The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #101

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    I think getting a teacher -- who is willing to tell you when you're off -- is important

    I would also suggest a combo class with a teacher -- so that you can practice your time issues in the proper context.

    Accurate time and good time feel are related, but they aren't the same thing. In jazz, you need both. I find that improving feel is more elusive than improving accuracy.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    One thing I find helpful and teach to students (to save you 25m of your life watching my vid) is to simply count the beat through everything you play.

    So, for 4/4 swing stuff, in 2/4 for fast and 4/4 for medium and slow.

  4. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Accurate time and good time feel are related, but they aren't the same thing. In jazz, you need both. I find that improving feel is more elusive than improving accuracy.
    Yeah. I think aiming at "accuracy" as its own arbitrary benchmark is the very very long way around. The feels, larger patterns, grooves etc. that Reg is talking about above are the "shortcut" in my opinion. Ironically, this is probably even MORE evident in simpler styles, forms, tunes, progressions etc. You can work on accuracy without regard to these larger elements, but it's somewhat like trying to keep your place singing with a band that doesn't give any cues or fills for sections.

    I still think that accuracy is more the RESULT of work on subdivisions, polyrhythms and patterns.... more than its being the product of working on the "accuracy" of arbitrary quarter notes or eighth notes etc.

    Problems with rushing quarter notes are immediately solved, even with very young children, by simply having them subdivide. These larger patterns are just simply another level of "subdivision".

  5. #104

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    Thank all for the great info. So the past couple of days I have had my iPhone metronome app set on 2+4 clicks pretty much all the time varying the tempo a bit as I walk/drive/bike/cook its cool how 2+4 fits so many activities . I think I am going after solid feel rather mathematical accuracy. I did find there are a couple of physical things that seem personally most natural while playing- ok don't laugh but - I find clicking my tongue against the roof of my mouth or nodding my head or moving one shoulder or some other way of being the metronome far easier while playing guitar than tapping my foot - for some reason tapping my foot confuses me)) go figure.

    As for playing I am working a couple of songs I have been struggling with. New thing is it seems that there is far more time for the chord changes/voicings all of a sudden . I didn't realize how much space there is between beats and if I relax I have plenty of time ( pun) to execute the chords/voicings by trying to work with the space in between beats and letting the time just flow rather than try and wrestle it to the ground. Hope that makes sense it certainly feels like something useful is happening.

    Reg - your comment about developing internal pulse - you said " that internal Pulse is developed from performing accent patterns, that repeat. Grooves that repeat and lock" Could you point me at an example of that idea I could explore?

    thanks all
    Will

  6. #105

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    Hey Will... sure

    Here is a basic 8 bar phrase. The tempo is around 180, so the feel is in two.
    So the basic groove is just dotted quarter eight half note rest down beat on 1 and + of 2 (The 1st bar of example)

    You could have any type of feel... swing, latin ... use something your comfortable with. Think of the 8 bar phrase as into to a tune like "It Could Happen To You" etc...

    Part of learning to feel a pulse is to be aware of whether an attack is related to the beat before... or the beat after. For example in the example the 1st two bars are both about beats 1 and 3... ... (the entire is about 1 and 3... ) anyway the example will help you develop skill of how to play on and off an implied pattern.

    Once you internalize the 8 bar phrase.... it becomes a groove which repeats... you can then...begin to create new rhythmic, melodic and harmonic relationships with the basic rhythmic pattern.

    This works because... the pattern or groove become internalized, an internal pulse which doesn't require counting, no 1 and 3 or 2 and 4 etc... your feeling an eight bar phrase.

    By developing relationships...I mean, you can create different chord patterns that work with the basic I VI II V. You can use melodic lead lines, melodic groove lines that also work with the basic reference, and of course you can add different rhythmic patterns that also work the the basic pattern.

    Once the feel is established.... as long as you don't trash the feel, your free to interact with it, the groove. By trashing, I mean the feel is still implied.

    I'll try and post examples in the next day or so.
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    Last edited by Reg; 10-27-2017 at 10:52 AM.

  7. #106

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    You could also use a phrase from Belson to do this as well right?

  8. #107

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    Hey Christian... Yes exactly. The point really isn't what you use... it's the learning process. Although, some may work better than others, but in the end... one will know them all etc...

    And the ability to learn to recognize and be aware of rhythmic patterns, both micro and macro

  9. #108
    Yeah. I have a kid who plays banjo and have really become aware of how basic these kind of things are, far short of taking on anything as complex as jazz. Young banjo players who don't know what the word "polyrhythm" means are pretty adept at reworking melody and harmony simultaneously in pretty complex ways rhythmically, were you to analyze it the way we analyze melodic rhythms in jazz etc. Really just the unintentional consequence of the specific tuning of the banjo, and the fact that you're playing something on every subdivision by default. Pianists and fingerstyle guitarists do the same thing. Rhythmically complex melodies which are simply the default result of an overall harmonic/melodic rhythm in both hands teach you these things without really even over thinking.

    Again, we can pretty easily do the same things, whether with pick or fingers in the guitar in any style. Subdivision and working some basic patterns are hugely important and are pretty simple to execute in this way. We certainly shouldn't be behind banjo players etc. Doesn't help that the least common denominator is very often triplets (or double time triplets) in jazz I guess. Slightly blurs what the actual issue is for many people, but we have to learn to subdivide. At the macro level, we've got to learn to play and hear patterns; stop living moment to moment arbitrarily.

  10. #109

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    Thank you so much Reg - I'll dig into that example and the concept. Being able to establish an over arching reference and then using that platform to create or imply new relationships seems like a very powerful way to approach playing.

    Will