The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I understand I can stick a diminished 7 in bar 6 of a blues and in between chords eg going from Em to Dm I can insert Ebdim7.

    What I do not understand is if a chart says say Edim can I play dim7 or half dim or do I stick to a dim Triad chord?

    Cheers




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    Last edited by gggomez; 01-14-2018 at 04:55 PM.

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  3. #2

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    You can usually play a dim7 chord in place of a diminished triad chord. A half diminished chord is a different thing, better notated as "-7b5" to avoid confusion

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    I understand I can stick a diminished 7 in bar 6 of a blues and in between chords eg going from Em to Dm I can insert Ebdim7.

    What I do not understand is if a chart says say Edim can I play dim7 or half dim or do I stick to a dim Tritone chord?

    Cheers




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    Sometimes charts also write dim when they mean dim7, to add to the confusion.

    As alter says, half diminished is a different thing. I believe the Berklee common practice is to write m7b5 or -7b5 (something I try to do now), but you do still often see ø in charts - Aebersold, for instance.

  5. #4

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    The function of that Ebdim depends on what comes before and after. If you’re sight reading and aren’t sure if dim7 will work in the progression, it’s safest to stick with the dim triad.

  6. #5

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    What kind of wierdo writes a dim triad in a chart?

  7. #6

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    Yet, theoretically, when we harmonize that jazzy extra 3rd to the locrian diminished triad, it becomes the locrian half diminished/min7b5 chord. So, there is no actual natural occurring dim7 construct, it is a synthetic jazz chord built from a symetrical scale.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Yet, theoretically, when we harmonize that jazzy extra 3rd to the locrian diminished triad, it becomes the locrian half diminished/min7b5 chord. So, there is no actual natural occurring dim7 construct, it is a synthetic jazz chord built from a symetrical scale.
    With all due respect Cosmic, and without meaning to be rude or dismissive* - but that is the biggest load of bollocks I've heard for sometime on this forum.

    Dim7 chord has been in use for centuries.... I mean you must know this? Musical examples are here. One that springs instantly to mind is the Bach Prelude in D minor, a popular guitar piece.

    Diminished seventh chord - Wikipedia

    I'm pretty sure if you'd talked about 'symmetrical scales and locrian diminished triads' in the 17th century, they would have burnt you at the stake as a warlock and corrupter of the young.

    So, where did the Dim7 originally come from? Originally as a product of what we call the harmonic minor.

    C D E F G Ab B C
    B D F Ab = B dim 7

    It came to be used in major keys due to major/minor modal interchange. And other things. The wiki article covers it pretty well.

    The symmetrical diminished scale has some history going back to the early 20th century - I believe it was used by Rimsky Korsakov - and to my ears, was rare in jazz, perhaps until the mid/late 50's - Bill Evans who seemed to like this sound, being a secret Russian. Coltrane also liked it. A lot.

    Politically, this scale is quite communist.

    (* While actually being both of those things.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-15-2018 at 07:25 AM.

  9. #8

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    Cut'n'paste from wikipedia:

    Arnold Schoenberg wrote of the dim7 : "Whenever one wanted to express pain, excitement, anger, or some other strong feeling – there we find, almost exclusively, the diminished seventh chord. So it is in the music of Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Weber, etc. Even in Wagner’s early works it plays the same role. But soon the role was played out. This uncommon, restless, undependable guest, here today, gone tomorrow, settled down, became a citizen, was retired a philistine. The chord had lost that appeal of novelty, hence, it had lost its sharpness, but also its luster. It had nothing more in say to a new era. Thus, it fell from the higher sphere of art music to the lower of music for entertainment. There it remains, as a sentimental expression of sentimental concerns. It became banal and effeminate."

    So it was already passe by the early 20th century.

    Modern jazz musicians share Schoenberg's opinion (in so many words) and by the 1970s Real Book most dim7's were swapped out for ii-V's where possible. You can also add a maj7 to a o7 to get a more whole-half diminished scale sound.

    When I want an old school sound, I use the straight dim7. You hear it a lot in swing, and melodically in bebop.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    With all due respect Cosmic, and without meaning to be rude or dismissive* - but that is the biggest load of bollocks I've heard for sometime on this forum.

    Dim7 chord has been in use for centuries.... I mean you must know this? Musical examples are here. One that springs instantly to mind is the Bach Prelude in D minor, a popular guitar piece.
    I knew this would push your European classical music knowledge/history buttons, and you didn't disappoint. I don't like posting a big load of musical BS unless it'll get someone like you to write one these explanations you specialize in, that I'm too lazy to research and write. Thank you. Most of us Amuricans don't have classical music in our blood and it shows, that's why jazz doesn't sound too European.

  11. #10

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    But Europeans seem to like it a lot more than Merkins.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I knew this would push your European classical music knowledge/history buttons, and you didn't disappoint. I don't like posting a big load of musical BS unless it'll get someone like you to write one these explanations you specialize in, that I'm too lazy to research and write. Thank you. Most of us Amuricans don't have classical music in our blood and it shows, that's why jazz doesn't sound too European.
    Haha ;-) Too true.... Anyway, that was quite succinct, for me.

    Well, don't take it from me, OP - what the fuck do I know about anything? - check out what Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Miles Davis etc do on a dim7.

    The dim7 isn't really a 'jazz chord' in the modern sense... It tends to be swapped out for non-functioning II-V's in modern versions of the changes. Best example is Stella By Starlight which starts on Eo7. Reg IIRC refuses to pay them haha.

  13. #12

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    Thanks guys.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    The dim7 isn't really a 'jazz chord' in the modern sense... It tends to be swapped out for non-functioning II-V's in modern versions of the changes. Best example is Stella By Starlight which starts on Eo7. Reg IIRC refuses to pay them haha.
    This is true enough from a functional harmony perspective, but from a Barry Harris viewpoint the diminished is the font and origin of harmonic movement. I suppose it depends on what you mean by “modern.” I proudly wear a Tee-shirt with a portrait of Barry over the rubric, “Bebop — music of the future!”

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    This is true enough from a functional harmony perspective, but from a Barry Harris viewpoint the diminished is the font and origin of harmonic movement. I suppose it depends on what you mean by “modern.” I proudly wear a Tee-shirt with a portrait of Barry over the rubric, “Bebop — music of the future!”
    Yeah I dig that, but one of the nicest things about the Barry Harmony system for me is the way it allows you to 'smear' the dim7 chords in interesting ways. I'm a bit tired of the unadulterated sound of dim7's moving in parallel, which I think the 6-dim scales allow you to get away from.

    It also reflects the way melodies are written over dim chords... Looking at Stella, for instance, the melody is a borrowed note over the dim7 chord - A on Dbo7 or Eo7.... These melody notes are common over dim chords in the repertoire, actually... You can create sounds like this very beautifully by using the 8-note scales....

    But it's very old school.... It's a certain sound and atmosphere, sometimes just what you want... Like old pre-impressionist oil painting compared to post-impressionist work in the use of colour.

    II-V's are a bit - clunky? But they are useful. As much as Barry would hate me saying this, the Improvisation stuff he teaches is a very advanced version of II-V style running. There isn't much practical difference between breaking things down into II-V's and simplifying to dominant. It's just different terminology..

    Still, I find thinking about one chord easier than thinking about two so the BH system for changes wins for me.

    But you know - I live that style of harmony, but I also love all those chords that Barry hates - you know the Cm with the D under the Eb? Hahaha... And I like the non-functional II-V's in Wes tunes..... It's all resources....

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    What kind of wierdo writes a dim triad in a chart?
    Slowly raises hand, looks around concerned for well being, and backs away quietly towards the door....

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    I understand I can stick a diminished 7 in bar 6 of a blues and in between chords eg going from Em to Dm I can insert Ebdim7.

    What I do not understand is if a chart says say Edim can I play dim7 or half dim or do I stick to a dim Triad chord?
    It all depends on what's going on in the functional harmony of the tune and what effect you're trying to achieve. It might help to understand what's happening in bar 6 of a blues. When you play a dim7 a half step above a IV7, that dim7 is functioning as a IV7b9chord (without a root). It's also providing chromatic passing tones to the following chord (I7). It can also be seen as a tritone sub of the I7 anticipating the change back to the I7.

    A cool/paradoxical thing about dim7 chords is that even when they can be described functionally as a sub of another chord, they retain the character of being dim7 chords. So they stand out, and offer the opportunity for movement via shifting the whole chord in minor 3rds (cliche be damned).

    So, the more generic answer to your question is that any time a dim7 can function smoothly as a sub for another chord (typically an altered dom7), or provide passing tones between two chords, it'll likely work. The main caveat to consider is whether it'll clash with something else or introduce a cliched effect where it doesn't fit well. As others have said, there's also the possibility that what is written as a dim triad should be seen as a min7b5, in which case a dim7 would probably not sound good.

    It's not easy to keep these thoughts in mind while playing. I think best approach is to just experiment with subbing dim7's in lots of places in lots of tunes as you practice. Do this enough and what works vs what doesn't starts to come to you naturally.

    John

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Slowly raises hand, looks around concerned for well being, and backs away quietly towards the door....
    Lol

    Dude, if I was reading one of your charts I would expect that kind of thing haha. You and your triads.

    But seriously.... In fact if it was an original composition or arrangement I would play the chords as verbatim.

    I was thinking more from the perspective of standards.... (The OP taking about a blues.)

    The dim triad is a cool sound in its own right.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Lol

    Dude, if I was reading one of your charts I would expect that kind of thing haha. You and your triads.
    Awwwwww.... thanks Christian. I feel like we just kind of had a moment
    haha

  20. #19

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    So I'm no theory expert, but the way I approach Diminished Chords/Scales are as, either connecting 2 chords that are diatonically next to one another
    1.) Dmin 7 / Emin 7 becomes Dm7,Ebdim7/ Emin7

    Or to substitute for a Dom7b9 one half step above
    2.) D7 substitue Eb7b9

    I think the easiest way to see this is play say G7 on your top 4 strings. Now with your pinky add Ab on the top E string= G7b9

    Hope this is understandable and helpful!

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Awwwwww.... thanks Christian. I feel like we just kind of had a moment
    haha
    Haha

    Btw I’m really digging the lessons of yours I have had time to get into. There’s a lot you can do with triads... and there’s even more you can do with a triad + one note.

    (For those that haven’t - check out Jordan’s lessons online.)

    And the dim triad which I got into through your lesson has it’s own personality.... and the augmented. Playing around with them a lot after watching your videos.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Haha

    Btw I’m really digging the lessons of yours I have had time to get into. There’s a lot you can do with triads... and there’s even more you can do with a triad + one note.

    (For those that haven’t - check out Jordan’s lessons online.)

    And the dim triad which I got into through your lesson has it’s own personality.... and the augmented. Playing around with them a lot after watching your videos.
    Hey, many thanks Christian. Are you talking about the free masterclasses lessons? Or the new Melodic Triads Study Group stuff?

    Whichever you're referring to, yeah, I obviously get into the triad thing pretty heavily. Just works really well for the sounds I'm always trying to find.

    It's always just about tension and resolution points really, for me at least. Very similar to the 6 vs dim idea. Except instead of a 4 note resolution system, I just approach it as a 3 note resolution system and then allow for the tension notes to revolve around that.

    So over a fully diminished 7 chord, one option might be to avoid the 7th and focus on the root triad to prevent us from getting caught up in that swirl of min3 and diminished movement that's so obvious to spot. If we just start with let's say a basic C diminished triad over the Cdim7 and we add the 4
    C-Eb-F-Gb
    we end up essentially with a blues pattern. We can't go all the way up to the nat 5 (ok, we can do anything we want to... but within the confines of this specific tonality, it's not there) but all the 1-b3-4-b5 bluesy pull off stuff is there. Like what if we play a C note, drop down a tritone to the Gb and immediately slide or pull off to the F note and then end off with a little Eb down to C movement. Straight up soul and blues... over a C diminished 7 chord. Or we could add the 2 and do a quick b3 -> 2 slide or pull off and then resolve down to the root. Again, another bluesy soulful approach to playing over a diminished.

    I'm really not talking about anything that can't be found within the whole-half diminished scale already. Just that we tend to jump straight for the fully diminished sound and execution and develop our diminished vocabulary around that... for me this just helps offer a way to get inside and explore different sounds and find other colors I might want to use. Not to mention that we can get away from the basic root structure diminished triad and use other triad types in the upper structure to completely change up the texture. One of my favorite sounds is using major triads to play over fully diminished 7 chords. Just make the diminished quality sound so simple and almost "obvious".

    But all that said... yeah if I'm hearing a simple diminished triad as the entirety of the harmonic sound I want in my head, that's likely what I would write out... but I would never force it to be something just for the sake of intellectual gratification. Whichever way it goes on the paper to be arranged for the horn section, or voicings for the piano or the guitar, or chord notation for comping and soloing... I'm just going to do my best to convey to the musicians as simply as possible what they need to know to help bring to life whatever sounds I'm hearing in my head and attempting to create with a group.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Slowly raises hand, looks around concerned for well being, and backs away quietly towards the door....
    Yes it is partly your fault I am lead to such a question. Working on your triads and the diminished triad and I was thinking I don't understand this dim, dim 7, half dim thing.

    I will work through all of the above thanks again everyone.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    Yes it is partly your fault I am lead to such a question. Working on your triads and the diminished triad and I was thinking I don't understand this dim, dim 7, half dim thing.

    I will work through all of the above thanks again everyone.
    Oh, crap... my bad triple G. Well, it's never bad to poke around and explore. But ultimately it comes back to tension and resolution - both harmonically and melodically - and I think we could really even boil that down to the notion of function. What is a note or a chords function at any moment. The concept of Melodic Triads allows us to change a notes function depending on what we want from it. We can turn most (but not all) notes into resolution points over essentially any chord if we know what Melodic Triad to employ. They can become interchangeable pretty quickly.
    But in terms of the harmony that's present, and the function of that... generally that's going to be built inside the form and the chord progression.

    A half diminished 7 or a -7b5 is GENERALLY going to be functioning as the 2 in a minor 2 5 1 or as a substituted 2 chord in a major key to get some mode mixture
    think CMaj7 -> Fmin or Dhalfdim/C
    x3545x -> x3656x

    Other than more non-functional and pan-tonal vibes in like Wayne Shorter and more modern tunes, that's probably the most common times we see a half dim 7 chord vs the full diminished. I'll admit, it's pretty rare to just see a diminished triad in a lead sheet. But it is it's own separate thing. If I saw that I'd probably attempt to play it the way the composer specified, as simply a triad. If I were to improvise over it, I'd probably try and see what the melody was doing (which if the composer is specific enough to put it as a straight triad in the harmony, the melody likely reflects the same information) and/or I'd just look at it's function in the progression and make some decisions from there.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Hey, many thanks Christian. Are you talking about the free masterclasses lessons? Or the new Melodic Triads Study Group stuff?

    Whichever you're referring to, yeah, I obviously get into the triad thing pretty heavily. Just works really well for the sounds I'm always trying to find.

    It's always just about tension and resolution points really, for me at least. Very similar to the 6 vs dim idea. Except instead of a 4 note resolution system, I just approach it as a 3 note resolution system and then allow for the tension notes to revolve around that.

    So over a fully diminished 7 chord, one option might be to avoid the 7th and focus on the root triad to prevent us from getting caught up in that swirl of min3 and diminished movement that's so obvious to spot. If we just start with let's say a basic C diminished triad over the Cdim7 and we add the 4
    C-Eb-F-Gb
    we end up essentially with a blues pattern. We can't go all the way up to the nat 5 (ok, we can do anything we want to... but within the confines of this specific tonality, it's not there) but all the 1-b3-4-b5 bluesy pull off stuff is there. Like what if we play a C note, drop down a tritone to the Gb and immediately slide or pull off to the F note and then end off with a little Eb down to C movement. Straight up soul and blues... over a C diminished 7 chord. Or we could add the 2 and do a quick b3 -> 2 slide or pull off and then resolve down to the root. Again, another bluesy soulful approach to playing over a diminished.

    I'm really not talking about anything that can't be found within the whole-half diminished scale already. Just that we tend to jump straight for the fully diminished sound and execution and develop our diminished vocabulary around that... for me this just helps offer a way to get inside and explore different sounds and find other colors I might want to use. Not to mention that we can get away from the basic root structure diminished triad and use other triad types in the upper structure to completely change up the texture. One of my favorite sounds is using major triads to play over fully diminished 7 chords. Just make the diminished quality sound so simple and almost "obvious".

    But all that said... yeah if I'm hearing a simple diminished triad as the entirety of the harmonic sound I want in my head, that's likely what I would write out... but I would never force it to be something just for the sake of intellectual gratification. Whichever way it goes on the paper to be arranged for the horn section, or voicings for the piano or the guitar, or chord notation for comping and soloing... I'm just going to do my best to convey to the musicians as simply as possible what they need to know to help bring to life whatever sounds I'm hearing in my head and attempting to create with a group.
    Free lessons, ATM..... I am slow to apply... But I'd rather have the simple stuff ingrained before exploring more complex things. TBH just properly learning the dim triads is a task for me, because I never really learned them.

    Of course one reason why the dim7 is so useful to guitarists, but also potentially such a cliche sound is the repeating fingering thing. Learning to resolve dim7s to all the different chords is a great thing if you want to play bop or swing, but the sound can get tiring.

    Using the dim triad instead melodically can be a good way to slightly thwart expectations... Not in a big way, just in a small way.

    I'm reminded a bit of the lines in Donna Lee that go 3-5-b7-1-b9-#9-b9-1 from the point of view of a V7b9, or 1 - b3 - b5 - b6 - 6 - - not quite a dim arpeggio, just different enough to catch the ear. Now you can see these things as belonging to the diminished scale and sequence accordingly. That's not how I see them (they fall out of Barry Harris stuff in a different way.)

    The W-H scale can sometimes sound a bit much, but can sometimes sound great... It's nice to have a few options here.....

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Free lessons, ATM..... I am slow to apply... But I'd rather have the simple stuff ingrained before exploring more complex things. TBH just properly learning the dim triads is a task for me, because I never really learned them.
    It's actually ironic... but I find that the "free masterclasses" are far more advanced than what we're doing in the study group... which is also incidentally free. They're both heavily reliant upon the melodic triad concept. But I started the free masterclasses partially to hold myself accountable to getting back into the shed... so it jumps right back into advanced application... often time without boring folks with the methodic approach to getting the fundamentals together and why things work this way. Whereas the study group I started to actually try and help others begin to find more of a sense of freedom in their own ideas by letting them pick up from wherever they are with triads and begin building things more logically from the ground up... hopefully getting into advanced and more fun things as well. But actually trying to get into it from the basics first.

    Arguably... if I could go back in time and start the study group first and skip over all the time I've spent and continue to spend on the free masterclasses... I probably would. Learn as we go, you know?