Root note to name chord

[LeGrand]

I have been playing a few chords together for many years (40?). Originally they were part of a song I learned, but have no recollection of the names of several of these 3 note chords. This progression of chords I primarily use as an initial warm up exercise, it sounds good to my ears and I get to use arpeggio as the bridge section.

Question; how do I identify which of the 3 notes is the root note to then begin to name the chord?

the chords are as follows:
G11B10e9
G9B8e7
G7B7e5
G6B7e5
G4B3e3
G3B3e3 (Gm7) ?
G2B3e2 (D)
G2B2e2 (F#m7) ?
E0A2D2G0B0e0 (Em)
E0A0D2G2B2e0 (A)

I play these with a sparkly beat repeating the first 2 then transitioning down the fretboard till I end on the A chord before repeating the sequence. Third time through is an arpeggio of the 3 string chords with a fourth time through being a return to the sparkly strum pattern and finishing on a "jazz" type finish strum pattern on chord 1. (but I digress)...

Of the chord G11B10e9, which note is the root note and why? I believe that G11 = F#, B10 = A, and e9 = C#. So in a chord comprised of notes F#, A and C#, which is the root and how would I know that?

Thank you - Daniel

[jordanklemons]

Hi Daniel...

Looks like you're using/finding triads which is a great thing to explore and warm up with... and they always sound beautiful.

The two you're struggling to name are just G minor and F# minor... no 7s in there. Just the basic triad.

In order you're playing

F#min
Emin
DMaj
F#min
GMaj
Gmin
DMaj
F#min

Followed by the two open chords.

As for knowing what the root note is, the easiest way to explain how to know that stuff is to study some basic music theory knowledge (specifically regarding the construction of triads). Once you understand them on a basic level, then you can apply them to the fretboard. You'll find that there are really only a small handful of shapes to memorize, and then they all repeat. It eventually gets to the point where you don't even need to think about the root notes anymore... you just see a shape and you'll immediately know what it is.

For me, this is essentially the most ground level, foundational knowledge. It's my personal starting point for everything... scales, arpeggios, chords (basic and advanced), melodic playing, improv, arranging, etc.
It's definitely worth some time and attention as I've found it to be a key that will unlock just about any door in the castle.

[LeGrand]

..

[LeGrand]

Hi Daniel...

Looks like you're using/finding triads which is a great thing to explore and warm up with... and they always sound beautiful.

As for knowing what the root note is, the easiest way to explain how to know that stuff is to study some basic music theory knowledge (specifically regarding the construction of triads). Once you understand them on a basic level, then you can apply them to the fretboard.

For me, this is essentially the most ground level, foundational knowledge. It's my personal starting point for everything... scales, arpeggios, chords (basic and advanced), melodic playing, improv, arranging, etc.
It's definitely worth some time and attention as I've found it to be a key that will unlock just about any door in the castle.

Just thinking in text...

1. A triad is a Root, 3rd and a 5th (b3rd = minor).
2. "the root note in a triad is the lowest note..." regardless of its position - as in an inversion or a 2nd inversion.
3. A "C" chord is C,F,G regardless if it is F,C,G or G,F,C - it is still a "C" chord.

A triad of F#, A, C# = F#m ????? to me the lowest note would be A, then C# then F#. But that can't be right, as an "A" root would have as its 3rd a "D", not a C#. And a "A" root would have an "E" as its 5th. So the "lowest" note does not refer to its linear position from A-G but rather ??????

Ok - now to go define "lowest note".

Thanks.


...seems I can take any triad, name the notes, then see which notes fit the formula of Root, 3rd and 5th. The note that fits the 1st position is the root and thus the name of the chord's base. A b3rd would make it a minor chord/triad.

Thanks again.

[jordanklemons]

Just thinking in text...

1. A triad is a Root, 3rd and a 5th (b3rd = minor).
2. "the root note in a triad is the lowest note..." regardless of its position - as in an inversion or a 2nd inversion.
3. A "C" chord is C,F,G regardless if it is F,C,G or G,F,C - it is still a "C" chord.

A triad of F#, A, C# = F#m ????? to me the lowest note would be A, then C# then F#. But that can't be right, as an "A" root would have as its 3rd a "D", not a C#. And a "A" root would have an "E" as its 5th. So the "lowest" note does not refer to its linear position from A-G but rather ??????

Ok - now to go define "lowest note".

Thanks.


...seems I can take any triad, name the notes, then see which notes fit the formula of Root, 3rd and 5th. The note that fits the 1st position is the root and thus the name of the chord's base. A b3rd would make it a minor chord/triad.

Thanks again.

Great questions, man. You're definitely on the right track, just a touch off course.

There's a difference between a "root" note and a "bass" note. No matter the inversion of a triad, the root note will always remain the root note. The bass note is equivalent to saying "the lowest note" in that particular voicing. THAT is what changes.

Now, as for your triad spelling, it needs a bit of work. Hence why I mentioned you may want to study some very light music theory based around triad construction.

THE QUICK SUMMED UP VERSION
If we think about the musical alphabet (A, B, C, D, E, F, G)... we can find out triad notes by simply starting on the "root" note, and skipping every other.

ACE (A minor)
BDF (B diminished)
CEG (C major)
DFA (D minor)

etc

This doesn't take into account sharps and flats. So a C major chord wouldn't be CFG, it would be CEG. That triad could be inverted to

CEG
EGC
GCE

There are also other ways to twist it around, but let's leave it at that for now.

ALL of those are still C major triads. They're inverted, and the "bass" note (or lowest note in the voicing) will be different, but they're all C major.

If you play an F# minor triad with the A in the lowest voice (A-C#-F#) it's still an F# minor triad.

[jordanklemons]

And yes, a b3rd or minor 3rd would yield a minor triad... usually... there are other things that can happen to the 5th that would change that (diminished triads)... but mostly, yes, you're right.

[pauln]

Naming a triad means little without harmonic context.

A C# E may be A major and C# E A may be A major 1st inversion, but if the latter occurs over B it may be B11sus2, with a C and A# underneath it may be C13b9, over D it may be Dmaj7sus2, and over F, F#, or G it may be Faugmaj7, F#m7, or G6sus2b5 (or A7 3rd inversion).

If you consider trichords, which are triads free of the "every other note" restriction, one is going to find lots of rootless upper structures that are the same groups of pitches, but they have different functional roles depending on the harmonic context. One needs to know how to hear these "same things" as sounding differently for those different functional contexts.

[jordanklemons]

Naming a triad means little without harmonic context.

A C# E may be A major and C# E A may be A major 1st inversion, but if the latter occurs over B it may be B11sus2, with a C and A# underneath it may be C13b9, over D it may be Dmaj7sus2, and over F, F#, or G it may be Faugmaj7, F#m7, or G6sus2b5 (or A7 3rd inversion).

If you consider trichords, which are triads free of the "every other note" restriction, one is going to find lots of rootless upper structures that are the same groups of pitches, but they have different functional roles depending on the harmonic context. One needs to know how to hear these "same things" as sounding differently for those different functional contexts.

I don't disagree with any of this more advanced application stuff... and anyone who knows me knows that I'll write about and talk about this stuff for hours on end... I just taught a near 2 hour Skype lesson today that primarily revolved around just 1 or 2 of these upper structure applications... I love the stuff...

But within the context of someone who's still not yet sure how to identify the root note of a triad that's played standalone... both in theory and in identifying it by its shape on the fretboard... and who's using them with no harmonic context anyways as they're simply being played as a quick warmup.... seems like you may be jumping the gun into some advanced stuff a little prematurely.

Not that I disagree with any of it... but we have to be able to stand before we can walk, and we have to be able to walk before we can run... and you're talking about how to take part in a triple out nickel split play in the middle of the Super Bowl.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I don't disagree with any of this more advanced application stuff... and anyone who knows me knows that I'll write about and talk about this stuff for hours on end... I just taught a near 2 hour Skype lesson today that primarily revolved around just 1 or 2 of these upper structure applications... I love the stuff...

But within the context of someone who's still not yet sure how to identify the root note of a triad that's played standalone... both in theory and in identifying it by its shape on the fretboard... and who's using them with no harmonic context anyways as they're simply being played as a quick warmup.... seems like you may be jumping the gun into some advanced stuff a little prematurely.

Not that I disagree with any of it... but we have to be able to stand before we can walk, and we have to be able to walk before we can run... and you're talking about how to take part in a triple out nickel split play in the middle of the Super Bowl.

Funny how there almost seems to be an inverse relationship between players' practical knowledge/skill and our "need" to theoretically justify things. Better players often shrug and politely roll their eyes, while the rest of us fret over such things.

Anyway there's the implied harmony vs subs/outside sounds which help IMPLY it. Trying to justify "what you can play over X".... by naming it in TERMS of X .... is often way too much vertical thinking and may go far far beyond what the real player is thinking about. Beyond that, even the big dog theoreticians will default to things like slash chord naming or polychords when things get too far beyond sensible. The music isn't necessarily beholden to the naming conventions (which it may outgrow anyway).

By the way, for the obsessive types who occasionally "need" theoretical justification, Bert Ligon's "Jazz Theory Resources" is a great balance against the more vertically-centered approaches of Levin and co.

[LeGrand]

Great questions, man. You're definitely on the right track, just a touch off course.

There's a difference between a "root" note and a "bass" note. No matter the inversion of a triad, the root note will always remain the root note. The bass note is equivalent to saying "the lowest note" in that particular voicing. THAT is what changes.

Now, as for your triad spelling, it needs a bit of work. Hence why I mentioned you may want to study some very light music theory based around triad construction.

If you play an F# minor triad with the A in the lowest voice (A-C#-F#) it's still an F# minor triad.

Truly appreciate the insight Jordan...

1. Please forgive my lack of precise use of music vernacular. When I wrote "base note" I meant foundational note upon which the chord was named not "bass note". The phrase "lowest note" came from a basic theory section and I simply quoted it. I believe it was in reference to "triad stacking" or sheet music with the three triad notes written one above the other and the Lowest or Bottom note was the foundation note upon which the triad chord was named.
2. Although I know a few guitar players who also play bass, I am not one of them and except for knowing that a 4 string bass tunes to E A D G an octave lower than a guitar, and other than playing a few bass lines like the intro to Ben E Kings "Stand by Me" or Burl Ives "Ghost Riders on the Storm", my use of bass notes is basically non-existent. My use of the word "base" meant foundational as in the base upon which you build something. Like naming a triad chord.
3. My apologies for messing up the "F" versus "E" note in the "C" triad. I was attempting to use the formula Root W W H W W W (H/R) and for some reason used the 4th instead of the 3rd. No idea why, except my mind was concluding different than my intent. I actually can count to seven , but somehow got mixed up between the 3rd and 4th when naming the 3rd.

Really happy I found this site. And many thanks to you for your time and knowledge. I will continue to work on understanding basic theory. The Root Whole Whole half Whole Whole Whole half, along with knowing there are 12 notes (A A#/Bb B C C#/Db D D#/Eb E F F#/Gb G G#/Ab) seems to be the base or foundation of understand theory. I suspect many more questions to follow...

Daniel

[LeGrand]

THE QUICK SUMMED UP VERSION
If we think about the musical alphabet (A, B, C, D, E, F, G)... we can find out triad notes by simply starting on the "root" note, and skipping every other.

So if I understand this concept...

is it A#, Whole Whole, Half Whole = A#, D, E = A# chord w/ root of A#?
E, G#, B = Em with a root of E
A, C#, E = Am with a root of A
G, B, D = G with a root of G

Yes????

[DanOwens]

So if I understand this concept...

is it A#, Whole Whole, Half Whole = A#, D, E = A# chord w/ root of A#?
E, G#, B = Em with a root of E
....

You're pretty close, it's just worth remembering the order of sharps and flats. Your first chord would be Bb, D and F.

I'm a bass player mostly but when I first started playing guitar I really got into voicing triads on the top three strings. If you'll indulge me:

Triads are three note chords that consist of the root, the third (a major or minor third which dictates whether it is a major or minor chord) and the 5th.

There are three basic inversions of a triad you get by moving the bottom note to the top: Root inversion (135), First inversion (351), Second inversion (513). This is true for major and minor since they both have three notes.

The triad of E minor is EGB. The top three strings of the guitar are tuned GBE. This means the top three strings of the guitar are the first inversion of an E minor triad. This makes sense since we strum the top three strings open when we strum an E minor open chord.

There are 6 chords to learn in this basic system: Major root inversion, Major 1st inversion, Major 2nd inversion, Minor root inversion, Minor 1st inversion and Minor 2nd inversion.

By learning those 6 chords you open the guitar up beyond the open chord grips and provide a grounding that is invaluable when it comes to learning jazz guitar and having a basis of theoretical knowledge.

You can figure out the 6 chords using many different ways but my advice is to figure them out and learn them inside-out. It is a low-investment, high-return exercise.

[DanOwens]

See here for a graphical representation: Triad Inversion

[matt.guitarteacher]

You're pretty close, it's just worth remembering the order of sharps and flats. Your first chord would be Bb, D and F.

I'm a bass player mostly but when I first started playing guitar I really got into voicing triads on the top three strings. If you'll indulge me:

Triads are three note chords that consist of the root, the third (a major or minor third which dictates whether it is a major or minor chord) and the 5th.

There are three basic inversions of a triad you get by moving the bottom note to the top: Root inversion (135), First inversion (351), Second inversion (513). This is true for major and minor since they both have three notes.

The triad of E minor is EGB. The top three strings of the guitar are tuned GBE. This means the top three strings of the guitar are the first inversion of an E minor triad. This makes sense since we strum the top three strings open when we strum an E minor open chord.

There are 6 chords to learn in this basic system: Major root inversion, Major 1st inversion, Major 2nd inversion, Minor root inversion, Minor 1st inversion and Minor 2nd inversion.

By learning those 6 chords you open the guitar up beyond the open chord grips and provide a grounding that is invaluable when it comes to learning jazz guitar and having a basis of theoretical knowledge.

You can figure out the 6 chords using many different ways but my advice is to figure them out and learn them inside-out. It is a low-investment, high-return exercise.

I agree on the value of learning triads. Some basic chord melody ( even non-jazz style) is a great fun way to learn these.

To learn triads for basic diatonic major/natural minor, go ahead and add the diminished triad as well. That covers the the vii triad, but more importantly, it covers three-note voicings for your V7 chord as well.

[LeGrand]

You're pretty close, it's just worth remembering the order of sharps and flats. Your first chord would be Bb, D and F.

Triads are three note chords that consist of the root, the third (a major or minor third which dictates whether it is a major or minor chord) and the 5th.

The triad of E minor is EGB. The top three strings of the guitar are tuned GBE. This means the top three strings of the guitar are the first inversion of an E minor triad. This makes sense since we strum the top three strings open when we strum an E minor open chord..

Soooooo.....

After 2 days of confusion on an Em triad chord not having a flat note as its 3rd , I think I have it figured out. Above I posted an Em triad as an E A#/Bb B, yet your post had an Em as an E G B. Where is the b note? Ahhhh... the flated noted (or half step down from an A#) = G. Further confirmed when I make an open Em chord there is no A#. The A# makes it an E. SOOOO. the formula Root Whole Whole half Whole Whole Whole (Half/root) doesn't mean a flat note in the third position, it means taking the 3rd position note back a half step. If I were to write that for me it would be a Minor triad is a Root + 1.5 + 2.5 or Root Whole half half whole whole. I then trust that a 7th would be similar on the 5 position - meaning a half step down and a minor 7th is equivalent to a Root + 1.5 + 2 or Root, 3 minus.5, 5 minus.5?

I definately misunderstood the formula, thinking that anytime a 3rd or 5th fell on a #/b then that note made it a minor etc. NOPE! it is the action of moving backward on the 3rd or 5th a half step that makes it a minor/7th etc.

Cool!

[matt.guitarteacher]

Soooooo.....

After 2 days of confusion on an Em triad chord not having a flat note as its 3rd , I think I have it figured out. Above I posted an Em triad as an E A#/Bb B, yet your post had an Em as an E G B. Where is the b note? Ahhhh... the flated noted (or half step down from an A#) = G. Further confirmed when I make an open Em chord there is no A#. The A# makes it an E. SOOOO. the formula Root Whole Whole half Whole Whole Whole (Half/root) doesn't mean a flat note in the third position, it means taking the 3rd position note back a half step. If I were to write that for me it would be a Minor triad is a Root + 1.5 + 2.5 or Root Whole half half whole whole. I then trust that a 7th would be similar on the 5 position - meaning a half step down and a minor 7th is equivalent to a Root + 1.5 + 2 or Root, 3 minus.5, 5 minus.5?

I definately misunderstood the formula, thinking that anytime a 3rd or 5th fell on a #/b then that note made it a minor etc. NOPE! it is the action of moving backward on the 3rd or 5th a half step that makes it a minor/7th etc.

Cool!

Still mixing up a lot of terminology though. What is your source for learning basic theory?

[LeGrand]

Still mixing up a lot of terminology though. What is your source for learning basic theory?

I know my terminology is not accurate. Hopefully I explain my point enough with context that those reading can decipher my meaning.

Regarding my source for "Theory"...
Officially it entailed about 6 months of weekly lessons (specifically theory) that occurred about 3 years ago. A local player/teacher who taught out of a music store North of Detroit. Well regarded within the business and certainly a talented guitarist. To my knowledge - his only occupation. My gig schedule at the time and currently, interfered with continuing the lessons and after that I simply had my notes consisting of music notes 1-12 (A A#/Bb B C C#/Db D D#/Eb E F F#/Gb G G#/Ab), formula of Root W W h W W W h/R, G Major scales, Am Pentatonic scales, Triad of Root, 3rd, 5th = a chord and we were just beginning to start on inversions etc as these notations are in my notes.

The last 3 years have been an occasional review/reference of my notes, what little you-tube searching peaked my interest and then finally here - The Jazz Guitar Forum. I likely would have never found this place - except for a recent guitar purchase which was WAAYYY beyond my budget (used), but simply "spoke to me" when I played it. After the purchase, I felt like it was my "Duty" to know more about theory since I now owned a "Jazz" guitar.

My original post in this thread was to simply understand how to name some triads I had played for many years. That led to the above replies and my misunderstanding/confusion over b3rd's meaning. I thought it meant a 3rd that contained a b note where in reality it meant moving down a half step from that 3rd (or 5th). Truly I have learned more basic theory in the last week than I did in 6 months of lessons.

My reason for being here is to attempt to understand more about music, in the hopes it will allow me to join other people when I do not know their songs. I play solo and have since early childhood, with an occasional percussion player joining me, but the music (chords/lead) is only me. Which means, I know how to play my songs, the way I play my songs, in the keys I play my songs in. But I cannot join in a "jam" and play with other people unless we are playing my songs the way I play them.

I realize that at my age, I have lost decades of opportunity and training - but I have decided to give it a go and learn what I can.

Thanks for all the help thus far.

Daniel

[matt.guitarteacher]

Cool. E G# B is E major.

Check out theory lessons on this site: Jazz Guitar Chord Theory - How To Construct Jazz Chords?

[LeGrand]

Cool.

Check out theory lessons on this site: Jazz Guitar Chord Theory - How To Construct Jazz Chords?

Thanks - perusing this link made me smile. I play many of those chords and in fact just learned a Bm7b5 for the song Sunny. It will take me several days/weeks to grasp all that is there. Good place to start. Thanks again.