The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi All,

    First, Happy Holidays!

    I was just wondering how many of you treat the fretboard as thinking of flats/sharps of the key.

    Basic example, F Major -> Bb is the only flat/sharp, C Minor -> Eb, Ab and Bb

    And if you think in this way as you're playing. Apologies if this is a dumb question.. Cheers

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Scales, chords, arpeggios, intervals are all an important part of mapping out the fretboard but at
    a certain point, they no longer required much thought.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Scales, chords, arpeggios, intervals are all an important part of mapping out the fretboard but at
    a certain point, they no longer required much thought.
    Right, I suppose what I meant was:

    How many of you are thinking note names, vs intervals, vs key/fretboard patterns etc.., while you're playing? And if it's not one or the other, if a certain way of thinking holds more weight over the others - even if your technique has got you past this.

    Thanks in advance.

  5. #4

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    While just soloing, I never think about flats/sharps etc. I do know the notes all over the neck but I rather prefer to concentrate on intervals and hope that my fingers and ears can work together and don't get lost. It seems pretty doable for me - not to ponder about notes/keys while playing an impro. But only just soloing. Comping is different, must keep the keys always in mind. Still relying on patterns more than individual notes&sharps&flats.

    Btw, not suggesting/advertising anything. I'm still quite noobish here

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Right, I suppose what I meant was:

    How many of you are thinking note names, vs intervals, vs key/fretboard patterns etc.., while you're playing? And if it's not one or the other, if a certain way of thinking holds more weight over the others - even if your technique has got you past this.

    Thanks in advance.
    Yes and no.

    In your woodshed:
    1. You have to master all your basic technical material (scales, chords, arpeggios, intervals)

    2. You have to internalize all kinds of sounds, patterns, lines, motifs etc.

    3. When learning a tune you have to get familiar with all parts of it. You have to make it your friend. It can be somewhat like moving into a house and getting comfortable with every room.

    When improvising a solo:
    You certainly have to be fully cognizant of the form, key center, changes etc. but there is not really any time to think of individual note names and accidentals as they are flying out of your mind and off your fingers. You have to use your ear and your kinetic sense, and if you'll forgive the term - "flow" to make music extemporaneously.

  7. #6

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    I guess in general I'm thinking note names, my ear tells me I played something I wasn't expecting and I think okay how to make this work (depending on context). I used to think in the big fretboard pattern but found that cumbersome and start looking at smaller pieces that can be used many different ways.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Hi All,

    First, Happy Holidays!

    I was just wondering how many of you treat the fretboard as thinking of flats/sharps of the key.

    Basic example, F Major -> Bb is the only flat/sharp, C Minor -> Eb, Ab and Bb

    And if you think in this way as you're playing. Apologies if this is a dumb question.. Cheers
    I don't really think when I'm playing music.

    When I'm practicing reading, I do the notes thing.

    But in general, if I think of notes in this way I think in terms of numbered degrees of the scale 1 2 3 etc. So 3 is E in the key of C, and C in the key of Ab etc.

    This seems to work well with the way the fret-board is arranged and also relative pitch ear training.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    But in general, if I think of notes in this way I think in terms of numbered degrees of the scale 1 2 3 etc. So 3 is E in the key of C, and C in the key of Ab etc.

    This seems to work well with the way the fret-board is arranged and also relative pitch ear training.
    I think this is called the "Nashville System" .

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I think this is called the "Nashville System" .
    I think it's called the Christian Miller system and they ripped it off.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think it's called the Christian Miller system and they ripped it off.
    Quite right. After they discovered your system, the Nashville, err, "punters" were seen taking bets on Tyne-Wear derby.

    Nothing gets a true Tennesseean going like arguing where they fall on Geordie Divide.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Hi All,

    First, Happy Holidays!

    I was just wondering how many of you treat the fretboard as thinking of flats/sharps of the key.

    Basic example, F Major -> Bb is the only flat/sharp, C Minor -> Eb, Ab and Bb

    And if you think in this way as you're playing. Apologies if this is a dumb question.. Cheers
    If I'm playing a song where I have internalized the changes (meaning I can feel where they're going and don't have to think about anything -- as easily as a 12 bar blues), then I don't think about note names.

    But, if I don't know the tune that well, then I do have to think. What I think is a mashup of different things which I learned at different stages. Often, I will think about note names. Sometimes, I think about geometric patterns which I have memorized, most of which are arpeggios. Less often, I think about chord grips.

    My recommendation to the student is to learn the entire fretboard absolutely cold. Meaning, you know, without thinking, the name of the note at every fret on every string. The best way to do this is by learning to read.

    Then, learn the notes in the chords you use. Then, learn the extensions and tensions of each chord, which you can do by scale or by interval.

    So, for example, you'll know that a tonic Cmaj7 has C E G and B. And, you'll know that A and D are going to sound good, because they will give a C6/9 sound. F can work too, if you don't make the line sound like G7. That's 7 notes which you can pick one at a time, like I just did, or you can think of as C Ionian or Cmaj13.

    There are 5 more notes, all of which are more likely to sound like clams if you don't embed them in nice melody. They are Db, Eb, F#, G# and Bb. Of these, F# is most likely to be useful, because it gives a lydian sound (play Cmaj7#11 to hear it). The Bb makes it sound like more like a C7, which tends to blur the key you're in. The others are hard to use.

    This is all likely to seem overwhelming at first (and maybe at second and third), but if you do this homework, it will help with soloing and comping.

    But, it isn't a single massive homework assignment. Rather, you start with a simple tune, say All Of Me, in the key of C and figure it out for every chord. Which notes will work easily (C D E G A B on the first chord of the tune). Which will require a little more care (F and F#). Which ones are going to be clams unless you play a great line (Db Eb Ab Bb). Then make melody accordingly. I think you'll find that singing first results in lines you like better. I'd suggest using backing tracks. I use IRealPro which has pretty good comping and can change key every chorus.

    To press a little further, the next chord is E7. E G# B D are the chord tones - hard to make them sound like clams. D# is the maj7, which will mess with the 7th (dominant) sound of the chord, so you're going to be very careful with it.

    So, now consider the 9ths. There are three choices, b9, nat9 and #9. Strum the chords from the top so you hear Cmaj going to E7. Now do it again three times more. The first time play E7b9 and the second time play E9. The third time play E7#9. T Which ones do you like? To me, the nat9, F# sounds most consonant. The others are going to have to be used more cautiously.

    Now do the same thing with b5, 5 and #5. To my ear, nat 5 sounds consonant, #5 sounds more clammy and b5 sounds somewhere in between.

    That's 10 notes addressed and evaluated. What are the other 2? One is the 4th, A. I don't hear it in the chord, but I do hear it as a good passing tone. C# is another. I hear as consonant, but kind of unstable. When I play it, I'm drawn to following it with a C and a B. I don't want to lean on the C#.

    So, now I know. E G# B D and F# are going to be consonant.

    A is going to sound pretty consonant but better as a passing tone.

    C#, Bb, #C, F (which, personally I prefer to the F# for soloing, although I'd comp the F#) and G all can work, but with greater care. Of these, I think Bb and G are the least consonant, but you may hear it differently.

    D# is going to sound like a clam unless I'm clever.

    Great players can make any note sound brilliant. A great player can also make just the chord tones sound brilliant, although a less advanced player might make them sound boring. Players have characteristic use of harmony that gives them an individual sound. That could be seen as limiting or the ultimate goal, depending on your viewpoint.

    Back to All of Me. Then, you can transpose it say, to the key of G and work out the chords in that key. Pick another tune you like and work through it. Each time, make sure you understand the roles of all 12 notes (or scales and grips if you do it that way).
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 12-24-2017 at 09:19 PM.

  13. #12
    Great replies so far..

    As most of my learning so far has been off recordings, by ear per se, I have to say my approach is based on intervals and licks, bit of triads/arps/chord tones to get around the fretboard. Starting to feel this might not be enough, and wondering if I should devote serious practice/study time to scales in all keys. Like knowing the notes in every scale, every key sort of thing. Would I be headed down a long torturous path? where I could be spending that time elsewhere?

    I should say that my focus now is on single line melody and improv

    Again, thoughts much appreciated!

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I used to think in the big fretboard pattern but found that cumbersome and start looking at smaller pieces that can be used many different ways.
    This is basically what I've been trying to decide over recently.

  15. #14

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    It would not be a shortcut, that much I know. Best is to think through what you want to achieve and if the method will do that for you. All I can say that knowing each note in every key wouldn't be as useful as knowing each scale degree inside and out - that's the true rabbit hole. There is so much to learn. Fortunately it can be a very musical journey if wanting it to be like that. But again - I'm not enough advanced player to swear on me mum.

  16. #15

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    Whichever way you choose, rest assured that there's a great player who did it in a completely different way.

    If one of the criteria is lowering the probability of wasting time going down a blind alley ... I'd still suggest learning the fretboard by learning to read. It's hard for me to imagine anybody would regret that.

    I also can't see much downside in learning the notes in the chords you use.

    After that, I'm a lot less certain. It may depend on the individual. The classic way is to learn from recordings and bandstand experience. It seems to me that putting that together with some technical knowledge, e.g. knowing the notes in the chords, the underlying scales, extensions and tensions, may be helpful to many players. Might help keep it organized in your mind so that you can find the sounds when you need them. Or, maybe you'd be better off simply doing it by ear. Hard to say.

    So where are the unproductive rabbit holes? This will depend entirely on who you ask. I have been down a few, or so it seemed to me, but other players report doing the same things with great results.

    That said, here are some things that didn't work efficiently for me:

    1. Trying to use theory to find sounds to incorporate in my playing. I found this helpful at first, learning for example, to use altered 5s and 9s on dominant chords. But, the time I spent doing things like trying various triad pairs against various bass notes was wasted.

    2. Reading transcribed solos. This always seemed like a good idea. But, I got very little of it into my own playing.

    3. Trying to make music based on applying a particular scale to a particular chord. Apparently, I'm in the minority on this one.

    4. Focusing excessively on note choice and not focusing intensely on time. Time is more important than note choice, on average, IMO. Stated another way, if your time sucks, your note choice won't matter.

    Good luck!

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I don't really think when I'm playing music.

    When I'm practicing reading, I do the notes thing.

    But in general, if I think of notes in this way I think in terms of numbered degrees of the scale 1 2 3 etc. So 3 is E in the key of C, and C in the key of Ab etc.

    This seems to work well with the way the fret-board is arranged and also relative pitch ear training.
    I also do the same. To me this 'works' because knowing what the "degrees of the scale" helps with both chords and soloing. E.g. one wants to add a 6th, and drop the 5th from a chord. With soloing it helps when one wishes to stress certain notes like the 7th (or flat 7th), 3rd, etc....

    Now where the 'note approach' is best is for playing the top note as a melody note while reading sheet music. But it is easy to translate that melody note into a degree of scale and than to play a chord with that degree on top.

    PS: reading the post more carefully maybe this thread wasn't about songs that have a lot of major chords in them, but instead chord progressions, like II\V, that resolve to a major chord (even if that major chord isn't in the song). E.g. Out of Nowhere
    Last edited by jameslovestal; 12-24-2017 at 09:25 PM.

  18. #17

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    I guess, at some point, your brain manufactures the equivalence table (note names to scale degrees in 12 keys) and it ends up being the same thing.

    I didn't do it by thinking of scale degrees first, but upon reflection, it might have been better if I had thought that way.

    The fact is, neither one occurred to me until fairly recently, and I don't recall ever having had a teacher focus on it either way.

    I had lessons from some great players, who taught me a lot, but there were some important things that never came up. Formal ear training was one. Knowing things by interval was another. Teachers focused on geometric patterns to find notes, but nobody ever suggested simply memorizing the names of the notes in all the chords, scales and/or intervals I use.

  19. #18

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    I think more in key
    Say F , learning to play in F all over the guitar ...

    Im playing off shapes mainly
    things that sound good (in F)
    I know where F is in a few places on the neck
    I learned the CAGED shapes
    But I've no idea what notes I'm playing
    Oh dear !

    I learn a blues in F , Birks Works then
    a standard in F Ipanema or something
    The key of F is a world to explore around kinda thing

  20. #19

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    Sorry , bit pissed !

    Happy Xmas


    Hurrah !

  21. #20

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    Seems to me learning to read which I am discovering is a very useful skill and knowing the notes of the fret board in relation to the written score go hand in hand.

    Will

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
    Seems to me learning to read which I am discovering is a very useful skill and knowing the notes of the fret board in relation to the written score go hand in hand.

    Will
    Yeah I may be headed in this direction.. goal being freedom on the guitar, able to think more musically I suppose? Up to this point I've taught myself to think in intervals, patterns, chords, licks, and connecting these. Recently realized I'm hardly aware of which notes are passing by, usually just the root and then the intervals, which is mostly based on chord shapes/patterns I see.

    I'll assume musicians on other instruments (thinking horns) know every note they're spitting out? Or think of it that way at least?

    Does anyone know how the Universities go about teaching this for guitar?

    Cheers

  23. #22

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    I feel that good readers aren't necessarily thinking about what individual notes they play either.... but I'm not a good enough reader to say for sure.

  24. #23

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    When I played sax, while in the zone it was just a direct connection between the idea and the execution. I'd hear it and it came right out. There was no note, there was no fingering. When reading a given pitch was in one place/fingering.

    With the guitar it certainly is getting better, but there still is the thought step that keeps it from being truly in the moment...

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by guido5
    When I played sax, while in the zone it was just a direct connection between the idea and the execution. I'd hear it and it came right out. There was no note, there was no fingering. When reading a given pitch was in one place/fingering.

    With the guitar it certainly is getting better, but there still is the thought step that keeps it from being truly in the moment...
    I've been having a think about this, and I think what is a bit weird is that when we read we often learn to read in positions. And I think you have to go through this stage of doing things.

    However, no competent guitarist plays music in set positions because the fingerings etc are chosen for musical reasons. For instance, if you have to play an enclosure around chord tones in a line, it makes sense to finger the enclosure notes on the same string so you can articulate them with a slur if required.

    To do this when reading would require you to recognise complete music objects/phrases.... If you are thinking F D# E, for instance, you can't do that - but if you think chromatic enclosure of E, you can.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Hi All,

    First, Happy Holidays!

    I was just wondering how many of you treat the fretboard as thinking of flats/sharps of the key.

    Basic example, F Major -> Bb is the only flat/sharp, C Minor -> Eb, Ab and Bb

    And if you think in this way as you're playing. Apologies if this is a dumb question.. Cheers
    My frame leads me to conclude that learning to think of flats/sharps of the key is a hiding to nothing - except when it isn't.

    Imo, learning to think of flats/sharps of the key is definitely prudent as a preparatory step in learning rules - especially at a piano/keyboard prior to transfer to the guitar - but it's more maths/problem-solving than music.

    Under no circumstances would I do so while actually playing/performing music - which is to say mindfully 'listening to/observing' the harmonies and melodies I 'sing' mentally, then going only with those phrases which seem an obvious 'best fit'. I can improvise pretty lines on trumpet without having to think of flats/sharps of the key.

    And, until a few months ago, I'd even stopped thinking in that way when learning new tunes - because, having assimilated from recordings the sounds that work for me, I eventually realised that I'd accumulated sufficient resources by ear to accompany myself and solo over a sizeable repertoire of standards.

    On the other hand, in the case of standards, being able to think of flats/sharps of the key makes possible the preparation of alternative changes for soloing - thereby transforming tired old tunes by introducing beautiful and/or exciting ones.

    Moreover, it opens up the possibility of playing a range of sounds that would otherwise be beyond one's reach (I'm learning to recontextualise pop, while studying Wes, Corea and Coltrane).

    The net effect is a more active and productive (rather than passive and receptive) role in the spontaneous musical conversation that is 'jazz' - as opposed to 'guitar', which is... er... merely 'instrumental'.

    Merry Christmas, all!
    Last edited by destinytot; 12-25-2017 at 10:47 AM.