionally, if I stop practicing that song, within about a week, I forget everything, and it is like I never knew it at all. So, when I start to learn a new song, I forget the old one, and when I stop playing the new one, I forget that too.

I just finished building two archtop jazz guitars (one for me and one for a friend, as a gift) and I have a renewed interest in learning guitar.

While I am intrigued by the "no scales, no modes" assertions of Bruno, and Conti's online learning sites (not sure what Orberg is all about), I am also a little skeptical about not learning the language of music. I recently saw an ad for Berkleemusic's online courses. These seem to be like college level classes in individual techniques (scales, chords, etc.) and the theory behind them. However, they are quite expensive, and I am wondering if anybody has ever tried them, and can compare them to the jazz education one would recieve compared to something like Jimmy Bruno's or Robert Conti's sites, which I have seen very highly reviewed. I don't want to spend a ton of money and come out with a college level education in theory, but still not be able to play anything. On the other hand, I don't want to learn to play songs, and then not be able to play with a group, if somebody says, can you play that in G?

Thanks for your help.

princeplanet · #2 12-09-2009, 10:17 PM

Bruno is not anti theory or scales, seems you would still need to be au fait with it all. I think he's about less emphasis on these things while you're learning to play music. It has merit. But then so does knowing all your scales and theory inside out. Choose what suits your expectation from learning.

GodinFan · #3 12-09-2009, 11:18 PM

Bruno's plan is quite cost effective IMO, and the results I'm getting are worth every penny.

derek · #4 12-10-2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodinFan

Bruno's plan is quite cost effective IMO, and the results I'm getting are worth every penny.

I think it an easy choice, and I have heard the same from a dozen others. GodinFan hits the nail on the head. Cost effective and good results. Berklee online is no doubt a quality program, but it is very expensive.

Berklee on campus is probably the best option, but how many of us can leave family/work for a few years at $30k or more per year. I would strongly recommend Bruno. Orberg's site is done by the same people as Bruno, and he is popular in Europe, so they are killing two birds with one stone. However, Andres does not have Bruno's resume or depth imo.

Reg · #5 01-04-2010, 08:33 PM

If you want to play jazz by your self, you can do anything you want. But if you want to play with other Jazz players...You need to put the time in, it does not matter how much talent you have. Buy time I mean, after you've mastered your instrument.You can learn theory anywhere, as long as you get the basics. Learn all three minor scales and all their modes. Build chords on each note of each scale, ( seven chords for each minor scale...21 chords all together. Build the chords all the way up to the 13th.) There is more but this is the basics. The language of jazz developed in the 70's at Berklee is pretty much everywhere now, some groups don't use it all, but they understand it, and the system used to come up with the language does continue to work. A good Teacher is helpful, bad habits are hard to break. Good luck...Reg

adamhaas · #6 01-04-2010, 09:50 PM

I have been playing for many years, and although I have listened to jazz for 14 years, I have only recently started to delve into playing it. And if I have learned anything, its that there are MANY effective ways of learning to play jazz. It's a matter of finding the method that works for you. The subject matter is very detailed and very deep so depending on your natural talent and how you learn, the best avenue for learning is going to change from person to person.

Having said all that, I was given a 3-month gift certificate to Jimmy Bruno's Guitar Institute ($60) and I am thrilled with what I have learned and what I am able to do in only little over a week. As some folks have pointed out, some of the "why this works" is not presented but that is easy enough to go back and learn. Jimmy's method teaches you to make music much more than how to analyze it. Its a different approach that may work for you. I approach life in a very analytical way so I would like to, and will, go back and learn some of the theory that is at work but I am certainly very pleased with what I have learned and am very excited with each new lesson.

whippersnapper · #7 01-05-2010, 05:45 AM

I don't really think Jimmy is 'anti-theory'. He just tells you easier way to think of things. I have some of his old DVD's and he mentions thinking of a melodic minor scale as a dorian with a #7 and although, I know full well what a melodic minor scale is theory wise I think the dorian #7 thing is a lot easier and quicker on the fly...

runnerlk · #8 01-05-2010, 05:46 PM

I have been a student of the Burno method for a little over a year having played for about 3 years prior. He is an advocate of knowing theory and being able to read standard notation. However, he is a no nonsense teacher with many years of teaching and knowing what works. He will say things like "don't over think" and just play. It took me over a year to get through Improv level 1 but it was well worth it. Now when I solo or comp there is actually a method to my madness. The forums are great way to ask questions when you're stuck. Just an overall great way to learn.

guitarplayer007 · #9 01-06-2010, 07:50 AM

Yes i agree the Bruno method is the quickest way to learn how to improv in jazz style. I have now applied it to rock and blues and love it. I'm so thankful i stumbled accross the site 2 yrs ago!

gersdal · #10 01-07-2010, 05:13 AM

J Bruno's dvd "No nonsense jazz" is a indicator of him as a teacher, I guess. I found it ok, but I'm not a fan (there is a few of those here at JazzGuitar).

Mike J. · #11 01-07-2010, 09:42 AM

I met Jimmy personally back in the year 2000 when I was still working in the musical branch. Jimmy was presenting 7-string Benedetto guitars at our booth at the musical tradefare and we had enough time during the week he played, to talk about Jazz and theory. One evening, we were taking a drink at the hotel bar and he explained some Drop2 stuff to me writing it on a napkin. This guy is awesomely cool and a very good-natured person. Unfortunately, I missed to keep in touch with Jimmy.

I have taken several looks at the JBGI site and it looks attractive to me. The only thing holding me back from signing up to the JBGI is that I fear Jimmy is concentrating to much on soloing concepts - at least this is what I think from watching the sample lessons.

Can anyone here confirm or disprove. I'd love to learn more stuff on chords and tunes. Is the program well balanced? Furthermore can anyone here tell me how far he's covering theory? I mean, I totally like that he says "music first" which is what I did over the past 20 years...but I would also appreciate receiving some kind of theoretical explanation of what is going on during the lesson.

guitarplayer007 · #12 01-07-2010, 09:46 AM

Yes Jimmy analizes many tunes and show how to creat chord melodies as well.
Ken

adamhaas · #13 01-07-2010, 10:00 AM

Hello Mike, I am a new student (fitst 10 lessons in Improv 1) at the JBGI and as I stated earlier, I really enjoy it. As for as the focus, yes, the focus is on improvisation. Jimmy explains that a vast majority of his students over the years have wanted to know about that aspect of playing more than any other so that is where he focuses. Having said that, there is a fairly robust section on chords and chordal theory that is separate from the 4 improv levels. In explaining the structure, he says that the chord section should be a supplement to the imprv and done "with" the improv and not "instead of". As for his approach, he first teaches 4 dom7 voicings on the fret board and shows how those are made and how maj7 and min7 derive from there. That is an overly simplified explanation of what he is doing, but he is very through in dealing with how to create chords and how they should be used.

Hope this helps...

Mike J. · #14 01-07-2010, 02:58 PM

Thank you very much for taking the time and explaining things and how they work over at JBGI. It really sounds like a thourough method Jimmy applies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamhaas

Hello Mike, I am a new student (fitst 10 lessons in Improv 1) at the JBGI and as I stated earlier, I really enjoy it. As for as the focus, yes, the focus is on improvisation. Jimmy explains that a vast majority of his students over the years have wanted to know about that aspect of playing more than any other so that is where he focuses. Having said that, there is a fairly robust section on chords and chordal theory that is separate from the 4 improv levels. In explaining the structure, he says that the chord section should be a supplement to the imprv and done "with" the improv and not "instead of". As for his approach, he first teaches 4 dom7 voicings on the fret board and shows how those are made and how maj7 and min7 derive from there. That is an overly simplified explanation of what he is doing, but he is very through in dealing with how to create chords and how they should be used.

Hope this helps...

guitarplayer007 · #15 01-07-2010, 03:25 PM

yes it is very comprehensive

fep · #16 01-07-2010, 03:31 PM

I'm intrigued with Bruno's course and think I'll give it a go this summer (I get free lessons during the school year as part of the program I'm in).

What I'm most intrigued with is sending in videos and getting Jimmy to critique them. Have any of you taken advantage of that feature? How is it working for you?

I've been watching his sample lessons and the sample video's submitted by students. From what I've seen Bruno teaches and advocates "position" playing for improv. I saw him correct a student that was playing out of position telling him that he was missing the point of his method. That's a bit of a drawback for me but I can learn his way and supplement with the 'vertical approach' on my own.

By 'vertical approach' I'm referring to what Goodrick teaches in his "Advancing Guitartist" book. He has excercises that start you improvising on one string and a week or so later two strings and then three strings. He suggests that you do this before you learn position playing.

The 'verticle approach' helps you learn the fretboard vertically and this different look opens new doors, imo. An example of someone who does this a lot in their playing is Pat Metheny.

adamhaas · #17 01-07-2010, 03:46 PM

Sorry fep, Im not that far along yet but I have watched some of the submissions and Jimmy's response and it is obvious that he genuinely takes his time to study the tapes and give honest advice. And judging by some of the playing, it is paying off. Some of these students can really play!

As for the postion playing, I can definitely see how someone who has learned a different method might struggle adapting to what Jimmy is teaching. But again, if results are the barometer being measured, it is hard to argue with his method.

Modalguru · #18 01-12-2010, 07:46 AM

Hi,

I've been studying at Jimmy's institute for 3 month and have just logged of a couple of weeks ago. But not because I didn't like it, I just don't have time enough. I have got a very good local teacher a couple of month ago, who keeps me busy all the time and I go to jamsessions, learn songs, etc...

What I liked about Jimmy's institute:
- A very motivated teacher with the mission to educate guitarists all over the world
- A well thought method
- Lot's of printed material for download
- A good forum with motivated students

What I didn't like:
- Jimmy says "books are for idiots". Well I think, there are a couple of very good books out there.
- Jimmy says that analyses won't make a good jazz guitar player out of you. But there have been a lot of very good guitarists, who have learned a lot by analysing songs and the solos of others
- There could be more material concerning comping. You learn lots of chords and also chord-melody, but there isn't much material about comping in a band situation

What I would suggest:
If there is no good teacher in your area, join Jimmy's institute, but also get a good book on theory (one with a good cd demonstrating the topics). Connect the things you learn at the JBGI with the theory. Learn lots of songs and analyse and learn the favorite licks of your favorite players. Play as much as possible with others.

If you have a good teacher in your area, take lessons with him/her. Face to face lessons have many advantages: you can ask as many questions as you like, the teacher has a better look on your technique (especially right had), you will get lots of tipps from the teacher (listen to that, go to that concert, etc), a teacher gives you deadlines for learning new material, a teacher might know other people you can play with, etc.
But also do all the other things I mentioned above.

Another tip: I like the DVDs of Mimi Fox a lot. But it's a lot of work going through and imho it's not for beginners.

Cheers, Chris

Latif · #19 01-24-2010, 01:26 AM

I've been a member at JBGI for a couple years and managed to post only one video as I'm challenged in the producing video department. I've progressed more in this time than the 30 some years of playing previous.I had basically been noodling and guessing all that time, mostly self taught. Although Jimmy emphasizes moving into soloing rapidly, it's all there as i see it, the theory and the analysis, with the emphasis on making meaningful music first. There's a lot to be learned in the forum too, from many of his more advanced students. I'm sure I'll be there for a long time as I'm a very slow learner. And all for the cost of 10 cups of coffee a month!

Latif

rabbit · #20 01-24-2010, 04:49 AM

Modalguru's name betrays a preference directly at odds with
Jimmy Bruno's clearly stated philosophy that pretty much
just groups tones as 'inside' or 'outside' avoiding modal
thinking entirely.

M-guru is largely accurate in his assessment of the Bruno
Institute but misses the vital importance of Jimmy's method
in connecting the ears to the fingers. It's a big deal.
This is where the position playing comes in. Nothing
wrong with vertical play if you really know the fretboard.
Also, Jimmy analyzes about ten standards and if you need
help with something he's always there to send a video to.
He does not shirk contact or the work involved.

Jimmy's method is idiosyncratic but any real master
will expect you to do it his way. You might not like him
but I find him great fun to watch & hear. M-guru is correct
to the extent that you can't know if Bruno is right for you
on anyone's advice. The price of one three-month stretch
will provide enough to keep most beginning-to-intermediate
players busy for at least a year and be worth it, if you
really do the work.

Modalguru · #21 01-25-2010, 02:48 AM

Hi rabbit,

the only reason, why I logged of Jimmy's institute is, that I don't have the time going through all of the material and digging all of the topics in the forum. I've got a very good local teacher, who keeps me really busy and I like to learn some other stuff, too (e.g. solos from recordings).

I think connecting the ear with the fingers is necessary with any method you follow. You have to practice everything until you really hear it. You have to hear the difference in the chord-qualities, extensions and alterations, the chord-tones in scales, etc, etc. Most students (and I were really no exeption here) rush through the materials much too fast. You have to internalize all the stuff, which takes some time. You can only improvise freely, when you don't have to think when you play. When you send in videos, Jimmy ensures, that you don't move on too fast. That's really a great advantage over self-teaching.

So I believe, the method is of second importance. More important is, that you have a guideline to follow and stick to the topics till you really have mastered them. Changing practice routine every day only leads to confusion.

My nickname here has nothing to do with my approach to making music. That name was just a spontanious decision. I have found out, that it works best for me learning all the material with new songs. My teacher and I select one song at a time and then we go through it by analysing the function of the chords. I have to learn all songs by heart first by learning the chord progressions using the nashville number system (e.g. ii-V-I, ii-V-i of the third degree, ii-V-I of the fourth degree, vi, etc, etc), then we search for interesting chord voicings and discuss the scales that can be used for improvising over it. Then we play the song in different keys and he tells me the names of other songs, which have the same or similar progressions.

So my practice routine consists of practicing the chords, arps and scales of the song I'm currentyl working on, improvising over a playback of the song, doing some technical exercises using the scales of the song, doing a chord-melody of most of the songs and when there is time left, I dig a solo of Grant Green or learn a bit of the Mimi Fox material of the truefire courses.

It's also important to listen to different versions of the songs you learn. I do this everyday on the way to and from work. Sounds like I have found my way, but it will take some time to prove that, it's only three month that I've been doing it that way...

All the best,
Chris

gersdal · #22 01-25-2010, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modalguru

What I liked about Jimmy's institute:
- A very motivated teacher with the mission to educate guitarists all over the world
- A well thought method
- Lot's of printed material for download
- A good forum with motivated students

What I didn't like:
- Jimmy says "books are for idiots". Well I think, there are a couple of very good books out there.
- Jimmy says that analyses won't make a good jazz guitar player out of you. But there have been a lot of very good guitarists, who have learned a lot by analysing songs and the solos of others
- There could be more material concerning comping. You learn lots of chords and also chord-melody, but there isn't much material about comping in a band situation

Good points. The "what I didn't like" list is very close to my concern, but the first two can easily be mitigated by following the suggestions that you give. The third one is more of a concern.

Again, JB's dvd "No nonsense jazz" I guess will give some insight into him as a teacher and his methods. I've seen it and it's ok, but I would rather rely on knowing the theory that goes along with the music.

Reg · #23 01-25-2010, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gersdal

Good points. The "what I didn't like" list is very close to my concern, but the first two can easily be mitigated by following the suggestions that you give. The third one is more of a concern.

Again, JB's dvd "No nonsense jazz" I guess will give some insight into him as a teacher and his methods. I've seen it and it's ok, but I would rather rely on knowing the theory that goes along with the music.

Great discussion, and opinions all very cool and different...How one approaches music is very personal, I think you need to understand what type of person you are, how much time you have and most importantly, where do you want to end up. To some the process is as important as the end result, this is getting a little more philosophical than I intended. It seems we all have good intent, some would rather be taught how things are, some figure it out themselves and some need both methods. They all work if you answer those three simple questions;1) where do I want to end up with music,2)how much time do I have,( unfortunately $'s is usually involved here); and 3) what type of person am I ?... then put in the time needed...I'm from the school that you need to be aware of as much theory as you are able to process to play jazz, it's an on going thing. Reg

cajunjacket · #24 01-26-2010, 02:16 PM

I am a beginner guitar player. I began about 5 months ago. I hadn't played any other instrument besides piano, and I had learned that as a child, so all I remembered prior to guitar were the notes: C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B.

When I began learning guitar, all I would do is learn songs from guitar tabs as opposed to learning the fundamentals. This was great, but I felt like a fraud. I was merely a walking, talking CD player. I had enough, so I was determined to learn Jazz guitar.

At the recommendation of the great folks on this forum, I tried JBGI. WOW! That was the best $60 I have spent. Yes, in the beginning, some of the terminology was "over my head," but I simply asked questions in the forum and used Google to inform me of the terms with which I was unfamiliar. Jimmy's method makes so much sense to me. Because of this method, I feel like I am understanding the guitar more each day that I practice. It's no longer a "black box."

Yes, I don't know any tunes just yet because I am in the early stages, but that's unnecessary. I would rather know all my scales fluently than know some tunes. Tunes are what I want to move towards in a few months, but I don't want to get caught in the trap I was in before where I was simply parroting off someone else's arrangement of a song. I want to feel the music, make the music, and understand the music.

Without a doubt, JBGI is a great route to go if you have any doubts whatsoever. It's the best $60 I have spent in a while. Thanks to the guys on here for suggesting the place. I'm glad I listened.

rabbit · #25 01-31-2010, 01:11 AM

Modalguru,

I was down sick for a while and so was delayed in posting this.

I'm glad you didn't take my post the hard way,
later I thought it sounded harsh. Wouldn't be a first.

If you can find and afford a good local, flesh & blood
perfesser it's got to be a good path.

My rant about connecting the fingers & the ears was
intended as a reference for the uninitiated to Bruno's
insistence on using the 'shapes.' I'm with you generally
though on this subject and am trying to listen more closely
to everything (musical.)

A mix of approaches is a relief really, as long we don't
wander too far. I heard somewhere that Howard Alden,
who's largely self-taught, concentrated on song study.

Modalguru · #26 01-31-2010, 09:27 AM

rabitt,

no problem. In my first statement I was actually too abstract (and English is not my first language, too). I think, I opinion clear with my second post.

And I really enjoyed watching Jimmy, too. He is so inflammatory, motivated and proud (quite rightly) of what he has build with this online institute. I will never forget sitting him in front of the camera at 6am with a cigarette and a coffee complaining, that the students of the third level sent in such a small amount of videos. That's really motivating, when you see, that he really cares!

One last thing I would like to recommend, is the book of Victor Wooten. It's no bass instruction book. It's just a general book about thoughts of making music and improvising, but you can derive exercises from it, too. I've just read the first 100 pages and my playing has already changed...

cmkaco · #27 02-02-2010, 07:42 PM

Thanks everybody for your thoughtful input. It is an interesting discussion. I did eventually join the Jimmy Bruno Guitar Institute. I figured, for $60 for three months, you can't go wrong. It is not perfect, but I think the material is very good (as Modalgura stated, it is not as good as having a live teacher). I have tried live teachers though, and they too have their problems and idosyncracies. I am satisfied with what I am learning from Mr. Bruno, and I can do it at my own pace. I have to correct an impression that I first had, in that, it really is not , a no theory approach. I think it is pretty heavy on theory, actually, but not on scales. You still have to know (or at least learn) about chord formation and a lot of other concepts, but I am familiar with most of that stuff (just haven't really internalized it yet). Teachers tend to want to teach you their way (as does Mr. Bruno), but I really do think his approach is to get you to be able to do it on your own as quickly as possible, not to keep coming back to him for lessons forever, like some teachers I have had. The main problem I am having is that he really stresses improv a lot, and that is not my goal (although being able to play a nice solo now and again would be nice). I really want to be able to play chord melody of a lot of the old standards, but I think I can get there with his method too.

cajunjacket · #28 02-03-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmkaco

I think it is pretty heavy on theory, actually, but not on scales.

I think you signed up for the wrong site. If JB is heavy on ANYTHING it's scales. The most important first step for him is to learn the major scale 5 times up the next for all 12 keys.

cmkaco · #29 02-03-2010, 03:14 PM

I understand what you are saying, completely. Bruno, however, is adamant that these are not scales. He says a scale would start on a note, go up to the octave and come back. Since these five "positions" as he calls them do not do that, he says they are not scales. In addition, they would only be major if you started on the C and went to the octave C. If you start on another tone, you get Lydian, Dorian, etc, which I don't think are major (well they may be "major" scales, but they are not what I think of as C major or Rast, as we say in Greek music (and there is even some debate as to whether Rast is the same as Major)).. I guess his point is that you have a lot of different scales or modes within these shapes, depending on where you start and what you emphasize. Perhaps it would have been more correct for me to say that Jimmy Bruno does not emphasize modes and thinking of modes when you are trying to improvise over a tune or chord progression.

FatJeff · #30 02-03-2010, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmkaco

I understand what you are saying, completely. Bruno, however, is adamant that these are not scales. He says a scale would start on a note, go up to the octave and come back. Since these five "positions" as he calls them do not do that, he says they are not scales. In addition, they would only be major if you started on the C and went to the octave C. If you start on another tone, you get Lydian, Dorian, etc, which I don't think are major (well they may be "major" scales, but they are not what I think of as C major or Rast, as we say in Greek music (and there is even some debate as to whether Rast is the same as Major)).. I guess his point is that you have a lot of different scales or modes within these shapes, depending on where you start and what you emphasize. Perhaps it would have been more correct for me to say that Jimmy Bruno does not emphasize modes and thinking of modes when you are trying to improvise over a tune or chord progression.

He calls them "pitch collections," which is exactly what they are - collections of notes/pitches. The 5 shapes are just a way to get a given pitch collection under your fingers in different areas of the neck (i.e. in a given position). You can play the same shape in different positions (i.e. based off a different fret), or you can play different shapes in the same position (same fret).

Mr. Bruno's approach is based off of major scale harmony (at least for improv level 1).