Overview of pick styles?

[CharliePhillips]

I've been a reasonably advanced fingerstyle player (not just jazz) for 30 years, but have recently started suffering from arthritis in my right hand, and consequently can't finger pick any more. I can hold a plectrum though, so there is still a lot of music making ahead of me

But the plectrum/pick technique is alien to me, and there seem to be different ways of holding the pick, approaching the string, rest-stroke or free-stroke, etc, etc. Can someone with a good pick technique give me some guidance before I pick up bad habits?

Charlie

[henry b]

I,m sure pick technique is as personal as your individual style of playing.what works for you will not work for all etc..

[Val]

I suppose you could put the pick styles in four main categories.

1. Strict Alternate Picking
2. Gypsy Picking: Always downstroke when changing strings. Hand never touching the top of the guitar.
3. Strict economy picking: Never crossing strings.
4. Combinations of all three.

With all four of those styles in existence, being used by top international players, I don't see how one could really claim to be developing bad habits anyway.
But most of those guitar technique books such as the Sal Salvador books advise players to really get together their alternate picking first.
So don't take my word for it, I am really just recently working hard on my alternate picking after just doing what comes naturally for years. And playing fingerstyle for a long time. I wouldn't say I have a good technique.
But maybe that helped.

[Jarred]

You can try this one my jazz teacher started me off with, fold your index finger and hold a 3mm "big stubby" plectrum/pick with the thumb to where the pointy end of the pick just barely sticks out past the first most knuckle from the nail, hold as comfortably to you as you need it, it's good for speed and strumming can be done with it sticking out more and more loose.
it may be uncomfortable at first until you get used to it.
practice alternate picking and string skipping...
(fist can be clenched but you can use your finger/s as a brace if open)
hope it's helpfull-let me know.

cheerz

[derek]

Originally Posted by Val

2. Gypsy Picking: Always downstroke when changing strings. Hand never touching the top of the guitar.

Jimmy Rosenberg reguarly makes contact with the top. I guess this supports what Henry B says, in that there are as many approaches as there are people.

[Herb German]

Hi Charlie, there are some opinions and hints by Tuck Andress: Tuck & Patti: Pick & Fingerstyle Techniques hope that helps regards Herb

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Another technique (but perhaps not for Charlie, with his arthritis) is hybrid picking: add some finger picking with m and a while still holding onto the pick with p and i. I didn't even know this had a name when I started doing it to play wide intervals.

[Drumbler]

So Gypsy Jazz uses economy picking?

Is this because Django did it that way?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

What is this called? Which do you do?

Suppose you have triplets (for simplicity, on the same string). Do you play:

UVU - UVU - UVU - UVU (down strokes on the beat, technique called ???)
or
UVU - VUV- UVU - VUV (strictly alternate)

Me? I don't think about it! But if I had to, I would say that if I wanted to ACCENT the triplets I would do the former, but if I wanted it to be smooth (say a tremolo) I would do the latter.

[derek]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

So Gypsy Jazz uses economy picking?

Is this because Django did it that way?

GJ guys definitely use economy picking. Frankly, anyone who doesn't is limiting themselves imo.

[Val]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

So Gypsy Jazz uses economy picking?

Is this because Django did it that way?

It is maybe older than Django. People tend to play middle eastern plectum instruments (oud, etc.) with a similar technique. Maybe it is an ancient Indian aesthetic.
If Jimmy Rosenberg makes contact with the top, I am not going to argue with that. I think the original idea with trying not to touch the top is to allow for more volume. Now things are amplified anyway.
But I will say that the hero worship inherent in Jazz Manouche keeps most of them from using the pinky of their fret hand, except Angelo Debarre and maybe a few others.
Maybe strict is the wrong way to describe it, just traditional.

[P_Jay]

Mr Phillips wasn’t asking for a series of personal opinions about which great player plays in what way or what style belongs to what genre. Once again a jazz forum debate wanders off the point. The question posed to experienced players is how do you hold a pick and then move it. My twenty baht's worth as follows:

Holding a pick is personal. But apart from the idiosyncratic positions, eg. holding it the ‘wrong way round’ or using two fingers and a thumb, players generally pinch the pick lightly between thumb and index finger, using the side of their index finger. The pinch is often located between the thumb joint and thumb tip and between the last joint and index finger tip. However that’s just a start. It depends a lot on how flexible these joints are. You have to experiment. Practice doing rest strokes with a relaxed wrist and that should also help you to find the sweet spot on the pick to apply pinch pressure. Keeping your wrist relaxed and practicing slow will allow your muscle memory to develop efficiently.

Good luck and I hope the arthritis doesn’t inhibit your ability to produce tunes!

[Val]

Originally Posted by P_Jay

Mr Phillips wasn’t asking for a series of personal opinions about which great player plays in what way or what style belongs to what genre. Once again a jazz forum debate wanders off the point. The question posed to experienced players is how do you hold a pick and then move it. My twenty baht's worth as follows:

Holding a pick is personal. But apart from the idiosyncratic positions, eg. holding it the ‘wrong way round’ or using two fingers and a thumb, players generally pinch the pick lightly between thumb and index finger, using the side of their index finger. The pinch is often located between the thumb joint and thumb tip and between the last joint and index finger tip. However that’s just a start. It depends a lot on how flexible these joints are. You have to experiment. Practice doing rest strokes with a relaxed wrist and that should also help you to find the sweet spot on the pick to apply pinch pressure. Keeping your wrist relaxed and practicing slow will allow your muscle memory to develop efficiently.

Good luck and I hope the arthritis doesn’t inhibit your ability to produce tunes!

Sorry about getting off topic. It was called "Overview of Pick Styles?".

[CharliePhillips]

Thanks to everyone above. I've been given a few things to think about. One thing I've noticed is how much more I like the sound of the rounded edge of the plectrum, not the pointy bit. I get a much warmer sound, especially when I play across the string at an angle (left to right when looking down at my hand). Does anyone else do this?

My natural way of playing is polyphonically, well at least bass, middle and treble, which stems from my fingerstyle playing. I'm trying to do the same with a plectrum, obviously with limited success, but it works to a degree which gives me hope that I don't have to abandon my whole way of 'seeing' music. But I've certainly made a few steps backwards of late, and almost feel like a beginner again - actually quite an enjoyable experience.

Charlie

[larry graves]

After a lifetime of alternative picking, I decided, after watching Russel
Malone playing with tremendous speed useing nothing but downstrokes, that this was the way to go. It's hard at first, but worth
the effort, my playing improved dramatically.I still use up-downstrokes
when playing fast passages,but now I always start and finish every
attack on downstrokes.
Barney Kessel used downstrokes,so did Wes,albeit with his thum. I play
both thum and pick.LG..

[davidblair]

Sorry about the arthritis. I fight mine by opening my hand against a rubber band.

Flatpicking is an important topic in the mandolin world. The goal is to master every imaginable pattern of up or down strokes while alternating strings, time signatures, tempo, combining scales, arpeggios, interval patterns, chord shapes, building fluidity.
I go for a closed fist and loose wrist.

[hugojkd]

I posted these links on another thread, but they're worth posting again:

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...html#post66055

All The Aspects Of Picking. Part 2 | Lessons @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com

The author talks how useful practicing upstrokes is. According to Part 1, shred god Paul Gilbert practiced only upstrokes his 1st 2 years playing. Practicing upstrokes & alt picking starting with upstrokes on each string is something thing I never would've thought about.

Those links have a bunch of tough exercises that are worth looking into. I was thinking about buying a book on sweep/economy picking but the articles give you so much to work with it'd be a waste of $$$.

Hope it helps,

Hugo

[peterja]

Originally Posted by derek

Jimmy Rosenberg reguarly makes contact with the top. I guess this supports what Henry B says, in that there are as many approaches as there are people.

From what I´ve seen, Jimmy only makes little contact, he doesn´t really support the picking hand on the top, and that´s the point.
Gypsy picking is all about the reststroke, and it´s impossible to get the right attack if you´re wrist isn´t free.
Jimmy is known to be a very traditionel gypsy picker.

And Charlie, if you´re used to fingerpick with reststroke, maybe the gyspy reststroke could ease the transition for you. But it can be pretty hard on the wrist.

[NJJax]

With arthritis, gripping a normal pick may be uncomfortable. You might try a thicker pick, like a Jim Dunlop Big Stubby or Tri Stubby. Because they are thicker, these picks don't require you to close your hand as far.

[larry graves]

I've started using my thumb exclusively--thrown my picks away, never
looked back, try it..

[RunningBeagle]

Originally Posted by derek

GJ guys definitely use economy picking. Frankly, anyone who doesn't is limiting themselves imo.

They use downstrokes when switching strings. Sometimes this equals economy picking, sometimes not, but the result is a unique articulation. But I've never studied the techique.

[markerhodes]

Joe Pass always changed strings with a downstroke, no matter which direction he was going. At the same time, he said (-see "Joe Pass Guitar Method") that other players might find something more suitable. I'm focusing on economy picking now and it works better than anything else I've tried.

[doruondun]

I started guitar first with classical music (conservatory) and I used to play with my fingers all the time... Even I finished conservatory I was still using my fingers on my electric guitar. But when I started jazz after 9 years I decided to use a pick. And yes it feels wierd at the beginning, but after few weeks I' owned it...

Advice: Use up-down pick strokes first, and when you feel comfy try to use sweep picking technique. Jimmy Brunos' "No Sense Jazz Guitar" video teaches it very well...

[TommyD]

I've found that the way we're told to hold the pick, ie, first finger bent on itself, pick tight between thumb and first finger, rest of hand either folded under or finger tips on pick guard, takes fine hand and finger movements out of the equation, and results in larger-than-necessary wrist and forearm movements instead of hand and finger movements. I find that rather (ahem!) heavy-handed, and not at all flexible. So I hold my pick between thumb and forefinger with forefinger almost vertical (perpendicular to the strings), thumb where it wants to lie, and pinky and maybe ring finger on the pick guard. This way I can pick single strings with a simple finger movement, or with more hand in it if necessary. My rule is, if it doesn't feel comfortable enough to forget, don't do it.
A friend I know decided to take a lesson or two from Tal Farlow, so he made his way down to Sea Bright with his guitar, all excited, and ready to come away with some of Tal's great chording under his belt. When he told me about the lesson, he was cursing, something he never does. He said that they spent the entire hour with Tal showing him how to hold the pick. and he never got to play a note, or hear Tal play!

Tommy/

[12ax7el34]

decide what thickness you prefer in a pick, also texture. I think Dunlop are best. Move smoothly between downstroke, upstroke.

Originally Posted by CharliePhillips

I've been a reasonably advanced fingerstyle player (not just jazz) for 30 years, but have recently started suffering from arthritis in my right hand, and consequently can't finger pick any more. I can hold a plectrum though, so there is still a lot of music making ahead of me

But the plectrum/pick technique is alien to me, and there seem to be different ways of holding the pick, approaching the string, rest-stroke or free-stroke, etc, etc. Can someone with a good pick technique give me some guidance before I pick up bad habits?

Charlie

[Flat5]

" Barney Kessel used downstrokes,so did Wes,albeit with his thum. I play
both thum and pick.LG.."


George Benson contends that Wes Montgomery played both downstrokes and upstrokes utilizing the "corn" that he had on his thumb.

[larry graves]

I think you're right when you quote GB. Wes did use up strokes,but only when he played either rhythm or single notes,not both, I dont know which
though. Does anyone out there know? I do know Joe Pass cut his picks in half and
used the pointed half. Wes contradicts at least two discussions on this
forum i.e--no pick--no theory. Nuff said. I feel that, when playing with
the thumb, you get more response than you do from a piece of plastic.
[ The spirit lives through the nerves in your thumb,or was it brush?-same thing]...

[Turtl3]

I would say maybe finger pick for comping and use a pick to solo.

[Scrybe]

Originally Posted by TommyD

I've found that the way we're told to hold the pick, ie, first finger bent on itself, pick tight between thumb and first finger, rest of hand either folded under or finger tips on pick guard, takes fine hand and finger movements out of the equation, and results in larger-than-necessary wrist and forearm movements instead of hand and finger movements. I find that rather (ahem!) heavy-handed, and not at all flexible. So I hold my pick between thumb and forefinger with forefinger almost vertical (perpendicular to the strings), thumb where it wants to lie, and pinky and maybe ring finger on the pick guard. This way I can pick single strings with a simple finger movement, or with more hand in it if necessary. My rule is, if it doesn't feel comfortable enough to forget, don't do it.
A friend I know decided to take a lesson or two from Tal Farlow, so he made his way down to Sea Bright with his guitar, all excited, and ready to come away with some of Tal's great chording under his belt. When he told me about the lesson, he was cursing, something he never does. He said that they spent the entire hour with Tal showing him how to hold the pick. and he never got to play a note, or hear Tal play!

Tommy/

That's what Ive just switched to doing! Glad I'm not the only one who finds this better, tho I play with my hand not anchored at all. This is how I'd hold the pick when strumming, and always had some trouble because I basically had this grip for strumming, then the "standard" grip for soloing. It's a bit of a pain to relearn now, but I'm finding the more I build it as a habit, the better everything feels and sounds.