The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Yea.. there are lots of approaches to learning to play jazz.

    So first a few point... the usual problem most guitarist become overwhelmed... is from not having the physical part of playing the instrument, the guitar. There are differences between memorizing parts of the fretboard, the neck and actually understanding how the fretboard works.
    It's a 12 fret repeating pattern, I know that sounds simple and obvious.... but 99% of guitarist don't develop a fingering approach which starts with that basic reference. They usually put together a collections of fingerings from arpeggios, chord tones, scales, lick, memorized fragments of other peoples solos etc... all memorized and eventually it does become overwhelming because anything you play... needs to be remembered and then played.

    A simple test is to try and play a melody or head from some standard in a different key. Take a tune in Bb and try and play it in G or Gb.

    I'm guessing... it's not going to happen, and there are a probably a few reasons.. but without having a system of playing that is organized with the guitar fretboard as the basic reference.... it won't ever happen.

    The very basic point is..... if you need to think about how to play something, how to finger it on the guitar, your never going to be in the moment, let alone be ahead of what your playing which is where you should be trying to get. If your in the moment.... your late.

    Your always going to be overwhelmed at the speed of jazz.

    So that is the physical technical aspects of playing the guitar, that's one aspect you need to work on in an organized approach, that has a GOAL. Make a plan with checks points.

    The other aspect is how you play what you play. Most just memorize etc... tunes licks. Your building a collections of memorized performance material... and then you use it with embellishment to play. Nothing wrong with that approach... it works, but it takes a lifetime. And most don't ever get there. They still become overwhelmed when playing, without having the performance memorized.

    Just a note... there isn't one or two little secrets that will open the door to being able to play jazz, it take a balanced approach of many things... getting there works better with an organized learning approach with check points. And most don't have the ability to do this on their own... or the time. But it is very doable.

    Getting back to playing... when you understand what your playing, from having an organized awareness of what your playing, the memorization part becomes not as important. Personally the easiest approach for becoming aware of what your playing is to first become aware of the spatial organization, (where all the in the moments occur in physical time). FORM

    Your playing an eight bar tune... Form is the organization of the music in that eight bar phrase. There are macro and micro organizations going on.
    Ex. take an 8bar rhythm changes "A"
    So the section is in Bb, that would be the big picture.
    Maybe you divide the 8 bars section into 2 four bar phrases... (maybe Bb for 3 bars and F7 for the 4th bar)
    anyway you can continue to keep going micro... two bars one bar etc...

    The point is your aware of a physical organization of the time, the space of that eight bars. You can then start creating relationships... harmonically, melodically ... how ever you chose... or if your performing with other musicians, how someone else chooses.

    Anyway there are standard Forms that almost all music fits into... if you understand Form, you don't have to memorize every tune or anything you play, you can be in the moment, be aware of what has been played and... be aware of what might be coming. You may still make mistakes, not get out what you hear or want....but your not going to be lost.

    The theory, harmony etc...part also takes time and practice. But usually again is a separate skill. Most don't like the theory approach... and generally it's not that important... your going to develop a personal theory approach on your own... and not being aware of the vocabulary, the history and understanding can come later. Your ears and playing can adjust etc...

    I went through most of this process when I was a kid in High School... way back when there wasn't internet, computers, cell anything.

    I physically and on paper put together an organized approach and adjusted as needed for gigs or as needed in general to get my playing act together. ( I did get my sight reading together also, which helped me get jazz gigs while I was still a kid).

    Basically just be aware of where what your doing is going and where it will end up at.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52
    Thank you very much Reg - loads of valuable info there, that I've already read through a couple times and will revisit. Really appreciate it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Basically just be aware of where what your doing is going and where it will end up at.
    This is the revelation I've had recently, and why I've become more focused with how to go forwards with everything..

  4. #53

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    Quick response.

    I consider myself the Ear Training fanatic of the forum and embrace it as part of my JGF identity.

    Here's the rub I get: ear training and theory ARE NOT SEPARATE -- they are two branches from the SAME tree.

    I use ear training studies to internalize the theory I already know. That means singing bass lines, singing arpeggios, singing the missing parts of chords, and recognizing everything in a CONTEXTUAL manner.

    You can own the changes if you can sing the changes. That means starting with the root notes, then going to

    the 3rds and 7ths. I've gotten to speak with trumpet players--big names--and they use similar ex's to train their ears (only got three valves, you gotta hear the rest to produce those notes with truth)

    We should take a book out of the singers, trumpet players, bass players book and learn what all the theory and "right notes" sound like before we move our fingers around.

    That's my perspective. It's not the only perspective--but it is certainly a valid perspective

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Quick response.

    I consider myself the Ear Training fanatic of the forum and embrace it as part of my JGF identity.

    Here's the rub I get: ear training and theory ARE NOT SEPARATE -- they are two branches from the SAME tree.

    I use ear training studies to internalize the theory I already know. That means singing bass lines, singing arpeggios, singing the missing parts of chords, and recognizing everything in a CONTEXTUAL manner.

    You can own the changes if you can sing the changes. That means starting with the root notes, then going to

    the 3rds and 7ths. I've gotten to speak with trumpet players--big names--and they use similar ex's to train their ears (only got three valves, you gotta hear the rest to produce those notes with truth)

    We should take a book out of the singers, trumpet players, bass players book and learn what all the theory and "right notes" sound like before we move our fingers around.

    That's my perspective. It's not the only perspective--but it is certainly a valid perspective
    Yeah, I think for me it's a feedback loop. The two things fit hand in glove.

    One thing I noticed in my extremely brief time playing trombone is how much you have to focus on what the note sounds like. If you can't hear it, you can't play it.

    One way you can simulate this effect on guitar is to finger the notes, but not play them and instead sing them.

    Then you can see if you are right.

  6. #55

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    I am reposting this from a previous page of the EAR TRAINING JOURNAL I started 4 years ago:



    I'm curious to see how long I can last this time around.

    I promise to listen more (to adhere to the tenants of ear training)

    But I also promise to leave again if my ideas (one of the valid perspectives-there are many) are silenced.

    Everyone who plays with me says "wow, you have great ears"

    Those ears help me hang with really great players. Do I cut like they cut--NO!

    But I can hang, and for now, that is amazing for me.

    The cutting will come, but I dunno if I wanna cut--I wanna groove with the band.

    Listen to Reg, he plays with chops BUT--he also knows how to groove

    Yes, finger the notes without playing them is a start. How about just singing away from the instrument?

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Yes, finger the notes without playing them is a start. How about just singing away from the instrument?
    I dunno I'm in two minds about this. You can have this out with TruthHertz at some point, but he pointed out that most people with really good ears in his experience visualise the keyboard - the keyboard itself becomes a form of solfege. My wife deos this - everything is piano in C major for her (and she has better ears than me, very good relative pitch)

    Traditional forms of solfege evolved with the keyboard - in a sense they are the same thing (whether you use numbers or solfege syllables.)

    Now, the question is - do you visualise the keyboard when you play guitar? Or is the link to the fretboard independent to that conception?

    Can the guitar fretboard become a form of visual link?

    Or does none of this matter?

    I would say for my own process, I can write a solo down straight to page without using my instrument, but it feels completely different to playing the guitar by ear.

    Is this something you have yourself, or have you synchronised the two sides of your musicianship in some way?

  8. #57

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    Yes, but the basic reference is piano. (generally just from a historic perspective). At least until you compose and arrange enough to be able to hear different instruments from notation... charts etc... which also happens. Piano is complete and easy... each note has only one way to play... and is easy to visualize early on.

    Ear training is obviously extremely important... but only if you don't have good ears. It's again one of the basics of musicianship. Generally the skill is developed along with everything else... you know ...in an organized approach which works with where one wants to go with their musicianship, which could be just becoming a proficient guitarist.

    Personally, the only musician that I enjoyed singing while they played was Benson. Generally it's more of a distractions etc...

    If your playing guitar... why not actually play like a guitar sounds

  9. #58

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    Technique is extremely important, but only if you don't have good technique
    Sight reading is extremely important, but only if you can't sight read
    Fretboard mapping is extremely important, but only if you don't know the neck

    etc....

  10. #59

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    I subscribe to the learn everything all over the neck is a bad strategy.

    Less is more in so many ways.

    Learn one position (Bb root on the 1st string) inside out. That is two octaves, more than most solos by Chet Baker, Miles Davis etc.

    Learn one Chord and scale and the chords of the scale inside out in that one position including all the chords of the scale and all their inversions.
    Sing all the time. What your playing, when your not playing, along to records etc constantly sing lines, heads, arpeggios etc
    Learn one progression eg a blues in one key inside out (so much is in there)
    Start with the basic i iv v
    Intro the colour tones, one at a time
    Intro chord extensions, learn to comp and create movement
    Intro the jazz changes, the ii v is the diminished etc one chord at a time, slowly

    Stay away from too much information. Study some Charlie Christian, how rad does he sound?

    That way your learning is focused on the sounds, the relationships, your ability to express yourself rather than jumping all over the neck.

    Caveat, my view only but it has taken me from not being able to play anything really to being able to gig in about two years and the confidence to take on any chord chart thrown at me (within reason).

  11. #60

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    Oh, and just one final thought.

    Earmaster Pro 6 is not an app where you just try to figure out notes. It's meant to be used with a college theory book. The program comes with a basic Ear training program along with a Jazz based ear training program helping to use resources like Real Books.

    The program starts with interval comparison (the program is building relative pitch) unison, minor/major 2nds, 3rds...Perfect 5th...etc... Then goes onto Chord identification and comparison. It works for me, although I have not gotten past Interval comparison. The more you play the easier it is to listen and hear the Intervals and compare them. Over time you will realize intervals all have a certain sound.

    Cheers! Go to a community college and you will be up and running in probably two semesters. I haven't done it because my (dis)abilities don't allow.

  12. #61
    Singing is cool. Everyone should sing a little. You can't play guitar in the shower or while driving as easily. :-)

  13. #62

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    Yeah. Listen to the pianists singing in the video Irez posted. It’s not ‘good singing’ - but it doesn’t matter. We can hear he knows what pitch he’s going for.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah. Listen to the pianists singing in the video Irez posted. It’s not ‘good singing’ - but it doesn’t matter. We can hear he knows what pitch he’s going for.

    Those old Jazz cats talks I get to be a fly on the wall this is a topic they get into. For them being able to sing, grunt, groan, what musical idea is a required skill. They will say with you talk music you don't use your instrument you sing ideas, examples, whatever to each other. It how Jazz musicians communicate.

    What Jean Michel Plic saying about fingering notes off the instrument when singing that is another skill you see. They hear a note/think a note and you can see their fingers in air move to fingering to play the note, it's automatic for them. Jimmy Heath talks about when in band with Coltrane, Coltrane would be practicing late at night and people would complain. Coltrane would put away his horn and continue practicing fingering the notes in the air. All developing the ear, brain, hand connection.

  15. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    .
    So that is the physical technical aspects of playing the guitar, that's one aspect you need to work on in an organized approach, that has a GOAL. Make a plan with checks points.
    Thanks, Reg. Re check points.... I've done a lot of the technical stuff you've laid out, the last year or so, and am really interested in getting into more of the "performance skills" aspects. I'd be interested in your take.

    The foundational major/minor stuff applies in a real concrete way to pure mechanical/technical work, but with melodic minor, I guess the starting point itself is basically around substitutions? anyway, I'm always interested in your philosophy on these things .

    So a couple of questions:

    1. What aspects of substitutions etc do you consider basic/technical/ mechanical as opposed to "performance skills"? (Either Diatonic or outside pitch collections... or both?....)

    2. Do you have some kind of systematic way that you physically/ mechanically worked through melodic minor positionally, in terms of substitutions etc.? I've been working on altered V7 type applications etc in different ways. Lately more of just playing with the melodic minor 6th string/2nd finger arpeggios, (7th or the 13th), for whatever position I happen to be in (relative to undertakings of target chords, then maybe from the actual root of the V etc. of course, certain mm 7th chords are too ambiguous anyway, but , I'm just trying to cover basics. My basic subs for altered V7 are the minMaj7, maj7#5, min7b5 (from the 7th of the would be V), and 7#11. I'd assume these are the main ones?

    For me personally, I mostly have together fingerings for the three minors with their corresponding arps (7th, 9th, 13ths). Harmonic minor is newer, but I can do out at basic level in all positions. The application aspect of that one is probably what I need more..."performance skills" etc?

    Need to actually do the work on the digital patterns etc., and I need to spend a good bit more time reading as well. Otherwise, I've been working pretty solidly toward the things which you've talked about over the years that are used to kind of ignore. Far beyond being mindnumbing, I've actually found the process quite enjoyable. I have a much more relaxed outlook toward coming years of pursuing the instrument and can also already see tremendous benefits anytime I dig into real musical aspects from tunes, or from ideas of other players/teachers etc. I have the rest of my life for the musical application parts, and it's a relief to be able to "get out of my own way", in terms of my own technical limitations and gaps in basic understanding re fretboard.

    So, thank you, and I'd value your insights into the above questions.

    Sorry to be long...

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    My basic subs for altered V7 are the minMaj7, maj7#5, min7b5 (from the 7th of the would be V), and 7#11. I'd assume these are the main ones?
    ...
    Question about the above ... those are all chords generated by the melodic minor scale ... I'm curious about exactly how you use them as "basic subs for altered V7".

    Is it like this ... for a Balt you will think about Cminman, Ebmaj#5, Am7b5 and F7#11. Is that correct?

    Mark Levine writes that all the melodic minor chords sub for each other because the scale has no avoid note. So, while comping, for example, you can play any one of them in place of any other. They all sound different but they all work.

    I've never thought about using the chord substitutions as a basis for finding notes during a solo. Is the strategy to have arps for all of them under your fingers and use them that way?

  17. #66

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    I've never thought about using the chord substitutions as a basis for finding notes during a solo. Is the strategy to have arps for all of them under your fingers and use them that way?
    If you hear melody as expression of harmony... you can use any harmonic tool as a source for melodic line

  18. #67

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    First lick here is simpe but very tasty example of melodic interpretation of harmonic tools... and hidden poluphonic voicing is beautiful


  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    First lick here is simpe but very tasty example of melodic interpretation of harmonic tools... and hidden poluphonic voicing is beautiful

    Those are great! Thanks for posting!

    I'm not sure how others would analyze the non-chord tones in the second lick.

    I'd start by thinking about comping. If this was a comping pattern, he'd be sliding the Gm7 down to F#m7 and back, twice, quickly. That would sound like a little bit of motion in the chords.

    Then, in anticipation of the Fmaj7, he slides into it from Emaj7.

    I don't think anyone would be surprised by that way of comping the basic changes. Side-slipping, approach notes, lower neighbor, whatever you want to call it.

    What is nice about this video is that he translates that sort of movement by using notes from the approach chords in his lines -- and, of course, he makes a nice melodic statement with them.

    What I especially like is that it isn't hard to see how to apply this in your own playing.

    Play on 2 beats on Gm7, 2 beats on F#m7 2 beats on C7, 2 beats Emaj7. Land on Fmaj7. That gets you in the ballpark.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    I physically and on paper put together an organized approach and adjusted as needed for gigs or as needed in general to get my playing act together. ( I did get my sight reading together also, which helped me get jazz gigs while I was still a kid).
    Reg, would it be possible to see an example of such a paper that you have put together for a gig?

  21. #70

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    I was a singer, or rather I am a singer. When I play, I am singing, if that makes sense.

  22. #71

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    Hey gersdal... how goes,
    Yea when I used to practice... I always had my standard material that I would work through. That is about 40 hours of basic practice material. So I would have it organized is sections...
    Example, Gmaj... scales, patterns using scales, chords or different voicings and different organizations of playing Gmaj, arpeggios etc...

    Details... play Gmaj scale in all 7 position. Same thing playing patterns using Gmaj. ex. Rt, 2, 3 / 2, 3, 4 / 3, 4, 5 / etc...
    Always two octaves in position and also moving between positions... finger independence

    All the arpeggios... triads, 7ths, 9ths etc...

    Chords, after I had all my basic root voicings from 6th, 5th and 4th strings... I worked on lead notes.
    Voicing patterns with chord tones on top, 1,3,5,7. Then extensions, 9, 11, 13 and chord patterns using different lead lines. Short chord grooves that implied Gmaj with different types of lead lines. (there is more).

    Anyway... the same approach with Gmin. etc...
    And always rhythmic studies

    Then the Gig influence would adjust to the styles of music at different Gigs. Different styles of music need different feels and licks etc... read through tunes in those styles.

    this is 50 years old...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  23. #72

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    Was checking out Destinytot's post about what to play using arpeggios...

    see A-7... play Cmaj7 or E-7 arpeggio
    see Amaj7.... play C#-7 etc....

    So the way I look and hear this approach..... is Functionally and extended Function relationships. As I always do, I have a Reference, and create Relationships to develop. In the example of See A-7 play Cmaj7....

    So Harmonically... chords are grouped into types of Function, Tonic, Subdominant and Dominant. Which basically means... how chords react with a Tonal reference. How much the chords want to move.... or not move in a tonal context.

    Key of Cmaj... Diatonic chords

    Tonic chords... Cmaj7, E-7, A-7 or Imaj7, III-7 and VI-7..... most at rest, want to move the least

    Subdominant... D-7, Fmaj7 or II-7 and IVmaj7 ..... in the middle, want to move , but can rest

    Dominant..... G7 , B-7b5 or V7 and VII-7b5 .... want to move the most

    This is the basic blueprint of Functional Harmony... eventually leading to Schoenberg's mess. (D.C. I dig the mess)

    So getting back to Destiny's example.... Using the technique of playing different chord arpeggios over a chord works because of functional relationships. In his examples... your basically using Diatonic and extended Diatonic relationships.

    The Diatonic relationship is using the other similar Function chords arpeggios over notated chord....see Cmaj7...play E-7 or A-7.

    Extending Diatonic Function is using the melodic relationships between the Diatonic chords application in a modal context.

    Ex.. Tonic Diatonic relationships result in... the chord up and down a Diatonic 3rd have the same Function, Cmaj7 up maj. 3rd to E-7 or down a Min. 3rd to A-7. ( which also has Relative relationship, the relative Min.).

    This same principle works with other functions and can be extended using modal guidelines and by extending the new chord to becoming part of a Chord Pattern. Adding the related V7 chord to a Min. chord.

    When you take the time to notate out or memorize the standard Extended Diatonic relationships.... you'll see and hear the most common choices use by different jazz players and in jazz tunes.

    Extending this same melodic principle to embellishment and ornamentation, passing tones, enclosures, approach... any embellishment also results in Harmonic relationships... different choices of ....See this chord and play these chord(s).

    You can do this the old school way... trial and error learn from being on gigs or take the time to actually try and understand what's going on . They both work, when I was a kid... I play 6 nights a week gigs... later composed and arranged music, had to actually understand what was or what could be going on harmonically.

  24. #73

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    Practicing and performing are two different things, like learning vocabulary and giving an extemporaneous speech. Think about the changes when you practice, but use your ears when you're performing and just play.

  25. #74

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    To preface, I am not, basically, a 'jazz' player and don't like most of it, especially long, drawn out improvisation that sounds like exercises out of an Arban book or something. It seems to me from reading a lot of these posts is that the main focus of jazz is academic - a lot of study and little playing - especially in front of an audience. I maintain that the 'old guys' going even back to the roots in dixieland didn't have a clue what they were playing - they just played what they felt. Fast forward to Charlie Christian who was not musically schooled in the least - he was copying horn players. Most of the 'classic' players that everyone admires (Herb,Joe, Kenny, Barney, Wes, etc.) were copying Charlie Christian. The songs of the big band era (standards, if you will) were the 'Wipeout'. 'Johnny B. Goode', 'House Of The Rising Sun' 'Stairway To Heaven' of their day and those guys played them until they were ingrained and they didn't even have to think about them. The problem comes with somebody who is more into analyzing than playing and spews a bunch of music 'babble' that nobody understands. They take a solo by some old guy from 1945 and spend 5 pages trying to explain what mode, arpeggio, scale the guy played when he didn't have a clue. And why do that? Who wants to play the same thing exactly like someone else did. Listen to a lot of records, learn licks and lines from them and then go forward - that's the way the old guys did - they wore out records and jammed - A LOT - they didn't study books, although I have heard of guitarists playing clarinet exercise books which could be helpful. It just gets to the point , that, when the academics get their hands on something, it generally goes off the tracks. Same thing happened to blues and is happening to rock. It's shameful - just get your nose out of the books and PLAY THE D*%^N GUITAR. It's not (and shouldn't be) rocket surgery - like Joe said " major, minor, dominant - that's all you need to know" (quoted loosely)

  26. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
    To preface, I am not, basically, a 'jazz' player and don't like most of it, especially long, drawn out improvisation that sounds like exercises out of an Arban book or something. It seems to me from reading a lot of these posts is that the main focus of jazz is academic - a lot of study and little playing - especially in front of an audience. I maintain that the 'old guys' going even back to the roots in dixieland didn't have a clue what they were playing - they just played what they felt. Fast forward to Charlie Christian who was not musically schooled in the least - he was copying horn players. Most of the 'classic' players that everyone admires (Herb,Joe, Kenny, Barney, Wes, etc.) were copying Charlie Christian. The songs of the big band era (standards, if you will) were the 'Wipeout'. 'Johnny B. Goode', 'House Of The Rising Sun' 'Stairway To Heaven' of their day and those guys played them until they were ingrained and they didn't even have to think about them. The problem comes with somebody who is more into analyzing than playing and spews a bunch of music 'babble' that nobody understands. They take a solo by some old guy from 1945 and spend 5 pages trying to explain what mode, arpeggio, scale the guy played when he didn't have a clue. And why do that? Who wants to play the same thing exactly like someone else did. Listen to a lot of records, learn licks and lines from them and then go forward - that's the way the old guys did - they wore out records and jammed - A LOT - they didn't study books, although I have heard of guitarists playing clarinet exercise books which could be helpful. It just gets to the point , that, when the academics get their hands on something, it generally goes off the tracks. Same thing happened to blues and is happening to rock. It's shameful - just get your nose out of the books and PLAY THE D*%^N GUITAR. It's not (and shouldn't be) rocket surgery - like Joe said " major, minor, dominant - that's all you need to know" (quoted loosely)
    Would love to hear examples of your playing to demonstrate. Would be really helpful for those of us still trying to learn.