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Well, jazz education is the main gig going if you can get it. Also, performances and album sales to those in jazz education. Also, if you put out a book you need some cool 'concept'.
Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
Vicious circle....
But that's not to say that the old guys had no concept. It's more that musicians seem preoccupied with complexity for its own sake.
OTOH, I think the younger generation are actually quite interested in doing something audiences might enjoy with all of that concept, if not exactly the Great American Songbook...:
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02-10-2018 01:53 PM
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I'm going to take a shot at this thread. The subject is something I think about a lot.
First some caveats. This post is about my experience. Everybody else's is different. A lot of it is about failure in areas that others succeed. I am not suggesting that what I went through would be helpful to anybody else. No matter how you approach anything in music, there's always a great player who did it a different way.
That said ...
I spent years trying to achieve a certain classic jazz guitar sound and never got it. Transcribing, which I should have done more, didn't get me there. Reading transcriptions was even less helpful. I learned a lot of theory (and I still read a lot), and only some, maybe a little bit, of it was helpful. I found learning to read, chord construction, tonal centers, arps, common chord cadences and some chord substitution helpful. More abstract theories, going through lists of "this arp or scale against that chord", were a waste of time for me (although I know great players who swear by it).
None of that got me to the sound I was striving for. I liked it when I heard somebody else do it, but I couldn't do it -- and I didn't get many calls for gigs.
What finally got me off that plateau was giving up on it.
At that point, I rethought what I wanted to do.
I accepted that improv, for me, was going to be singing a line in my mind and playing it, with minimal theoretical considerations. And, those lines weren't going to sound even remotely like Joe Pass, not because I didn't want to, but because I'd tried for so long and failed. Also, I wasn't going to spend much more time trying to internalize sounds based on theoretical considerations. If I couldn't already hear it, I wasn't going to play it.
I worked on getting a tone from the guitar that allowed me to get my lines to sound the way I wanted -- mostly ways to thicken the sound, so legato notes are strong. That took some hours fiddling with my ME80 pedalboard until I got patches that allowed me to play the way I wanted.
I stopped trying to use theoretical considerations at all while soloing. I realized that every time I started thinking that way, my solo started to suck. The exception was in situations where I couldn't hear the harmony in my mind and I'd have to rely on chord tones and extensions to avoid clams.
After a couple of years of focusing on that, the phone started to ring.
I ended up feeling like I wasted a lot of time chasing things I could never grasp -- and a lot of the theory was high on the list. I know that there are good players who would say I should have gone for even more theory to work through the barriers. My response is that I found life too short for that. If somebody else can do it, great.
One thing that may be an exception: ear training. The more, the better. You're there when you know what everybody else is playing in the band -- and if the pianist makes a mistake, you know what he should have played and, also, what he did play. Memorizing tunes then becomes easier because you can hear the changes in your mind and know what they are.
So, now, my initial reaction to highly theoretical posts, especially if I can't understand the language, is mild irritation. Even though I know they are well intended and maybe are exactly what somebody else needs.
Probably a character flaw on my part, but that's how I feel about it.
My prescription for playing jazz is that you need the ability to play what you're hearing in your head. Whatever you play, it has to be played with great time feel. If you get bored with the lines/harmonies in your soloing, then you need to expand your vocabulary. I think the traditional way is probably best. Find something you like and copy it. Apply it to other tunes. Play in combos as often as you possibly can, and try to always be the worst player in the room. If your self-esteem can handle it, your musicianship will grow the fastest possible.
If you decide to try to acquire a specific skill, say, playing a particular scale against a particular chord to achieve a certain sound -- great, but make sure you do it in the context of tune, while listening to a backing track and singing along - to internalize the sound -- and stop thinking about the math as soon as possible.
Rant mode off.
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I use a small number of licks.
I learned almost every one of them by hearing another guitar player play it right in front of me. Often, while I was comping.
For some reason, I can retain things I've learned that way far more efficiently than if I figured it out from a recording, read a transcription or applied a theory.
For some players, style is the result of free will. That is, there are players who have the ears, chops and knowledge to play whatever they might want to.
For others, well, I'll speak for myself, it seems like there are a zillion things I can't do. I ended up thinking about calligraphy. I'm thinking about the skill of making a piece of visual art with one color of ink and a quick stroke. It's not an oil painting with subtleties of color, but it's still art and people still like to look at it. Why couldn't that happen with music? Of course, it happens all the time. John Lee Hooker's music had great feeling and people loved it -- and he didn't play many chords. So, the question became, can I make something good with the tools that I already have?
I ended up feeling that, for some of us, style has as much to do with your limitations as your abilities.
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Yea the memorized thing... everything is memorized, I disagree. Some understandings are memorized, and will produce new results...
I hate analogies, but you memorize an arpeggio... then learn through understanding concepts of relationships and different references that that arpeggio can become something very musically different. Long story short... your teaching your ears and memory how to open new doors and create and interact completely different... through understanding of how to use memory.
Not just play same memorized material and embellish etc... It's a different skill, being able to perform something that you haven't performed before, and not just through embellishment, understanding of what your embellishing... and then embellishing the understanding.
I get it... all the BS is just that, You can play or you can't. But the music world is where it's at. And telling guitarist to just play ... be like a pro basketball player.... The problem is Pro basketball players are just that, they're pros, they already have the skills and understanding of the game... Most guitarist don't have the skills and very little understandings... of the game...playing jazz.
The other detail... guitarist generally only solo.... what maybe 20 to 25% of the time they play. I also play trombone... and don'y comp behind a soloist ... maybe some background lines... the point.... we as guitarist need to understand Harmony and theory also, beyond improvising concepts.
I generally make long detailed post... because I try and breakdown musically whats going on. I can and have just made vids but generally I'm not sure that much is actually picked up... I can verbally describe what I'm playing etc... usually using musical terms and expanded understanding of existing musical concepts. I'm not doing it for myself, not selling anything, don't need the $, or gigs.
If you read my first response to p1p ... back on page 2. That is my basic answer to the thread question.......the discussion has evolved on to different aspects of playing... like Rpjazzguitar's post.... like he said... he worked for years and wasn't happy... He sounds like he playing well now, cool. But he obviously put in some work. You can't throw away what you don't have.... And if you don't have or haven't finished whatever skill or understanding your working on... Maybe your just clearing your head and working with what you have... which is and always has been what you should do.
All the one liners and basic common sense advise is or should be obvious... It's when we try and discuss the larger concepts without understanding the details ... it get complicated.
Just like sight reading complex new music charts.... is difficult when you can't sight read.
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Hey p1p. You can’t imagine that they were thinking of all of these scales while playing because they weren’t. The masters learned by ear and by being in bands and being gigging musicians. Many of the greats didn’t read. Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery etc. That’s not to say that one shouldn’t learn how to read or that it hinders playing but it isn’t a necessity. Think of children for a moment. When they enter kindergarten, are they mute just because they can’t read or write? Certainly not. Everything they know how to say they’ve heard thousands of times from their parents, other adults, tv, the radio and so on and they learn how and when to say certain things based on context; context they’ve heard over and over. Music is no different. Music is speech and jazz is a language. These guys did exactly what you said you were doing: copying off records (or in the very old days, gigging and copying off each other and the Live music of the day.)
Now I’m not saying people didn’t think about scales at some point. Obviously bebop didn’t just fall out of the sky. Parker worked on it heavily and thought things through in conjunction with his study of Bach and many others. But he put all of his thoughts together in the shed and then tried them out live. He was not thinking scales WHILE playing. He thought of them beforehand. He had practiced his ideas and material so thoroughly that it was ingrained. Just like if I were to ask you “what did you have for lunch today?” You may answer “I had a sandwich.” Because you know all of those words, when you take a second to think about it, you’re not asking yourself “damn, what do you call that thing that’s made out of two slices of bread?” If anything, all you have to think about is remembering what it was you ate but the sentence is already their in your mind. You don’t have to think about how to put the words together.
My point is, keep doing what you’re doing. You’re doing the right thing. Transcribe solos but take time with them. Don’t transcribe it and practice it just until you can play it. Transcribe it until you’re just about sick of it. If you can play the solo 10+ times in a row with zero mistakes, it’s safe to move on. Soon you’ll find that very language popping up when you “improvise” and you’ll be amazed thinking it’s magic but it’s not. Practicing is training your instincts and your intuition. Keep transcribing great records. Ones you like the sound of. Soon you’ll be slowly getting closer to how you want to sound. Many people misunderstand improvising. They think it’s just making stuff up off the top of your head but it’s not. When you have a conversation with another human, you didn’t have the conversation premeditated, did you? They asked questions and you reacted, on the spot, in the moment and that went back and forth with no real problem. That’s improvising. But if you spoke English and he spoke French that wouldn’t work so well. So the point is, you must first learn what the words are and then learn how to structure “sentences” and so on. And you’ll get all of that from listening and transcribing. Improvising is just putting together words and sentences you already know on the spot. Not making up crap. Remember that.
Hope this helps man!
Keep at it.
Noah
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Awesomely great playing there ... Originally Posted by christianm77
Kids huh how do they get that great
so young ???
I think the current youth CPU's are just clocking faster than , previous generations ....
Not just the velocity , either , that was
funky , syncopated , everything man
Evolution I guess
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At the risk of pi^%ing everybody off again, where's the melody? Talented, though, I guess - maybe it's my age.
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Agreed, that's far too young and it's certainly not jazz either. That's pop and it sounds just like every other bubblegum girl pop/dance record. Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
This is jazz, and no saxophone (!). Round Midnight's a standard and it helps to know the melody already, but not essential. But if you don't like it/can't appreciate it, too bad. It's back to Stairway To Heaven for you :-)
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Thanks Noah, really great post..
I've found myself in a sort of sweet spot in my study/playing lately. Things are clicking left and right, and I think it's because of how I'm dividing up my time on the guitar; long story short, it probably resembles your depiction of Parker's:
Also, transposing phrases in different keys has helped big time. Originally Posted by Noah D'Innocenzo
With regards to theory.. Instead of sitting down and reading some advanced stuff I don't yet know, I'll now go to these RESOURCES when I feel something needs explaining, or when I need another little piece of the puzzle. Then back to the music. Really, seems like 95% of these puzzle pieces are in the music.
Cheers
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I think that's kind of the point (for me) - bubblegum dance pop composed with a jazz sensibiility, with improvisation, complex harmony sometimes influenced by contemporary classical, syncopation and fusion live band chops... Kind post post-modern if it makes any sense... Originally Posted by ragman1
To a pop fan, this would sound complex and strange. To jazz ears it sounds like pop. Ain't that funny?
It owes a lot to what Dirty Loops were doing a few years back, but I like a lot better because there's only so many times you can listen to mental reharmonizations of Justin Bieber tunes. And Jacob Collier and Snarky Puppy are in the same general orbit, although not so interesting to me.
Anyway, their studio stuff is a lot more electronic. I enjoy their arrangement of Get Lucky, somehow more Daft Punk than Daft Punk, featuring Tim Lebfebvre on bass:
And then there's this.
And this:
Starts off very conventionally, but keep listening.
I don't know what kind of music it is, but it is certainly highly creative. This is what the generation of jazz players below me are turned on by. This is what the kids I am teaching are listening to.
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Now we're cookin' - you just can't beat Wes! Originally Posted by ragman1
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The young'uns also dig Wes.
I think they're going to work out just great :-)
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Pretty much - I grew up listening to big band and western swing (I'm from OK) and when I started playing pedal steel in the 70's that was the stuff that attracted me (listen to Buddy Emmons and Curly Chalker). Discovered Wes, Tony Mottola, Barney Kessel, Charlie Byrd, Herb Ellis, JS in the 60's and loved it. Problem was, there was no outlet for that type of music in my area and family was more important than chasing dreams so I stayed put. I would be a much more jazz oriented player if I'd been around folks who played it but it just wasn't possible around here. I did most of my playing in country bands (Urban Cowboy!!) and got a chance to jump into theater and loved it - still do but a lot of the shows on the local level are requiring the theaters to use canned music (Ugghhh!!) nowadays. Mostly enjoyed working in Equity level productions where there are no amateurs - it's the real deal but on a local level. As I've said before, around here, if you don't play electric blues or tiki bar music, you don't play. There is a jazz society in a nearby city but they're beyond snooty and 'cliquish' so I don't even go there. I can't think of a single person who I've played with who can play an Am7b5 if asked to - I was once threatened with being fired from a band for playing an 'off' chord (it was a C9!). On top of that, the only upright bass players around are 'bluegrassers' and they run for the hills if you try to play outside the key of G. Originally Posted by christianm77
So I apologize for being somewhat obnoxious at times - I think it's just my musical frustration coming out.
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The guy on keys, Rai Thistlethwayte is from my home town. An extremely talented guy who besides working in various funk and pop bands (he's also a member of successful Aussie group, Thirsty Merc) can sing and play his way with ease through the American songbook. Nice to see him getting the recognition he deserves. Originally Posted by pingu
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No problem man, I’m glad I was able to help in any way!
One thing I’d like to warn you of and ya not to discourage you. Parker was already well versed in the current language of his time before he started experimenting and tried to push the edges with his studies that lead to bebop. There’s nothing wrong with taking some time to noodle around and experiment BUT I highly recommend you don’t start making your own lines at this point. Instead, steep yourself in the language of great players FIRST and for awhile before trying to make your own. The reason being is I’ve seen a lot of people try and discover their “own sound” and use that as a reason to write their own lines. However, your own sound will come out of the language YOU LIKE not the language you MAKE. By trying to make up your own lines too early you’re really just making gibberish. I don’t mean that negatively, I mean it literally. It’s literally like making up your own words and saying them in the middle of an English sentence. No one will understand you and it won’t sound right. That being said, once you’ve studied the language thoroughly for a year or two and you know what the “words” are, certainly try to make some new stuff.
Also, this is very true. The music is the answer to everything and that’s how I’d continue to use those books. Also putting things in all the keys is a great idea. You’ve got the right stuff going man, just stay diligent and focused! Originally Posted by p1p
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It's only 95% when you already have all the skills together, I guess you could call the skills the pieces of the puzzle and the actual puzzle... playing the music... jazz.
It can all work, at least to some point... to some level of proficiency on your instrument you can end up being able to perform jazz tunes basically by chance. But you need to be out and playing... like every day and night 7 days a week. The days of living like Wes, Joe etc... have been gone for years... You can still play most of the nights.... if your willing to put in the time... the the gigs are different, the audiences are different, the venues are different... my point we're living in the now... not the past.
Generally when we're verbally talking about different aspects of being able to Play in a jazz style... like playing over changes- improvisation,
you actually talk nuts and bolts... although Skips statement..." I care about getting through the gig I had tonight which wasn't very enjoyable - my back hurt and my pickups needed raising, and my guitar sounded like crap all evening." Sorry Skip... but that's the best line I've heard in at least a week or two.... and I gig with old working musicians all the time. I'm old... I need to remember that... anyway
I believe that we as the old pros... need to still do our part, the passing on of our skill.... almost all the details of playing jazz and in a jazz style can be verbally explained. Generally when we just say... you need to just play, we're missing the point.
Part of the problem is... most guitarist don't read, don't understand the language, don't understand the theory, harmony... all the standard terminology of talking about music... and then they don't really even understand the instrument, the basic mechanics. Have little awareness of the history of music and when they do... it seems to get caught up in arguments about definitions of details... the semantics.
And then when they do perform... it's about them, their solos, I'll skip the actual structure of the solo...don't really even know what the rhythm section is... let along the actual job. yea the just play part really just doesn't really happen. And the audience?
I've been on this forum for... had to check. I joined 1/2/10...wow, anyway, I've been basically saying the same things from that day. I'm trying to help guitarist become better musicians... I generally never say.... just play.
Disclaimer... I might have. But generally I try and break it down using musical terminology etc... It's a given that one needs to play. Most guitars don't need those words, that's what they do... they over play. How many guitarist hear... hey turn up.
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