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  1. #31
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    Naw! Jazz is for fat old white dudes. Anyone else is just dabbling. Next time anyone mentions Pasquale Grasso be sure to call him "junior", "sonny", or "that wimpy four-eyed foreign kid".


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  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    More comments to further the confusion.




    Very interesting.
    I got a fake book in the late 70's. Most of it was handwritten and it looked like it had been thrown in a wet gutter. I threw it away.
    This was a good rundown of the history of fake books. So that's who Steve Swallow is.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Hey, if y'all think she was serious, that's fine, rip her.

    But the "soccer mom" sexist bullshit is fucking weak, and if you think it's OK to pull shit like that, then I don't know. Because thats everything wrong with this bullshit sexist boys club.

    And people wonder why there aren't more female members here...sheesh, gimme a break. Why the hell would they ever want to be a part of this?
    well, that's exactly the image she is selling. she also seems happy to show off her kids to the whole world on youtube. anything for clicks, right? her main concern seems to be looking cute and flirting with the camera while she delivers her yogi-bearisms.

    you find soccermom more offensive than her made-up story of dumb charlie boy going to a jam only knowing one song? eff that.

  4. #34
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    "Strike a pose.."

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Hey, if y'all think she was serious, that's fine, rip her.

    But the "soccer mom" sexist bullshit is fucking weak, and if you think it's OK to pull shit like that, then I don't know. Because thats everything wrong with this bullshit sexist boys club.


    And people wonder why there aren't more female members here...sheesh, gimme a break. Why the hell would they ever want to be a part of this?
    Powerfully stated.

    I've no wish to play public foil to a former moderator in these populist times, but so be it.

    I call the tenor of your response counter-productive - at best - to the intentions you claim.

    I reduce the whole to an unbecoming (suspiciously adolescent) pose - except for this part:
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    then I don't know.
    The latter would make a placard I could admire, unlike the one you proudly - because you've done so publicly - display.

    As for the use of the offending phrase, I wouldn't be able to come up with the term 'soccer mom' on my own. Although I did appreciate the (superior) language skills of the person who had written it, I wouldn't have repeated it at all had it not been for your own sarcastic intervention - which went straight to the heart of the periphery.

    In case it isn't clear, I'm not apologising for that humorous epithet - and neither am I trivialising anyone's plight.

    I'd apologise to Aimée if she felt personally hurt - but not if she felt hurt for unspecified individuals, or for a group:


    Because what counts is intention - and when I consider the operative phrase in the sentence that incurred (triggered?) your wrath, ie. "making stuff up", I find those implications more troubling than whether individuals (la Aimée included) are big enough (if not ugly enough) to handle having their feelings jarred by correction.

    My own operative word was 'sacred' - with a question mark, inferring accountability. Because the following question is the important one:
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Hey, if y'all think she was serious...
    Last edited by destinytot; 08-11-2017 at 09:36 AM. Reason: typos, clarity and addition of Alison Portchnik
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Naw! Jazz is for fat old white dudes. Anyone else is just dabbling. Next time anyone mentions Pasquale Grasso be sure to call him "junior", "sonny", or "that wimpy four-eyed foreign kid".


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    As I'm fond of saying, what wins my eternal admiration is not just his astonishing playing or that he won a competition; it's that he immediately sold the prize.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    yogi-bearisms.
    Superb.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  7. #37
    Carry on, fellas. See yall in a bit, I need a break.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Of what use is a dream, if not a blueprint for courageous action?"

    --Adam West, as Batman, 1966.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Carry on, fellas. See yall in a bit, I need a break.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  9. #39
    Kinda funny how this thread devolved after that video. Obviously some nerves were hit by the admittedly 'perky' assertion that music should really be learned by heart. There is a real difference between knowing a piece of music by heart and improvising along with it vs. being able to read it and mentally know which patterns of notes will work with the changes. Even if that knowledge is advanced they are not the same thing. Only a person can do the first, a computer can be programmed to do the second. It's an ancient argument, and not worth diving into again, but there is a reason why are they called "fake books". That name was created by musicians.

  10. #40

    the big dumb-down

    anyone who thinks this is anything but total shite needs to either start or stop listening to jazz music. she can't even hit the minor third of funny valentine for crying out loud.



    which would *not* be worth mentioning if if it weren't for the fact that she's putting all those vids up "teaching" scat singing, even selling lessons and what not.

    i mean have people really forgotten how jazz used to sound? but i guess that's 2017 for ya. the big dumb-down continues. carry on.


  11. #41
    ...okay...

  12. #42
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    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  13. #43
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    I've played unknown songs with others out of a fake book that sounded better than some guys that threw their fake books away....

    In 2017 don't throw your fake book away too soon....if jazz is your religion, fine, but there aren't enough churches left to worship in, so don't shame others into kneeling at your altar....

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    anyone who thinks this is anything but total shite needs to either start or stop listening to jazz music. she can't even hit the minor third of funny valentine for crying out loud.



    which would *not* be worth mentioning if if it weren't for the fact that she's putting all those vids up "teaching" scat singing, even selling lessons and what not.

    i mean have people really forgotten how jazz used to sound? but i guess that's 2017 for ya. the big dumb-down continues. carry on.

    One of Mr B's points was re. anonymous internet commenters talking crap about people who can actually PLAY. Maybe I've missed your previous playing examples, but it's almost to the point now where I wouldn't care if you played like Wes. This is B.S.

    Re the soccer mom post , I'd call it sexist. I hate the tone in so many of these conversations. One of the most agreeable forums on the internet, but I wouldn't be proud for my daughter to be a participant here much of the time.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-10-2017 at 10:35 PM.

  15. #45
    For what it's worth, nolte's videos have gotten a lot of play on this forum in recent months. A lot of respect and appreciation for what she's doing. No one HAS to like ANYTHING. There's plenty of stuff to ignore, but enough already on just trashing her. Maybe talk the ideas she's discussing instead of her. It marginalises the point you WOULD be making otherwise. Maybe post about something you actually LIKE?

    Is this the spin off to the "judging other musicians" thread?
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-10-2017 at 10:37 PM.

  16. #46
    There's a lot of people that want to teach via the internet and a lot of competition. I can't imagine what it's like to grow up with cyber-space where there's little accountability.
    Keep it light.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    For what it's worth, nolte's videos have gotten a lot of play on this forum in recent months. A lot of respect and appreciation for what she's doing. No one HAS to like ANYTHING. There's plenty of stuff to ignore, but enough already on just trashing her. Maybe talk the ideas she's discussing instead of her. It marginalises the point you WOULD be making otherwise. Maybe post about something you actually LIKE?

    Is this the spin off to the "judging other musicians" thread?
    I like her. I enjoy the videos of her singing and playing to the point where I'll pay to see her live at the first opportunity, and I may have posted some of her videos (on transcribing and on keyboard skills for non-pianists).

    But it's been implied that her use of 'woodshedding' may not have been serious, and I'm curious to know what others think. I've listened again to the relevant section, between 3m40s and 3m46s, and I rather think she was.

    Regarding language, the visuals are what make "soccer mom" funny for me - striped shirt and driving an SUV. Need it be said that those things don't define her?

    On the other hand, "yogi-bearisms" seems more scathing - and possibly more pertinent, pointing as it does to the question of whether she is contributing to "dumbing down".

    But both those metaphors appear mild to me, compared to the language with which they were met. To me, the latter has the familiar ring of ideological possession.

    Speaking as a parent (of a trilingual daughter), ideological possession troubles me more than vulgarity.
    Last edited by destinytot; 08-11-2017 at 06:04 AM. Reason: spelling
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol View Post
    There's a lot of people that want to teach via the internet and a lot of competition. I can't imagine what it's like to grow up with cyber-space where there's little accountability.
    Keep it light.
    I think you sum up both the problem and the solution (which is a tall order).

    The Dude is the man for our times - he may not be the most articulate, but he's got heart.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    One of Mr B's points was re. anonymous internet commenters talking crap about people who can actually PLAY. Maybe I've missed your previous playing examples, but it's almost to the point now where I wouldn't care if you played like Wes. This is B.S.

    Re the soccer mom post , I'd call it sexist. I hate the tone in so many of these conversations. One of the most agreeable forums on the internet, but I wouldn't be proud for my daughter to be a participant here much of the time.

    edit: never mind, life is too short
    Last edited by djg; 08-11-2017 at 07:58 AM.

  20. #50
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    If the shoe fits...

    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    edit: never mind, life is too short
    That's where I disagree.

    Because I think there's truth to what you've written.

    Never mind what's been called 'ripping' and 'trashing' (which, admittedly, I think is rude as well as funny - and also big and clever).

    Your key points have yet to be addressed adequately - and haven't been refuted at all.

    I think 'judging other musicians' and the 'tone of the conversation' are red herrings (though perhaps not 'affective tone'). Surely the reader's comfort with the subject matter is not determined by gender alone?

    What I see here is coercion.

    No-one likes '-isms' or enjoys being called '-ist' (unless they work for Google), do they? Who - or what - is pulling the strings?

    This thriving 'industry' diversifies through strategic alliances:
    Can you please guide me to resources on how to use a Fake Book.-booker-t-washington-quotes-2-jpg

    EDIT I identify as what Russell Hoban called a 'self-winding toy' - lyrics by Gene Lees:
    Last edited by destinytot; 08-11-2017 at 10:06 AM.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  21. #51
    I'm not a hair-trigger political correctness guy, but I think there's some context on this forum re. a history of marginalizing females. If anyone is new and unaware, there it is.

    Regardless of touchiness surrounding "-isms", name-calling marginalizes the OBJECT of the comment as well as the one offering it. As to Nolte's STYLE of communication or the accuracy of her COMMENTS, I'd call those fair game. If someone wants to call "sexism" on THAT conversation, I'd say that's P.C., thought-policing b.s.

    But I'm sure everyone can fully appreciate and understand the distinction of talking about what someone is saying versus calling names. Would the question be clearer if the vlogger had been black or Hispanic? How about: "Jamall doesn't know what he's talking about " or "José doesn't know what he's talking about" (assuming those aren't their actual names). Kind of different examples maybe. Not apples to apples, and I'll except that imperfection. I'm certainly not accusing anyone here of THAT level of insensitivity, but what labels or names WOULD be acceptable other than what's required, and are they at all helpful?

    I think there's a distinction to be made between talking about her speaking STYLE or the "soccer mom ethos" she puts forward, versus calling her a"soccer mom" while saying that she doesn't know what she's talking about.

    I'd say speak to the CONVERSATION instead of making it personal. Speak to ideas, without regard to the other partie's person. If it's a valid conversation, don't marginalize it by getting people off on another aspect. it also avoids what could be seen as ideological differences etc. If you're talking about the CONVERSATION, it works regardless. I think there's a distinction to be made between calling a COMMENT potentially sexist vs calling a person a sexist. In the same way there's a distinction between name-calling and speaking to the conversation/idea/topic.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-11-2017 at 10:15 AM.

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I think there's a distinction to be made between talking about her speaking STYLE or the "soccer mom ethos" she puts forward, versus calling her a"soccer mom" while saying that she doesn't know what she's talking about.
    Her wearing a hooped shirt and driving an SUV tends to prejudice my perception, but the latter seems the closer of the two - though it's still wide of what was actually said/written (further meaning being added or inferred).

    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I'd say speak to the CONVERSATION instead of making it personal. Speak to ideas, without regard to the other partie's person.
    I think that's sound advice.

    To reiterate, it's been implied that her use of 'woodshedding' may not have been serious, and I'm curious to know what others think. I've listened again to the relevant section, between 3m40s and 3m46s, and I rather think she was.
    Last edited by destinytot; 08-11-2017 at 01:09 PM. Reason: Add bold
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  23. #53
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    Other stereotypes exist:
    Can you please guide me to resources on how to use a Fake Book.-1502463042666-442413828-jpg
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    But I'm sure everyone can fully appreciate and understand the distinction of talking about what someone is saying versus calling names. Would the question be clearer if the vlogger had been black or Hispanic? How about: "Jamall doesn't know what he's talking about " or "José doesn't know what he's talking about" (assuming those aren't their actual names). Kind of different examples maybe. Not apples to apples, and I'll except that imperfection. I'm certainly not accusing anyone here of THAT level of insensitivity, but what labels or names WOULD be acceptable other than what's required, and are they at all helpful?
    I'm not sure I agree - unless the names in the (imaginary) example are being used with genuine malevolence.

    As you point out, the vlogger's ethnicity falls outside your examples - though, as Mr Waller put it, and as I'm very fond of saying, "One never knows, do one?"

    Otherwise, although I don't think the names in the example are exotic enough to be effective, I think reciprocal back-and-forth and testing of boundaries can be a catalyst for lasting friendship and cooperation.

    I remember how the late Patrick2 won me over with a curt "I hope you ain't talking about my momma". On the other hand, when fumblefingers enjoined me to "man up", I wanted to leave.

    No need for extremes - or for blanket rules - except "Play nice." (And, perhaps, "If you're not competent to join the game, sit down and watch.")
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    I couldn't resist (i was an 80's teen) - How NOT to use a Real Book:
    Ha! Love the title - but I couldn't catch your usual reharm for the sound of all that hair...

    Shows to go you:
    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    I think reciprocal back-and-forth and testing of boundaries can be a catalyst for lasting friendship and cooperation.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    I've played unknown songs with others out of a fake book that sounded better than some guys that threw their fake books away....

    In 2017 don't throw your fake book away too soon....if jazz is your religion, fine, but there aren't enough churches left to worship in, so don't shame others into kneeling at your altar....
    Good point.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    I couldn't resist (i was an 80's teen) - How NOT to use a Real Book:

    The trap style hat-rolls at 1:24.
    OMG....

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    i was an 80's teen
    Happy memories of the movie Thank God It's Friday (with The Commodores - 'Too Hot to Trot,' etc) from the decade before, but I still like this '80s hit of theirs:
    Last edited by destinytot; 08-13-2017 at 04:00 AM.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  29. #59
    Hi everyone:

    Thanks for the replies and the lively discussion. I just wanted to check in so you know that I've read all the comments. Here is what I decided and some may not like it but please understand I am still learning.

    The question I am asking comes after reading Ted Gioia's The History of Jazz, I highly recommend this book. Now, I am new to Jazz but from Gioia's perspective Jazz = Improvisation. (for the most part but not exclusively). So, from my amateur understanding the first original Standard written is the skeleton and the Jazz artist in playing it over consecutive nights plays it differently every time, improvising the Standard. So, to Gioia every time a Jazz musician plays a Standard he or she plays it differently. This is where the Fake Book comes in, in my humble opinion.

    Not to make this long winded, but I look at the Fake Book as the ultimate Skeleton or Outline delineating the bare minimum to keep the song true to the sentiment of the original standard. But, but, but from my understanding (after reading comments here) the Fake Book has some problems. Things like dependence, accuracy, and all else.

    Here is what I have decided. I have a book of Chord Melody arrangements of Standards called All Time Jazz Standards. What I have decided is to play through this book (like I have) as accurately as possible according to the sentiment of the arranger. But in doing so add my own elements and tinge (I have been doing this). So, these kind of arrangements and song books are essentially very basic, intermediate levels of Fake Books for me. Keep in mind I use the term Fake Book loosely in this case. But, really, it's an arrangement or interpretation of the author, it's not completely accurate to the original recording but it allows for improvisation.

    Finally, what I plan on doing is going to the original recording and learning it by ear. (I honestly think that is the only way the original recording can be learned.) Now, if you look at my past comments I do talk quite a bit about using Ear Master 6 to improve my ears and I do use it most days for thirty minutes. I hope to have proficient ears in five years.

    Now, is this best way to approach things? Probably not, but it is the best I can do for now until I learn more.

    Finally, I want to chime in about women in music. I feel I have to write this and you have every reason not to believe me. But one day you will understand, maybe not in the case of Jazz and Blues but in the case of Classical and Rock women were at the heart of it. What I mean is a lot of songs were written by women and attributed to men. I know for a fact one day you will understand this.

    Thanks again, I really loved the comments. I'm going to buy Approaching the Standards at a future date so thank you for the recommendation.

  30. #60
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    Then there's Wendy Carlos - superb recording/engineering of João Gilberto's (my favourite) 'white' album.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

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