The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Posts 26 to 33 of 33
  1. #26

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Right, I suppose what I meant was:

    How many of you are thinking note names, vs intervals, vs key/fretboard patterns etc.., while you're playing? And if it's not one or the other, if a certain way of thinking holds more weight over the others - even if your technique has got you past this.

    Thanks in advance.
    I think I'm thinking about the chord change of the moment into the upcoming chord change and the chord tone I'm on or am targeting (3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, etc.).

    Sometimes I'm thinking scale type, if it's not typical major/minor -- but never mode names. (More like "whole tone" or "diminished," if I'm going there.)

    I'm not thinking note names, keys, or key signatures.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    I sometimes practice by selecting a tune on IRealPro at random and soloing by ear. So, in that situation, I don't even know what key I'm in. I hear the chord and then play a note. If the note is a clam, I slide into a different one. After that, I do it by sound, and I can't explain it in words.

    But, if I'm reading, or thinking about chord changes, I may very well think of note names or arps. So, for example, if I'm around the 7th fret and the new chord is a G7, I have an oft-practiced arp, and I may play it. Maybe not art, but not clams either. If I see, say, Bb7#11, I may very well jump to a E note, because I know it's the #11. I might also think Fmelmin -- I know the notes in that scale and where they are. So sometimes I'll do it that way. Other times I might see the Bb7#11 and think xx 12 13 13 13 or xx 12 13 13 12 and play off the chord form. Still other times, if the tempo is slow enough, I might think of a different chord generated by Fmelmin and play off a grip for it. For example playing E7#9 at the 6th fret.

    This is either a disorganized mashup or a clever way to avoid repeating myself. I go back and forth on that.

  4. #28
    I think the idea of "what you think when playing" vs "what you think when learning it all or while practicing" are probably different things. Might be confusing talking about all of it at once. I don't know.

    With horn or keys, I'd always been more inclined to think of things in terms of absolute pitch, at least as the basic starting point. Or more like...at least it was an OPTION. With guitar, pattern always took over, and it was very difficult (nearly impossible) to silence the voice of pattern. I mean once your fingers know what pattern it is, they kind of take over thinking that way. Almost the opposite with other instruments for me. Pattern and awareness of other relationships, like intervals or key or chord of the moment, are more like add-on, bonus features. Feels backwards on guitar.

    Anyway, the only way I've found you really silence the voice of pattern etc - to lessen the mental noise - is the 2nd finger/6th string reference and relating concretely to absolute pitch. Slows/calms things down for me while learning. Ironically, I find that the more I know about what things are in terms of pitch in the moment, the more I can actually let go as well.

  5. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I think the idea of "what you think when playing" vs "what you think when learning it all or while practicing" are probably different things. Might be confusing talking about all of it at once. I don't know.

    With horn or keys, I'd always been more inclined to think of things in terms of absolute pitch, at least as the basic starting point. Or more like...at least it was an OPTION. With guitar, pattern always took over, and it was very difficult (nearly impossible) to silence the voice of pattern. I mean once your fingers know what pattern it is, they kind of take over thinking that way. Almost the opposite with other instruments for me. Pattern and awareness of other relationships, like intervals or key or chord of the moment, are more like add-on, bonus features. Feels backwards on guitar.

    Anyway, the only way I've found you really silence the voice of pattern etc - to lessen the mental noise - is the 2nd finger/6th string reference and relating concretely to absolute pitch. Slows/calms things down for me while learning. Ironically, I find that the more I know about what things are in terms of pitch in the moment, the more I can actually let go as well.
    Some really good points here. Since I've been spending most of my time practicing lately, as opposed to just playing, I guess my head's been in that space. Having said that, I've been really focusing on slow technique, tone, singing the notes, absolute basic stuff, and noticed how much it's helped when I do play.

    The one major difference I've noticed is getting around the fretboard. I've been consciously practicing with no fingering 'system'/patterns, thinking only of each note name as I play scales, arps, triads etc.. While doing this I'll jump to unorthodox positions across the fretboard, just to hit the notes, not necessarily what's 'easiest' for my fingers. I've been having great success with this so far. I'd like to go forward with this, I'm only afraid of the amount of time that could be spent elsewhere. How important is some sort of fingering system, when I could potentially play wherever I want on the fretboard just thinking note names and having naturalized intervals? If I do go forward training this way.. Would it take a lifetime to play decently like this? I'm trying to incorporate it into playing, it's just time consuming, like starting from the beginning again in a way. I AM in it for the long haul, for the record.

    Again, thoughts much appreciated!

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Some really good points here. Since I've been spending most of my time practicing lately, as opposed to just playing, I guess my head's been in that space. Having said that, I've been really focusing on slow technique, tone, singing the notes, absolute basic stuff, and noticed how much it's helped when I do play.

    The one major difference I've noticed is getting around the fretboard. I've been consciously practicing with no fingering 'system'/patterns, thinking only of each note name as I play scales, arps, triads etc.. While doing this I'll jump to unorthodox positions across the fretboard, just to hit the notes, not necessarily what's 'easiest' for my fingers. d!
    This is, more or less, the way I do it. I noticed, a few years ago, that I could play on C Ionian (white keys) without having to think about anything but the note names. Easy to remember the Key of C and I knew where they all are because I can read standard notation. I could do it almost as easily for key of F or G, but not so well for Db or B. Since the music I play changes key (or tonal center, anyway) a lot, I decided to drill myself on all 12 keys until they were automatic. I then did it with the chords I play and with melodic minor.

    This is a lot of work. But, it seemed to me that the alternative was trying to learn patterns for all of it in 5 places on the fingerboard. My experience of learning patterns is that I usually have to start them at the beginning. I couldn't reliably jump into a pattern somewhere in the middle, even if I'd been using the pattern for years -- well, maybe if I happened to be on the right finger/fret. So, that way struck me as even more work. I think I'm in a small minority on this, but I decided to go with it.

    The main disadvantages:

    At high tempo I don't have as many well-practiced patterns that I can execute effortlessly. So, I tend to have to use longer notes -- say, quarters and eighths where I wish I could execute 16ths.

    Also, I don't sound like a typical jazz player, even when I'm making the changes of a typical jazz tune. I don't know if that's due to this approach; I couldn't sound that way when I did it the other way. Apparently, there are things I don't quite hear and it may be that my approach doesn't foster expansion of my harmonic palette. I don't know, but I mention it as a possible weakness to the approach.

    An unexpected advantage:

    It got me away from thinking in chord grips while comping. If you know all the notes in the chords you're using, it becomes easier to find 2 notes, or 3 notes, which give the sound without making mud against the piano. And, that, oddly enough, seems to have made it easier to play without reading a chord chart. I find that I can play a note or two, singly, and, from hearing what I just played, I can find a couple more notes in the chord of the moment and voila! I'm comping successfully. Often, I'm playing a configuration that I would not have found if I was thinking about grips.

    Final caveat:

    Most players, including many greats, don't do it this way, as far as I know.

  7. #31

    User Info Menu

    One serious thought is to not neglect the things already have been practiced. If gotten to that elusive 100% with one skill, never let go - you might need it later. Best ever philosophy is that "nothing is useless". And keeping a skill alive is a matter of minutes each day. Later it may take a hour to go through all the little things you know already but it could hurt if something is forgotten for a year.. I've had quite a few such regrets. Treat all of those as a warmup and it makes perfect sense. You said " I AM in it for the long haul" so, just in case had to say something about that

  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    The 2nd finger/6th string reference fingerings helped me, too.

    Since switching to three fingers for lines (and trying to play only what I'm 'singing in my head'), I haven't thought consciously about those references. I've been using pentatonics instead.

    When I first started doing this (a few months ago), I held a pick between my fingers while using my thumb (in case I suddenly felt a need to 'play faster' ).

    But since I started practising (tunes, not scales) with thumb only, I'm a lot more comfortable navigating the neck while improvising - and using the thumb also seems to be improving my use of the pick.

    (I almost gave up on picking heavy flats on archtop after putting roundwound 10s on Tele, but I've ended up using a thinner pick on archtop with better control.)

    I'm aware that I'm only scratching the surface, but - having glimpsed the satisfaction and pleasure available from playing great tunes - I'm going deeper every day.

  9. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    The 2nd finger/6th string reference fingerings helped me, too.

    Since switching to three fingers for lines (and trying to play only what I'm 'singing in my head'), I haven't thought consciously about those references. I've been using pentatonics instead.

    When I first started doing this (a few months ago), I held a pick between my fingers while using my thumb (in case I suddenly felt a need to 'play faster' ).

    But since I started practising (tunes, not scales) with thumb only, I'm a lot more comfortable navigating the neck while improvising - and using the thumb also seems to be improving my use of the pick.

    (I almost gave up on picking heavy flats on archtop after putting roundwound 10s on Tele, but I've ended up using a thinner pick on archtop with better control.)

    I'm aware that I'm only scratching the surface, but - having glimpsed the satisfaction and pleasure available from playing great tunes - I'm going deeper every day.
    I also use three fingers for lines, which feels less restricting to me.. or less complicated maybe.