The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Yea... the fingerings are a process for the neck to becoming one big fingering.

    The head can easily played in 10th position or 8th... I'm going with your version in Bb. Right the head is between the 5th and up an octave to another 5th and one 6th, or F on the staff up to G above the staff.

    So basically between F and G above the staff... so at some point you would need to play that G on 1st string at 15th fret.... or take it down an octave...

    As a general rule... if your playing typical standard, Like the Rogers and Hart Show tune TCBL the melodies usually are within an octave and a half... and the melodies are usually old school harmony etc... So I usually think triad and open position chords... that's how a lot of diatonic melodies are put together... so the big notes are roots and 5th etc... Bb triad with root 5 or 5th string. You know that open position "C" cowboy chord that has the low and high 5th in same position. Slide up to 10th position, It's a bar chord, just using "C"... Caged etc... Caged fingerings work great, I use them all the time, they do have holes, but they also have a sound etc...

    So technically I would be using the fingering based on root 6th string patterns beginning on the 4th degree.
    Bbmaj starting on the 4th degree, (Eb) 2nd finger 11th fret... 10th position.

    I don't go through this process... it's instinctive... or I could play the melody all on the 1st string... pretty stupid... but could be done without... again without thinking.

    As pointed out above... your after the best sound that works for what your playing. I generally never play melodies on lower strings. ( except for effect), I'll use the 4th string or "D" string down to 4th or 5th fret...F# or G. And generally any note above that high G on 1st string 15th fret becomes too thin.

    For This Can't be Love... I usually play octaves... and for octaves I'm usually transposing 8vb, down an octave, because I usually sight read from the lower note... I can go lower or upper note of octave...depending on if part is transposed for guitar...

    I somewhat have to disagree... fumble fingers... personally the fingerings best results are having your neck becoming one big fingering.... The fingerings are just a physical organization that makes the entire fretboard become usable without having to figure out where you are... Somewhat like in the tune above, Bbmaj becomes one big fingering, one grid. I can perform anywhere I want in any style etc... the sight reading thing is also obvious, how else are you going to sight read with out watching your neck etc...

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    The head can easily played in 10th position or 8th... I'm going with your version in Bb. Right the head is between the 5th and up an octave to another 5th and one 6th, or F on the staff up to G above the staff.

    So basically between F and G above the staff... so at some point you would need to play that G on 1st string at 15th fret.... or take it down an octave...

    As a general rule... if your playing typical standard, Like the Rogers and Hart Show tune TCBL the melodies usually are within an octave and a half... and the melodies are usually old school harmony etc... So I usually think triad and open position chords... that's how a lot of diatonic melodies are put together... so the big notes are roots and 5th etc... Bb triad with root 5 or 5th string. You know that open position "C" cowboy chord that has the low and high 5th in same position. Slide up to 10th position, It's a bar chord, just using "C"... Caged etc... Caged fingerings work great, I use them all the time, they do have holes, but they also have a sound etc...

    So technically I would be using the fingering based on root 6th string patterns beginning on the 4th degree.
    Bbmaj starting on the 4th degree, (Eb) 2nd finger 11th fret... 10th position.
    Yeah, Herb Ellis calls that "shape 3". I think of it as "D". I know what you mean. Thanks.

    I now get what you mean about seeing the neck as one big grid, or one shape (at a time). Don't know I was so slow to grasp this. (Okay, maybe I do know why but I hate to say, "I'm slow!")
    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 01-23-2016 at 10:59 AM.

  4. #53

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    I think Johnny Smith was on to something when he came up with fingerings that taught shifting principals. Every guitar speaks a little differently, so how you finger a scale (yikes) should account for the different levels of decay for each part of the neck. When I play, I want every note to sound full. Some notes just don't speak as well on my guitar. As always, I connect the fingering to the phrase (especially the beginning) that I want to play. That's another reason why I like shifting, I setup my hand and fingers so that I can grab a line without stretching all the time.

    Different strokes for different folks. Works for me, worked for Johnny Smith, worked for Segovia. I like it.

  5. #54

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    Reg, I have another question. This is about another situation---dominant cycles. In this case, a ii- V7b9 line that takes two measures and is run through the cycle. David Baker calls it a 'perpetual motion' exercise.

    First: all intervals are given in relation to the V7b9 chord. So we start with a measure of G- then a measure of C7b9:
    It goes like this (-all 8th notes): 3 b3 2 b2 R 7 b7 6 (---chromatic descent from 3rd to the 6th; that's the first measure: G-)
    Then: 5 4 3 5 b7 b9 R b7 (C7b9)

    All together now: 3 b3 2 b2 R 7 b7 6 5 4 3 5 b7 b9 R b7.

    Baker writes this out for all keys in his "How to Play Bebop". (He varies the last four intervals but that need not concern us here.) It calls for several fingerings---the number is determined by how much moving around you want (or don't want) to do. ;o) I found a way to do this.

    But Reg, how would you think of this in relation to the fingerings you gave us?

    First, I'm thinking of everything here in relation to the V7b9 chord. In doing this, Richie Zellon's fingerings come in handy. But if there is a simpler, just-as-effective way, well, I'm all for that too!

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Reg, I have another question. This is about another situation---dominant cycles. In this case, a ii- V7b9 line that takes two measures and is run through the cycle. David Baker calls it a 'perpetual motion' exercise.

    First: all intervals are given in relation to the V7b9 chord. So we start with a measure of G- then a measure of C7b9:
    It goes like this (-all 8th notes): 3 b3 2 b2 R 7 b7 6 (---chromatic descent from 3rd to the 6th; that's the first measure: G-)
    Then: 5 4 3 5 b7 b9 R b7 (C7b9)

    All together now: 3 b3 2 b2 R 7 b7 6 5 4 3 5 b7 b9 R b7.

    Baker writes this out for all keys in his "How to Play Bebop". (He varies the last four intervals but that need not concern us here.) It calls for several fingerings---the number is determined by how much moving around you want (or don't want) to do. ;o) I found a way to do this.

    But Reg, how would you think of this in relation to the fingerings you gave us?

    First, I'm thinking of everything here in relation to the V7b9 chord. In doing this, Richie Zellon's fingerings come in handy. But if there is a simpler, just-as-effective way, well, I'm all for that too!


    A couple things, no need to forget everything you already learned in caged positions, instead locate those patterns inside the seven positions.

    Second, the idea is to "play through the positions". Shifting from one position to the next in every way you can imagine. You might want to try connecting positions using your caged shapes.

    Lastly there are only a few finger patterns possible, this pertains to your fingering question...

    index middle pinky (frets 346)
    ind ring pin. (Frets 356)
    what I call big, index skip a fret, middle skip fret, pinky, (frets 357)

    Now, your chromatic passing tones can only fall in those blank spaces. The only one that has an option is the big fingering, 357imp..... 3457imrp....3567imrp

    finally, if you want all 5 chromatics in a row, ascending would be 1234slide4, descending, 4321slide1


    Thats it, all your chromatic fingerings fall into those 6 fingerings. Have fun!!!

  7. #56

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    Hey Mark... a little hard to understand question....

    but 7th position, standard mixolydian root 6th fingering for "C"... works for both G-7 and C7b9

    .............E Eb D Db ... C B Bb A ... / ...G F E G ... Bb Db C Bb...
    3rd st....
    finger.....3 2 1................................................. .....s1
    4th st............. s4.......4 3 2 1...........................2........4..2
    5th string..........................................4 2 1 4

    Now if I jump up an octave... stay there, 7th position and play the C-7 to F7b9
    ...............A Ab G Gb... F E Eb D ...C Bb A C ... Eb Gb F Eb...
    2nd st......4 3 ..2..1............................................ .1
    3rd..............................4 3 2 1 ......................2........4..4
    4th............................................... 4 2 1 4

    then down whole step to 5th position ..F-7 to Bb7b9 and Bb-7 to Eb7b9 etc...



    If your up an octave with start... in 9th position...
    .............E Eb D Db ... C B Bb A ... / ...G F E G ... Bb Db C Bb...
    1st.........4 3 2 1................................................. ....1 sl1..... 1st finger slides down to 8th position(sl)
    2nd...........................s4 4 3 2............................3 .........4......this note is in 8th position
    3rd............................................... .....4 2 1 4
    and then slide down to 7th position for the next II- V as the 2nd example.

    any of the 4th finger or1st finger stretches can be swaped depending how you want to articulate or pick etc.

    The point for me is... I'm relating the line to the chords....
    Last edited by Reg; 01-23-2016 at 03:49 PM.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... the fingerings are a process for the neck to becoming one big fingering.

    The head can easily played in 10th position or 8th... I'm going with your version in Bb. Right the head is between the 5th and up an octave to another 5th and one 6th, or F on the staff up to G above the staff.

    So basically between F and G above the staff... so at some point you would need to play that G on 1st string at 15th fret.... or take it down an octave...

    As a general rule... if your playing typical standard, Like the Rogers and Hart Show tune TCBL the melodies usually are within an octave and a half... and the melodies are usually old school harmony etc... So I usually think triad and open position chords... that's how a lot of diatonic melodies are put together... so the big notes are roots and 5th etc... Bb triad with root 5 or 5th string. You know that open position "C" cowboy chord that has the low and high 5th in same position. Slide up to 10th position, It's a bar chord, just using "C"... Caged etc... Caged fingerings work great, I use them all the time, they do have holes, but they also have a sound etc...

    So technically I would be using the fingering based on root 6th string patterns beginning on the 4th degree.
    Bbmaj starting on the 4th degree, (Eb) 2nd finger 11th fret... 10th position.

    I don't go through this process... it's instinctive... or I could play the melody all on the 1st string... pretty stupid... but could be done without... again without thinking.

    As pointed out above... your after the best sound that works for what your playing. I generally never play melodies on lower strings. ( except for effect), I'll use the 4th string or "D" string down to 4th or 5th fret...F# or G. And generally any note above that high G on 1st string 15th fret becomes too thin.

    For This Can't be Love... I usually play octaves... and for octaves I'm usually transposing 8vb, down an octave, because I usually sight read from the lower note... I can go lower or upper note of octave...depending on if part is transposed for guitar...

    I somewhat have to disagree... fumble fingers... personally the fingerings best results are having your neck becoming one big fingering.... The fingerings are just a physical organization that makes the entire fretboard become usable without having to figure out where you are... Somewhat like in the tune above, Bbmaj becomes one big fingering, one grid. I can perform anywhere I want in any style etc... the sight reading thing is also obvious, how else are you going to sight read with out watching your neck etc...

    not to be difficult but can you please explain concisely and clearly what is meant by "one big fingering" and how stretching enables it and how shifting disables it?

    are you referring to visualization?

    are you saying that shifting is not a practical physical endeavor for mastering the jazz guitar?

  9. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    First, I'm thinking of everything here in relation to the V7b9 chord. In doing this, Richie Zellon's fingerings come in handy. But if there is a simpler, just-as-effective way, well, I'm all for that too!
    it's the same thing, since they're both based on seven scale degrees. If you number the fingerings by scale degree, they cycle the same way chords do 7362514.

  10. #59

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    Thanks, Reg and Vintage.
    Sorry the question was poorly put.

    One thing I didn't mention was that I wanted to connect each phrase / pattern to the next one by a half-step (where possible) or an octave-from-what-would-be-the-half-step. It just keeps on going. Ideally, you can do this with any pattern / phrase, just rip through the dominant cycle wherever you are on the neck without thinking about it. (I'm not there yet.) But I was starting at the fifth fret---trying to stay at / below the 5th fret for all 12 keys. That required a lot of open strings. It would have been better to start higher--say, frets 5 to 8---and (with a stretch here and there) keeping it all in position (more or less). The patterns would have been clearer to me then, I think. Live and learn! Thanks, guys!

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    not to be difficult but can you please explain concisely and clearly what is meant by "one big fingering" and how stretching enables it and how shifting disables it?

    are you referring to visualization?

    are you saying that shifting is not a practical physical endeavor for mastering the jazz guitar?


    Think "one big grid".

    There are many ways to finger/stretch/shift to reach the note you are looking for, that all depends where you're coming from and where you're going, the context of the tune, etc.


    The bigger point is to be playing anywhere on the neck and know what position you are in. You do this enough, as well as playing through the positions, and the 7 positions turn into one big grid.

    FWIW, Everybody has different positions they prefer, as well as the different positions themselves excel at different things due to where the notes are physically located.

  12. #61
    William Leavitt's labeling of the evolution of scales is pretty helpful with comparing things, BTW. He labels his 12 fingerings by cycle of 5ths: 4D/1D, 4C, 4B, 4A, 4, 3 ,2 , 1, 1A, 1B, 1C. The ones Reg uses correspond to 4 thru 1A, while Zellon's fingerings (at least dominant) correspond to 4B thru 1.

    The 1's are 1st-finger stretches, and the 4's are 4th finger stretches. But both are cyclical and could hypothetically be evolved further around the cycle either way.

    Again, Leavitt and Zellon label these , but they aren't INVENTED by them. They are naturally occurring in cyclical modulation, just liked on piano or any other instrument. You can see it pretty clearly if you cycle in open position from Eb to F, for example.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-23-2016 at 05:56 PM.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    it's the same thing, since they're both based on seven scale degrees. If you number the fingerings by scale degree, they cycle the same way chords do 7362514.
    Right, but unless I specified which chord I was thinking of, you wouldn't know what intervals 3 b3 2 b2 referred to . Reckoned from the I chord they would be different than from the V7 chord, or from the ii (for a bar) and the V7 for a bar. David Baker (-where I got the exercise) tends to reckon from the V7 chord in a ii - V situation.

  14. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Right, but unless I specified which chord I was thinking of, you wouldn't know what intervals 3 b3 2 b2 referred to . Reckoned from the I chord they would be different than from the V7 chord, or from the ii (for a bar) and the V7 for a bar. David Baker (-where I got the exercise) tends to reckon from the V7 chord in a ii - V situation.
    Yep. I think you've answered your own there. That's what I'd assume.

    That's a minor thing that frustrates me about caged terminology . Is it G-form dominant or D7-form? Richie's do the same as well I think , because he's referencing the first finger. But at least you know what he's talking about.

    Leavitt relates everything to major reference. I'm pretty sure harmonic minor relates to relative major and melodic minor relates to parallel major, for example, in terms of pattern number.

  15. #64

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    EDIT: i need to type faster. this is in response to vintagelove's post #61 above, it seems a number of other folks were typing while i was. :0

    that's not really clear, but it sounds like you're referring to visualization.

    you know what? you can base a visualization on any number of scale fingering schemes, 5 like for CAGED, or 7,9,12 fingering patterns to cover 12 frets. and you can visualize as many patterns as your brain can handle. it's a free country.

    physics dictates that you can only play in one place at a time. but - you can visualize other positions/fingerings and connect them either by leap or shift between positions - AND - will need to practice and master those connections.

    beyond that, it's not very clear what "ya'll" are talking about. sounds like a bunch of misty philosophy speak to me. sorry 'bout that.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    William Leavitt's labeling of the evolution of scales is pretty helpful with comparing things, BTW. He labels his 12 fingerings by cycle of 5ths: 4D/1D, 4C, 4B, 4A, 4, 3 ,2 , 1, 1A, 1B, 1C. The ones Reg uses correspond to 4 thru 1A, while Zellon's fingerings (at least dominant) correspond to 4B thru 1.

    The 1's are 1st-finger stretches, and the 4's are 4th finger stretches. But both are cyclical and could hypothetically be evolved further around the cycle either way.

    Again, Leavitt and Zellon label these , but they aren't INVENTED by them. They are naturally occurring in cyclical modulation, just liked on piano or any other instrument. You can see it pretty clearly if you cycle in open position from Eb to F, for example.

    maybe, or maybe not invented by Leavitt. i would challenge that claim by asking for documented/published examples that preceded his published works.

    i recognize that these fingerings could have been a cultural habit, but i'm skeptical that they were elaborated and formalized to the extent that he did them, prior to his method's publishing.

  17. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    maybe, or maybe not invented by Leavitt. i would challenge that claim by asking for documented/published examples that preceded his published works.

    i recognize that these fingerings could have been a cultural habit, but i'm skeptical that they were elaborated and formalized to the extent that he did them, prior to his method's publishing.
    Re. Elaborating and formalizing, I think I pretty much gave him credit for that. At least, that was my intention. But, like I said, they "evolve" the same way in open position, simply by cycling through keys.
    I'm a pretty big fan of Leavitt's work, although I feel it has some flaws. He really eliminated the vagaries about a lot to do with organizing the fretboard, chords and melodic. At the very least, you've got to admit that he really tried to put down a philosophy for all of it. Not just thrown together.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Yep. I think you've answered your own there. That's what I'd assume.

    That's a minor thing that frustrates me about caged terminology . Is it G-form dominant or D7-form? Richie's do the same as well I think , because he's referencing the first finger. But at least you know what he's talking about.

    Leavitt relates everything to major reference. I'm pretty sure harmonic minor relates to relative major and melodic minor relates to parallel major, for example, in terms of pattern number.
    I haven't gotten to the minors in Richie's book yet. Some people think of the ii chord for the ii and the V while others think of the V chord. Either way can work, but when you're just giving intervals, you have to be cleared what they are reckoned from. ( 3 b3 2 b2 from F---the I chord here---would be A Ab G Gb, while from C--the V chord---it would be E Eb D Db.)

    Robert Conti said he often thinks in terms of the I chord. He moves regular minor shapes around to get altered tensions when he needs them.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I haven't gotten to the minors in Richie's book yet. Some people think of the ii chord for the ii and the V while others think of the V chord. Either way can work, but when you're just giving intervals, you have to be cleared what they are reckoned from. ( 3 b3 2 b2 from F---the I chord here---would be A Ab G Gb, while from C--the V chord---it would be E Eb D Db.)

    Robert Conti said he often thinks in terms of the I chord. He moves regular minor shapes around to get altered tensions when he needs them.
    Wow, that's kind of cool. I've heard of that with moving the m7 chord a minor 3rd at a time. So for G7:

    D F A= 5 b7 9
    F Ab C = b7 b9 11
    Ab B Eb = b9 3 #5/b13
    B D F# = 3 5 #7 (a bit tense on the raised 7th)

    So for other minors:

    G# B D# = b9 3 #5/b13
    A C E = 9 11 13
    Bb Db F = #9 b5/#11 b7
    C Eb G = 11 #5/b13 R
    Db E Ab = b5/#11 13 b9
    Eb Gb Bb = #5/b13 #7 #9 (a bit of rub on raised 7)
    E G B = 13 R 3
    F# A C# = #7 9 #11/b5 (#7 is in this one as well)
    G Bb D = R #9 5

    It looks like there is a lot of material/ this minor concept.

    Apologies.....I just realized this is off topic.
    Last edited by srlank; 01-24-2016 at 10:12 AM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by srlank
    Wow, that's kind of cool. I've heard of that with moving the m7 chord a minor 3rd at a time. So for G7:

    D F A= 5 b7 9
    F Ab C Eb = b7 b9 11
    Ab B Eb Gb = b9 3 #5/b13
    B D F# = 3 5 #7 (a bit tense on the raised 7th)


    It looks like there is a lot of material/ this month minor concept.

    Apologies.....I just realized this is off topic.
    There is a lot to it. Carol Kaye has an example in one of her books where she plays a phrase (the "Cry Me A River" lick) over the ii chord, moves it up a minor 3rd to cover the V chord and another minor third to cover the I. You can do a lot with a few things---if you know how to shift 'em around. I'm learning... ;o)

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    not to be difficult but can you please explain concisely and clearly what is meant by "one big fingering" and how stretching enables it and how shifting disables it?

    are you referring to visualization?

    are you saying that shifting is not a practical physical endeavor for mastering the jazz guitar?
    No problems... so in reality.... all the learning and making choices as to how to perform music on the guitar... eventually becomes your style, how you play without figuring how to play... your internal technique.

    At some point.... all though choices of stretching, shifting, fingerings, where on the neck, I'm sure you get it. They all become one skill. And you use that skill to perform.

    One big fingering... is just the end of the road for making choices about what technique to learn. Just like a basic position with fingerings.... the neck becomes one larger or macro position and fingering.

    Gmaj7...is not just 2nd position 6th string root on G or 3rd fret... it's personally all seven positions based on each degree of Gmaj7...obviously I make a choice, an analysis as to all the notes beyond the basic chord tones.

    That one big fingering also includes any and all possible relationships with respect to that Gmaj7.

    It's really not so much the actual fingerings, stretches etc... it's the organization I use for playing the guitar, the physical organization of the neck... which is different for piano or trombone.

    There are obviously other choices...but if your ever going to get to that point....of having one big reference using the guitar to perform music, you need to make choices of how to play the instrument. I did a long time ago, and it works well.

    I don't have any problems playing almost anything, most of the time without thinking.

    I'm sure there may be better approaches to organizing the fretboard for performance... but all my concepts for technique have been thought out from beginning to the end... they don't hit walls. Besides my personal problems... which I can't blame on the approach and organization.

    Yes it can be a visualization, but generally I don't need to watch, only for effect. I don't really need to visualize what I'm playing... that's would be an extra step, even in my head.

    I obviously shift and jump all over the neck...but that really doesn't have anything to do with the organization... it's more about how I want to perform, at any given moment.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    There is a lot to it. Carol Kaye has an example in one of her books where she plays a phrase (the "Cry Me A River" lick) over the ii chord, moves it up a minor 3rd to cover the V chord and another minor third to cover the I. You can do a lot with a few things---if you know how to shift 'em around. I'm learning... ;o)
    Maybe too basic to mention but when playing two note chords (3rds and 7ths) on the 3rd and 4th strings the IV7 is a 1/2 step below the I7. With the same fingering. eg. E7 (xx67xx) moved down to xx56xx is an A7. The voicing is inverted. The V7 would obviously be a 1/2 step up from the I. Maj 7s are right there to with a 1/2 step adjustment.

    Again, pretty basic, (I'm a basic kind of guy) but it's good to have an/the appropriate chord handy and under your fingers for wherever on the neck you're playing a line or phrase.
    Last edited by mrcee; 01-24-2016 at 11:43 AM.

  23. #72

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    Speaking of pentatonics, Reg, are your basic fingerings for minor / major pentatonics the familiar ones from all beginner books or are they different in some way that links up with the major scale fingerings???

  24. #73

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    I am starting a new religion - Enlightenment through shapeless fingering and constant alternate picking. Anybody care to join?

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by aleksandar
    I am starting a new religion - Enlightenment through shapeless fingering and constant alternate picking. Anybody care to join?
    In my religion, we banish anyone who does NOT change strings on a downstroke! ;o)

  26. #75

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    but can we get reinstated and ushered to the front pews if we make a large donation?