Bruno/Orberg/Conti v. Berkleemusic

[rabbit]

Originally Posted by cajunjacket

I think you signed up for the wrong site. If JB is heavy on ANYTHING it's scales. The most important first step for him is to learn the major scale 5 times up the next for all 12 keys.

You make this sound difficult, which it is not, really.
Also, embedded in this are all the modes, which Bruno
definitely does not emphasize.
IMHO Bruno's is the simplest, easiest most rational approach for a beginner.

cmkaco,

Good luck!

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by rabbit

IMHO Bruno's is the simplest, easiest most rational approach for a beginner.

Agreed 100% here.

[Modalguru]

Originally Posted by cmkaco

I understand what you are saying, completely. Bruno, however, is adamant that these are not scales. He says a scale would start on a note, go up to the octave and come back. Since these five "positions" as he calls them do not do that, he says they are not scales. In addition, they would only be major if you started on the C and went to the octave C. If you start on another tone, you get Lydian, Dorian, etc, which I don't think are major (well they may be "major" scales, but they are not what I think of as C major or Rast, as we say in Greek music (and there is even some debate as to whether Rast is the same as Major)).. I guess his point is that you have a lot of different scales or modes within these shapes, depending on where you start and what you emphasize. Perhaps it would have been more correct for me to say that Jimmy Bruno does not emphasize modes and thinking of modes when you are trying to improvise over a tune or chord progression.

Hi,

well, starting on another note of the major sclae and then call it dorian, mixolydian, etc does not make any sence. It will still sound like the major scale. You have to relate it to the chord behind the scale and to the arpeggios and you will find out, that each of the modes has it's own mood. When soloing using one of the modes you have to support the feel of that mood, so you really have to hear this sound, you have to internalize the sound and mood of the mode.

The same mood can be generated using the concepts of Jimmy, which might be easier for many guitarists (and you will internalize the sounds, too, if you follow his method). For others it's easier when they can name it and relate the mood and sound to that name. I would assign myself to the second type. But that's only for practicing. When you solo in a band situation, you have to forget about all of that and just let it happen.

There's one disadvantage with all the "no-scales-concepts" which lies in the communication with other musicians. When you know the language of the theory of harmoy, it's much easier to tell others what you mean. Otherwise you always have to play on the instrument for explanation...

Cheers,
Chris

[Marcel]

I joined Bruno's class about a month ago. I like his approach. He calls them pitch collection but they are modes in my opinion. When I first learned my modes it was the same as the 5 shapes for the most part. I like that he focuses on improve, this is the main thing that I have struggled with and the teachers I have had didn't do a very good job of helping me with this. His approach to outside notes is different. Most people will tell you to "use this scale or that scale over this chord." He tells you to use your ear. What a concept.

[guitarplayer007]

Yes i have been there for 2 years and you will love it!
Ken

[Reg]

Originally Posted by Marcel

I joined Bruno's class about a month ago. I like his approach. He calls them pitch collection but they are modes in my opinion. When I first learned my modes it was the same as the 5 shapes for the most part. I like that he focuses on improve, this is the main thing that I have struggled with and the teachers I have had didn't do a very good job of helping me with this. His approach to outside notes is different. Most people will tell you to "use this scale or that scale over this chord." He tells you to use your ear. What a concept.

Sounds great and appears your in a direction that makes you want to play... very cool. Be careful of your ears... they don't always hear what you think they are hearing, which is not bad or wrong, but your ears don't come fully loaded. Another member of this forum uses a quote...it's great...something about when you think you have it together... you usually don't.
Most teachers are trying to help you become what ever you convey to them. In jazz...it really does take way to much time, even for the gifted. Most method of teaching work to some degree etc... And most teachers want you to reach your goals or whatever reason your playing ... it's not just for the $. But keep your ears open and take lessons,( or whatever your source), from lots of teachers... Reg

[bob32069]

I don't think anyone who has replied has said much about the Oberg site. I have done both the Bruno and Oberg sites in the past. The thing that is most attractive about Bruno is that while I know theory inside out, I can't think fast enough to apply the theory I know in a music playing situation. The beauty of Bruno's method is that you can play without really knowing, or (even if you know it) thinking about, the theory while you play. You DO have to do some thinking though. You have to be able to quickly analyze a tune to know what pitch collections you're going to need to play in different parts of the song. To me, that is still the most challenging part of being in a performance situation and having someone call a tune that you don't already know well. I agree with most of the other respondents that Bruno is the best for a beginner, but you should still try to get some theory somewhere.

As far as Oberg goes, he strikes me as someone who was probably a child prodigy and is a musical genius who thinks in a plane above mere mortals. That is why I didn't find his website very helpful. He does not promote any specific method the way Bruno does. He for the most part lays out standardized jazz theory from simple to complex in each ascending video. If you want to approach learning jazz from the theory side of things, I think his site would be very good for that. You would learn the theory in a very methodical fashion, but I doubt that you would be able to apply what you learn in a real world playing situation very quickly. He also advocates not playing in position but going up and down the neck. You will need to memorize scales and modes going up and down the neck in every key without really, it seems to me, any methodical way of doing it. He can do it because, like I said, he is probably a genius. I definitely can't (and I'm not dumb - I'm a surgeon in my day job), and that is pretty much the whole reason why Bruno's site exists and is so popular.

The one other thing that Oberg has that Bruno doesn't is a whole section on Gypsy Jazz and that is the main reason I joined Oberg - I am a big Gypsy Jazz fan. One of the reasons I quit Bruno's site was at one point he put up a video rant about how all Gypsy Jazz players were just Django copycats without any originality and that really turned me off. I thought it was inappropriate. However, I have forgiven and will probably rejoin Bruno now that I've been away for about a year.

Good luck with whatever choice you make.

[wizard3739]

Someone mentioned Howard Alden as being largely self-taught and I would like to set the record straight. Howard Alden is not "largely self taught". He graduated from GIT in 1978, studied Privately with Howard Roberts prior to GIT and also took private lessons from Jimmy Wyble after graduation from GIT. There may have been other teachers after he left L.A. and moved to New york City. Howard is a truly dedicated guitarist and has alway been able to "dig in" and learn whatever he is interested in. He has alwayed been gifted with a natural abilty to learn and understand musical techniques and concepts as applied to the guitar. IMHO, he is truly a master jazz guitarist.

wiz

[rabbit]

wiz,

I got this impression from Bruno's interview of Alden
on his 'Institute' site. Bruno outright asks him if he's
pretty much self-taught and Alden, always very modest,
squirms a bit & hedges. Alden speaks of how he concentrated
on learning songs and a musical vocabulary.

From the interview & a buddy who went to GIT it seems
Alden helped Roberts with teaching & curriculum, he may have
graduated too, I dunno. Alden reveals his study with Wyble
and adds his debt to Red Norvo & Ruby Braff, who he worked with.

Basically I agree with you & truly dig Alden but would add that
if you can work with these folks and make 4 records with Epps
coming from this kind of instruction you're bringing a whole
lot more to it than your instruction, which you sort of alluded
to. Mere mortals likely need more instruction per unit of net notes.

[wizard3739]

Hiya rabbit

Howard & I both studied with Howard Roberts (18 of us in a group lesson) prior to attending GIT. Howard was age 16 at that time. We both attended GIT and graduated together in 1978. Our graduating class at GIT voted Howard to be "Most Likely To Succeed" and we were absolutely right. After graduating from GIT, we both studied with Jimmy Wyable (private lessons). I started a jazz guitar teaching studio (Howard's Guitar Studio) in Huntington Beach, Ca and Howard taught banjo in my studio for a while. After Howard returned from working with Red Norvo, he did accept a teaching gig at GIT for a while. I never saw the interview with Jimmy Bruno but I do know Howard was always very modest and humble concerning his innate ability to learn and play the guitar. I lost contact with (except for a few emails) after he moved to New York. The last time I communicated with him was shortly after he completed the cd's he did with George Van Eps. He truly earned his musicianship credentials (IMHO, Master Guitarist) working with many, many of the great jazz musicians and never seems to slow down his scheduled performances all over the world. As you might guess, My wife and I are very proud of him and his accomplishments.

wiz

[rabbit]

wiz,

Thanks for the clarification & congratulations
on a life in music (and knowing H.A!)

[dorfmeister]

I've been working with the Chord Melody Assembly line and am basically having a tough time getting past the first set of chords in c. Some chord fingerings that are completely new to me as a self-taught punk rock guitarist trying to expand his guitar horizons. I am finding cleanly fingering and changing these chords makes me feel a bit like I felt when I first started guitar.....and being real good at playing major and minor barre chords doesn't seem to be much preparation for playing some of the complex fingerings he's presenting.

Are any of the other dvd's a better place to enter into the world of Conti? I really want to get a feel for the Chord Melody stuff...I can just see that it is going to be a significant process.

Is there a better entry

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by dorfmeister

I've been working with the Chord Melody Assembly line and am basically having a tough time getting past the first set of chords in c. Some chord fingerings that are completely new to me as a self-taught punk rock guitarist trying to expand his guitar horizons. I am finding cleanly fingering and changing these chords makes me feel a bit like I felt when I first started guitar.....and being real good at playing major and minor barre chords doesn't seem to be much preparation for playing some of the complex fingerings he's presenting.

Are any of the other dvd's a better place to enter into the world of Conti? I really want to get a feel for the Chord Melody stuff...I can just see that it is going to be a significant process.

Is there a better entry

A lot of those chords are pretty basic jazz chords. If you're newer to playing jazz chords, start with something like this: Free Guitar Lessons - JA-001 ? Basic Jazz Chords
Learn to comp through some easy tunes out of a Real Book (like "All of Me") using these chord forms.

The Chord Melody Assembly Line is Conti's "How to" book on creating your own chord melodies. If you aren't yet familiar with these types of jazz chords, a better starting point would probably be to get one of his collections of chord melody arrangements. You'd learn all of the chord forms used in the Assembly Line, but in the context of playing a real song. Then, when you're ready to make your own arrangements, go back to The Assembly Line. By that time, you'll already know how to play most of those chords.

I struggled with creating my own chord melody arrangements for a few years before getting Conti's book. It significantly improved my CM arrangements.

[docbop]

Originally Posted by wizard3739

Hiya rabbit

Howard & I both studied with Howard Roberts (18 of us in a group lesson) prior to attending GIT. Howard was age 16 at that time. We both attended GIT and graduated together in 1978. Our graduating class at GIT voted Howard to be "Most Likely To Succeed" and we were absolutely right. After graduating from GIT, we both studied with Jimmy Wyable (private lessons). I started a jazz guitar teaching studio (Howard's Guitar Studio) in Huntington Beach, Ca and Howard taught banjo in my studio for a while. After Howard returned from working with Red Norvo, he did accept a teaching gig at GIT for a while. I never saw the interview with Jimmy Bruno but I do know Howard was always very modest and humble concerning his innate ability to learn and play the guitar. I lost contact with (except for a few emails) after he moved to New York. The last time I communicated with him was shortly after he completed the cd's he did with George Van Eps. He truly earned his musicianship credentials (IMHO, Master Guitarist) working with many, many of the great jazz musicians and never seems to slow down his scheduled performances all over the world. As you might guess, My wife and I are very proud of him and his accomplishments.

wiz

I went to GIT in 1980 and Howard was one of our groups teachers. He was a great teacher and would bring his banjo and sometimes a mandolin in. We'd alway talk him in to play Jazz on them when he did. Funny he was still doing Dixieland band gigs and would show up in his costume. I remember there were strange myths floating around about Howard's background, because he always seems to be by himself. One thing you never saw him without an instrument in his hands he was always playing.

I've seen the Bruno interview with Howard. Howard is friends with Jimmy and knows Jimmy anti-theory rantings and IMO Howard was just being nice and avoiding the topic.

GIT was a great place back then when it was still using Howard Roberts teaching methods.

[dorfmeister]

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

A lot of those chords are pretty basic jazz chords. If you're newer to playing jazz chords, start with something like this: Free Guitar Lessons - JA-001 ? Basic Jazz Chords
Learn to comp through some easy tunes out of a Real Book (like "All of Me") using these chord forms.

The Chord Melody Assembly Line is Conti's "How to" book on creating your own chord melodies. If you aren't yet familiar with these types of jazz chords, a better starting point would probably be to get one of his collections of chord melody arrangements. You'd learn all of the chord forms used in the Assembly Line, but in the context of playing a real song. Then, when you're ready to make your own arrangements, go back to The Assembly Line. By that time, you'll already know how to play most of those chords.

I struggled with creating my own chord melody arrangements for a few years before getting Conti's book. It significantly improved my CM arrangements.

Thanks for the response. Any recommendations on which of his collections of Chord Melody Arrangements? That sounds like a great way to get the chords solid and have fun learning them.

[dorfmeister]

I am not quite sure what the difference is between the Play Pro Chord Melody Today DVDs and the Ticket to Improv DVDs.

I am more interested in this point at working on jazz chords and rhythm guitar/comping rather than on improvisation.....though the Ticket to Improv maybe seems like it is a more entry level product. Any thoughts?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by dorfmeister

I am not quite sure what the difference is between the Play Pro Chord Melody Today DVDs and the Ticket to Improv DVDs.

I am more interested in this point at working on jazz chords and rhythm guitar/comping rather than on improvisation.....though the Ticket to Improv maybe seems like it is a more entry level product. Any thoughts?

Ticket to Improv is single-note soloing, not chord melody.

[dorfmeister]

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Ticket to Improv is single-note soloing, not chord melody.

Thanks.

That is what I thought but I wasn't completely sure.

[Four2theBar]

Hi all,

Just thought I'd weigh in here.

Here's a little background:

I've been playing on and off for about 37 years now. Like most adult guitar players with a serious day gig, dysfunctional heartbreaks , family commitments, etc., there have been plenty of years in there where the guitar took a back seat to just about everything else.

However, I did manage to get about 5 good years of serious formal Classical guitar training along with about 3 years of "similar" training in Jazz guitar. My general standard notation reading skills are OK but I'm not a great sight reader. I also have a foundational understanding of harmony in Classical and Jazz music although I'm not real advanced in either.

I've played in a number of band and ensemble settings including weekly church things (years ago) and more recently Big Band. I've also done some solo things and about 30 "semi-pro level" gigs in various contexts over the years.


Now for the relevant stuff ....

I own a pile of Robert Conti books/DVDs and also the entire set of Berklee method books by Leavitt as well as many "hot licks" DVDs, Larry Carlton and Robben Ford titles, etc.

Due to a "late mid-life Guitars jones", I've been for the past 3-4 years shedding at home from 10-20 hours per week (on top of a few gigs and Big Band work). For the first couple of these years I worked quite a bit with the Conti materials. However, in the past year I've put quite a lot of time into Berklee Vol.1 -reading and working out the exercises and etudes with both plectrum and finger-style RH technique.

Honestly, I think the Conti materials are good and can provide a "short-cut" to playing some nice lines, chord-melody arrangements, etc. Conti does not get into much theory and ZERO modes/scales. He does provide a good "road map" for learning the basics of more traditional Jazz guitar work. I'm not real sure how well his approach works with the more modern, modal kinds of Jazz though. I suspect it would fall short of equipping a guitarist to handle the styles of Metheny, Stern, Muthspiel, Stowell, Goodrick, etc.

The Berklee method, on the other hand, exposes the player systematically to an entire approach for understanding the guitar, technically, melodically, rhythmically, and harmonically. Along the way, much musical notation and interpretive concepts/commentary are introduced but most importantly (to me anyway), Vols. 1-3 contain a number of chordal etudes, duets, and solo pieces that provide excellent musical "miniatures" that beg to be expressed as real music, that is with the polyphony and parts played in musical proportion, etc. (e.g. like a classical or very advanced finger-style chord melody Jazz player does)! If properly understood (here's where several years of expert/correct Classical guitar instruction is helpful) musically the Leavitt etudes can provide the basis for very deep musical growth that will can positively impact everything the student plays in most any truly musical setting.

I'm not familiar with Jimmy Bruno's method but I LOVE his playing! I would say glean as much as possible from Conti but for a deep musical education as applied to the guitar, my money is on the Leavitt Berklee volumes!

[davekain]

I can't see learning jazz soloing, comping or chord melody without a decent theory background. It's just part of it. I am not familiar with the Bruno or Oberg site at all but I will say this. I can understand the attraction in getting to play music quicker but in the end, it's just a shortcut. If you go about anything in life the short way, you're going pay for it later and you're going to miss some things and have to go back. If you're just learning shortcuts to get "through" a tune, you're going to have to do it for EVERY tune you do making learning a tune a longer process. If you learn a tune inside and out. All the theory, ways to comp and solo through it, that's going to prepare you better for the next one you have to do. And the next one after that and so on til it gets to a point to where you just get it and can do it on your own without having to ask Bruno what to do everytime.

I guess what I'm saying is learn the theory. You will be glad you did in the long run. If you can't get a good teacher in you area, I would think skype would be a GREAT tool to learning jazz theory since you really don't have to play together. It's all analysis and can be done vocally. Hell, I could do it for ya. Easily. Also, a local teacher for "jazz theory" doesn't have to be a guitar teacher if that helps and you really want to learn it. Theory is a musical thing. Not a guitar thing.

I played at Chris' Jazz Cafe in Philly and Jimmy Bruno stopped by during my set. I spoke to him and he really dug a ballad of mine I had performed during the set. VERY fond musical memory for me!!! Nice guy. I had to follow his set at Chris' one another occasion. That'll put some hair on your chest!

[joeasi]

I just went to check out Jimmy Bruno's site and it was closed. They had an e-mail address to send questions to. I sent an e-mail and got an immediate auto-respond with the following:

"Thank you for your inquiry.
As of January 5, 2011 this site is no longer open and will not reopen.
New students and renewals are no longer accepted and this email is no longer monitored."

[FatJeff]

That's the old site. His new site is http://jbguitarworkshop.com/

[joeasi]

Thanks Jeff.

[Four2theBar]

Thanks so much for your reply! I do study locally with Scott Sawyer, one of the best Jazz Guitarists in our region. He also is on the Adjunct Faculty at East Carolina U. Scott has been a pro for over 30 years and is also is a student of Mick Goodrick. His knowledge of Jazz harmony is very deep.

Speaking only for myself, i've learned to be modest about what I know about theory, etc. Again, speaking for myself, unless one can express this musically on their instrument, playing real tunes, etc. then just having read about, "knowing it cognitively", being able to discuss it, etc. is not really that valuable.

It's important to know how to play scales/modes in many positions, fingerings, articulations, etc. because this provides the framework for which music can be expressed. Doing this work in the context of developing technique and ear training is also very good, and in my experience the best way to learn (as opposed to just "running scales" by rote. The same true with Triads, both close and open voiced, use of chromatic lower neighbors, etc. and arpeggios for all chord forms.

However, doing this work is normally a LONG TERM project that should be applied in the context of learning tunes and also playing with other like-minded musicians.

[jazzuki]

cmkaco.As you specify that you are a beginner I recommend Bob Conti'Why? -because he will have you playing really good basic "lines and simple chord/melody "in no time at all.You can then decide where you want to progress with Jazz Guitar.All the best.

[Nuff Said]

Originally Posted by wizard3739

Someone mentioned Howard Alden as being largely self-taught and I would like to set the record straight. Howard Alden is not "largely self taught". He graduated from GIT in 1978, studied Privately with Howard Roberts prior to GIT and also took private lessons from Jimmy Wyble after graduation from GIT. There may have been other teachers after he left L.A. and moved to New york City. Howard is a truly dedicated guitarist and has alway been able to "dig in" and learn whatever he is interested in. He has alwayed been gifted with a natural abilty to learn and understand musical techniques and concepts as applied to the guitar. IMHO, he is truly a master jazz guitarist.

wiz

I agree, Howard Alden is a true master of the guitar in the style he plays, and probably any other style if he learn others.

I've been to a few Howard Alden master classes and he has one of the best playing techniques I've ever heard and seen. He seems such a nice person too.

Nuff

[matt.guitarteacher]

The Conti materials are about learning another player's lines and phrasing. That's important whether you do it by transcribing or learning a solo from Conti or another teacher. But you don't learn theory solely by playing other people's solos.

Learning theory is very important too, but you don't learn phrasing and what a jazz solo is supposed to sound like from a theory book or simply learning scales.

You need both.

Learn some theory AND play other people's solos. Use the theory to decide WHY it works in their solo. Use the solos to learn ways to phrase those scales and arpeggios.

It's not an "either or" proposition.

Conti's not about learning major theory. Leavitt's not too heavy on phrasing. Apples and oranges.

[Four2theBar]

It occurred to me today that Conti does have an good volume that touches on a lot of very practical harmonic ideas without getting unncessarily bogged down in "theory".

It's called: The Formula!. I'm sure others have commented on this volume.



I have it and find it to be an excellent reference for learning new ideas for comping and created harmony.