The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    I don't want to be a dick - but don't confuse the major 6th diminished scale with the bebop scale. Same notes, different uses.

    Might seem pedantic but it seems to lead to a lot of confusion. The bebop scale is purely a melodic device while maj6-dim generates harmony.

    Also the bebop scale is just a specific case of general added note rules for scale use. (It's not incidentally a term that Barry likes... but whatever...)

    This does lead to a side issue that interests me though - the scale aren't really the thing.... it's how you use them...
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-19-2017 at 06:45 AM.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I don't want to be a dick - but don't confuse the major 6th diminished scale with the bebop scale. Same notes, different uses.

    Might seem pedantic but it seems to lead to a lot of confusion. The bebop scale is purely a melodic device while maj6-dim generates harmony.

    Also the bebop scale is just a specific case of general added note rules for scale use. (It's not incidentally a term that Barry likes... but whatever...)

    This does lead to a side issue that interests me though - the scale aren't really the thing.... it's how you use them...
    Well aware of all that. Just offered the alternative names for those that may be familiar with either term.

  4. #28

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    I seem to telling everyone off at the moment for some reason. :-)

    I still stand by the fact that using maj6-dim in that context is a bit redundant. There's an awful lot of confusion about that particular scale and its usage, arrays teaching in general, and to be honest I kind of frown on its use outside Barry's specific teaching approach.... it adds nothing...

    It's a bit like referring to the G harmonic minor as Maqam nahawand or something. Same notes differently used. Maqams are purely melodic, harmonic minor is ummm ..... harmonic.

    Anyway as I say it's a separate and in some ways more interesting topic of conversation- what scales are and how they are used.

  5. #29

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    You're British, it's in your charter to tell people off :-)

    To be honest, I added the alternative term as a way of piquing people's interest to the different ways a scale could be used which is, as you say, a more interesting conversation. At any rate, to avoid the risk of confusion (and to prevent you from bursting a few blood vessels), I've edited the post.

  6. #30

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    @jordanklemons, I just wanted to say that I've been practicing your triad + 1 just a tiny bit modified and it is really opening my ears. I have been adding one note to the Maj6 arpeggiated chord (2nd, 4th, #5, 7th). I don't know why it didn't occur to me to just use one of these "borrowed" notes and explore that before exploring more, but your system is really helping me.

    Thanks!

  7. #31
    Jordanklemons, thanks for the practice routine! I spent about an hour playing with the triad + 1 this evening and it is very interesting. Seems like it will lead nicely to the less is more approach, something I like.


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  8. #32
    Christianm77, I would be interested in hearing what you almost said about the right use of scales, maybe if you would be interested in starting a new thread on it?


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  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    You're British, it's in your charter to tell people off :-)

    To be honest, I added the alternative term as a way of piquing people's interest to the different ways a scale could be used which is, as you say, a more interesting conversation. At any rate, to avoid the risk of confusion (and to prevent you from bursting a few blood vessels), I've edited the post.
    Well don't worry I get told off by people who are more Barry Harris than me.

    But as I realise more and more the BH thing is so different and has its own set of terminology to such a degree that trying to import elements into other understandings leaves people really confused.

    As a teacher or someone attempting to communicate approaches and ideas this leaves me in a dilemma. I'd rather players know the mainstream terminology but the BH terms are very specific and thought through.

    In my own life I just practice the stuff and play it and it's not really a problem.

  10. #34

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    As always lots of great advice...

    There is technical skills practice and then there is performance practice. If your goal is to become a skilled player with musicianship... you need to get your technical skill together.

    When you don't... and you basically just combine everything and practice what you like or feel like... your going to develop lousy habits and technical skills which will be reflected in your performance.

    You need solid references.... The guitar is a 12 fret repeating pattern, its not a 1 or 2 pattern instrument. Your goal is for the fretboard to become one pattern that repeats, a 12 fret pattern. Most of the guys who give advice have already put in the time to develop their technical skills.... they can already play anything anywhere on the fretboard.

    Personally I like PMB's approach... when you work on one Reference.... say "G", but choose one harmonic reference, Gmaj.

    So practice two octave scales of Gmaj starting on each degree, (each note of the Gmaj scale) starting on the low E string up the neck.
    That is 7 notes, so 7 starting points of the basic G maj scale. Then the pattern repeats.

    The next step is to do the same thing with arpeggios, I used to.... all starting on low E string and two octaves in position.
    1) Play the scale Gmaj... up the neck starting on each scale degree
    2) Play the complete arpeggio of Gmaj... two octaves starting on each degree up the neck. (7 starting notes)
    3) Play Triad arpeggio..Gmaj...two octaves up the neck starting on each chord tone. (there are only 3 starting notes)
    4) Play the 7th chord arpeggio, Gmaj7...two octaves up the neck starting on each chord tone. (now 4 starting notes)
    5) Play the 9th chord arpeggio...Gmaj9 again as above

    So this would be the 1st exercise... Next do the same process with all basic Harmonic references,
    1)Major/minor harmonic references... each mode starting on each scale degree of the major scale. (Gmaj is 1st degree of 7 )
    Gmaj Ionian
    Gmin Dorian
    Gmin Phrygian
    Gmaj Lydian
    G dom. Mixolydian
    Gmin Aeolian
    Gmin Locrian

    Then same process with Melodic Minor and Harmonic Min. and Harmonic Maj...(there are Symmetric scales etc... skip for now)

    A note.... Harmonic Min. is generally a relationship from relative minor of Maj...or Aeolian, Example...Key of Gmaj, relative Min. is Emin.
    Aeolian. So Harmonic Min. is a relationship from that Emin.

    Melodic min is generally easier to relate to Dorian... a different reference for developing relationships.

    It's always better to go through the process of organizing and notating out this practice approach.... helps internalize concepts. But I have probably posted PDf's of all the above info. or can re-post if your interested.
    Last edited by Reg; 08-21-2017 at 10:41 AM.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon
    This is how I teach my students how to practice scales in the first bit of their studies, and expand upon this as they progress

    I really want to practice this. Do you have a tab or a place where I can find the music? I also want to learn the notes as I learn the scales.

  12. #36

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    I want to add one other thought.

    A scale is usually defined as a group of notes (7 is most common, but there are 8s and 6s too) in a certain order, e.g. C D E F etc.

    I would suggest leaving out the "certain order" part of the definition. If you practice them in order, you'll end up playing them in order during a solo, at least at times and maybe often.

    I would suggest thinking of a scale as a pool of notes with no ordering.

    Then, when you practice that "pool" use them melodically. You may be able to find them by knowing the geometry of the scale or by knowing the names and locations of the notes in the pool.

    This way, you'll end up knowing pools and melodies, which I think will be more useful than specific sequences of notes.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I want to add one other thought.

    A scale is usually defined as a group of notes (7 is most common, but there are 8s and 6s too) in a certain order, e.g. C D E F etc.

    I would suggest leaving out the "certain order" part of the definition. If you practice them in order, you'll end up playing them in order during a solo, at least at times and maybe often.

    I would suggest thinking of a scale as a pool of notes with no ordering.

    Then, when you practice that "pool" use them melodically. You may be able to find them by knowing the geometry of the scale or by knowing the names and locations of the notes in the pool.

    This way, you'll end up knowing pools and melodies, which I think will be more useful than specific sequences of notes.
    This is the modern approach to chord scales. Bebop lines are not structured this way.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    This is the modern approach to chord scales. Bebop lines are not structured this way.
    I don't think I've ever understood this. I am aware that bebop scales contain an extra note. I have read that this is so that the meter comes out even, but that has never made sense to me. Does it suggest that people are using the entire scale, in order, in a solo?

    I can't understand why it would be advantageous, to an aspiring bebop player, to practice the notes in order.

    Can anyone explain it? I would like to know. Thanks.

  15. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I don't think I've ever understood this. I am aware that bebop scales contain an extra note. I have read that this is so that the meter comes out even, but that has never made sense to me. Does it suggest that people are using the entire scale, in order, in a solo?

    I can't understand why it would be advantageous, to an aspiring bebop player, to practice the notes in order.

    Can anyone explain it? I would like to know. Thanks.
    I can't speak for Christian, and I'm sure that he will eventually chime in himself, but I think he's trying to say that bebop lines aren't built around "pools of notes" in the way you described earlier, but are instead constructed using the chord tones and extensions that fit the chord.

  16. #40
    He always describes more random intervalic patterns as being more modern and not in style of traditional bebop.

  17. #41

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    I'll give you an absolute real world example. Notice (even if you can't read music) how the notes move up and down in an orderly fashion and in predictable patterns.
    How to practice scales?-img-2978-1-jpg
    (BTW - that should read G# B A G F E from beat 2... Forgot the natural sign and that G# looks a bit like an F#.... Anyway....)

    This is what I would describe as 'bebop language' - many of these melodic tropes are lifted from Western classical music, of course. The rhythmic aspect and organisation of the phrases is what tends to make it sound like jazz, not Handel - take for instance the last two notes on the 1 and the 1+ - 'bebop'.

    Of course there are some jazz harmonic practices - take the use of the tritone sub in the penultimate bar, but also observe the way it is quite simply a descending triad.

    One thing you don't see in this line BTW - any use of 'upper extensions'. And yet it is still very much a jazz line.

    There are all sorts of considerations regarding the use of scales in this music - for instance we have the added notes to that C7 scale in the first bar and a half... There's an interplay between scale use, rhythm and harmony which is not covered by 'just jumble up the notes' - because not all the notes in a C7 scale are considered equal.

    Now, 'jumbled up' modal playing is a different thing completely. I also use this approach BTW. All scale tones that are part of the extended structure of a chord and are not 'avoid notes' are basically equal.

    There a big middle ground - Jazz moved more towards this in the '60s and 70s.

    So I'm not saying it's useless or bad, just trying to be specific about things. You can't do it and expect perfectly spun bebop lines to emerge... But this might not be what you want.

    Which brings us back to the central question - whose playing do you like?

    Go and check them out, and get back to me :-)
    Last edited by christianm77; 09-05-2017 at 08:12 AM.

  18. #42

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    Christian, Thanks for taking the time to explain this, including the written example.

    The initial line adds a Db and Eb (the altered 9ths) to a C13 run (there are different ways to describe it, including "mostly chromatic" for a while) and his meter comes out even. So, this is, then, bebop language with the scales and arps being played, mostly, in one direction or the other.

    And it can be contrasted with lines that jump around more (e.g. the head to Tame Thy Pen).

    So, assuming that I now understand it, I'd still recommend to a student, if I were still teaching, that they avoid practicing scales in order and, instead, practice them as pools of notes with which to create melody. That would include occasionally running a scale in order. The advantage, as I see it, is that you won't end up with a tendency to let your fingers mindlessly run scales (don't ask me why I'd suggest avoiding this <g>).

    As far as who I like, I think I'm pretty typical for a guitarist of a certain age. Jim Hall and Wes on guitar. For all other instruments, I might pick Stan Getz as a favorite improviser. His lines on the original bossa recordings still strike me as astonishingly great. He probably ran arps in order a lot, but not scales so much.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Christian, Thanks for taking the time to explain this, including the written example.

    The initial line adds a Db and Eb (the altered 9ths) to a C13 run (there are different ways to describe it, including "mostly chromatic" for a while) and his meter comes out even. So, this is, then, bebop language with the scales and arps being played, mostly, in one direction or the other.
    Indeed. I was hoping you'd pick up on that.

    Although he starts the phrase with a quarter note. If we started with two eights instead he'd have to have added three chromatic notes - put another between c and b flat, for instance, for it to work out

    These are the sorts of added note rules Barry Harris students practice.

    According to Barry it's not actually important what these notes are, in fact. They could be ghost notes, diatonic notes a step lower than the next, or open strings. They are not acting harmonically as #9 or b9. They are just rhythmic filler.

    And it can be contrasted with lines that jump around more (e.g. the head to Tame Thy Pen).

    So, assuming that I now understand it, I'd still recommend to a student, if I were still teaching, that they avoid practicing scales in order and, instead, practice them as pools of notes with which to create melody. That would include occasionally running a scale in order. The advantage, as I see it, is that you won't end up with a tendency to let your fingers mindlessly run scales (don't ask me why I'd suggest avoiding this <g>).

    As far as who I like, I think I'm pretty typical for a guitarist of a certain age. Jim Hall and Wes on guitar. For all other instruments, I might pick Stan Getz as a favorite improviser. His lines on the original bossa recordings still strike me as astonishingly great. He probably ran arps in order a lot, but not scales so much.
    Well that's another thing again