The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    I don't think you have to completely abandon the conscious thinking aspect. A lot of people seem to view that 'beyond thought' mindset as something better, but I am unsure. In a Julian Lage clinic he says you can 'have it all', that you can be present in the moment and call upon all of your knowledge at the same time. I tend to agree. Either way, mindset is an interesting thing to experiment with.

    You are doing the right thing by just playing with the chord tones. A lot of it is basic internalization. Looking at a II V kind of thing, I realized early on that the 6/13th of Dorian, which I'm playing over the II, is the third of the V. At first I had to work pretty hard at seeing that on the fretboard, but it comes naturally now.

    That being said, and that situation specifically, I think the hardest part is how it seems like your whole perspective shifts from chord to chord. I think in interval numbers a lot, so my whole fretboard map completely shifts when the chord changes. If you are thinking notes you probably won't have this problem as much. It helps to practice improvising over single chords that are giving you trouble in a given position. Try isolating a small shape as well, one octave fingerings and stuff.

    This thread made me think of something. It is kind of crazy that people jump from rock/blues/whatever, soloing with a key center based approach, to jazz. There are a lot of genres that would make a good transition with playing the changes, like bluegrass. I just wish my first teacher got me started on playing over the chords earlier ;o.

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  3. #27

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    Kenny Werner talks about this and says you can't be thinking what you playing because as soon as you think the moment has passed. He says the most you can think about is the general melodic shape of your solo/melodies. So you can think of a target tone, but have to let all your practice and musical memory get you to that target note.

    I think when you hear someone thinking/practicing on the bandstand you can hear it because things don't flow smoothly there is an unevenness to the solo. I'm with Kenny on this you can think big picture on bandstand, but not details.

  4. #28

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    I agree...I just think it's a much different kind of thinking than in practice...more like "reacting." But you can certainly be conscious of what you play...it's not "auto pilot" if it's good, really...you have to be aware, and listening...

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I agree...I just think it's a much different kind of thinking than in practice...more like "reacting." But you can certainly be conscious of what you play...it's not "auto pilot" if it's good, really...you have to be aware, and listening...

    I've never agreed with the "don't think, just play" mentality. Jeff said it very well here!!

  6. #30

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    When content is well known, it can be summoned with a single thought gesture.
    An entire note collection, a progressional sequence, a dynamic curve or other possible musical events.
    When we have to engage in mathematical computations to navigate fundamentals, we are very at risk to miss the train.

  7. #31

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    At a gig last week I was playing West Coast Blues, while I was play the head, I was thinking ...the tempo was up, feel was in 1. I think I'll take a chorus somewhat in Wes tradition then get into more of a double time feel and open melodic minor modulating tonal centers, try and get rid of the II - Vs. At least head in that direction and see where we go.

    So towards the end of that first solo chorus... I gave some clues that I wanted to change the direction, So the drummer quickly set up an almost double time feel.... He set up the dotted quarter feel to get time into 4/4. The dotted quarters became half notes, then 4 quarters then double time off the new quarter note tempo...a version of Metric modulation .

    This happened in a few bars and I started implying just the II-s and then MM and we we're off.

    I'm giving this example to try and show how I think while I'm playing... I'm in the moment, but I'm also always thinking ahead. If I just stayed in the moment... I would be late.

    Personally... I could have easily just felt and reacted through that transition, it's not that complicated. But I chose to be aware of what I was doing... I was thinking while I was playing. There are just different levels of being able to Think while you're playing.

    If you develop the skills to be able to Think or not Think, you have the choice, if you don't develop those skills... You don't.

    Reg

  8. #32
    Yep, I think the best is first first you mentally learn them and then go play. You would still have to think, but less.

  9. #33

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    Wanted to just add something else to this discussion:

    I've been learning a teeny bit about psychology and personality types lately. I think cerebral analysis plays a different role for different people. For some, this kind of...let's say..."mind activity" is very natural in general, and is a big part of how they go through life. We all know people that are very comfortable being analytical and pragmatic in more or less everything they do. For others, this type of activity is frustrating, and they might feel much more comfortable (and be more successful) making their decisions intuitively. Obviously it's not black and white, but I think the difference in personality types is
    a huge factor in this discussion.

    This isn't a disagreement with any of the good points being made, just thought it was something worth throwing into the mix.

  10. #34

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    I think it's quite interesting Jake...really a jazz player kind of needs both traits...jazz might be one of the ultimate full brain activities...

  11. #35

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    Hey Jake... Good point, and Maybe that's where we might try going with this Thinking-While-playing topic.

    So we all have personality types, as least at this point in time. Do we have a choice as to how much this personality type effects how we play, or anything else. Can this personality type change?

    From a personal view point, it appears as though people either try and control everything or are controlled by the environment their in... Most of us fall somewhere in between.

    Does this apply to playing, are we controlling what we play when we consciously think about what we're playing, differently than when we simply play instinctively ? Are we more influenced by our environment when we're conscious of our playing, thinking as compared to just playing instinctively?

    Again, personally... I have no problem playing instinctively or as Jake said intuitively, I trust myself. And if I crash and burn... Who cares...I generally don't hurt anyone.

    Is anyone implying that their going to play something intuitively that they couldn't play consciously. Is this a kind of out of body or mind experience.... Or just being able to get out your controlling selfs way.

    Somehow this seems like a waste of verbiage....

    Again, personally if I know and understand, or don't understand, but at least know what I'm playing... I don't need to think or can think all I want....

    When I get paid to play with an orchestra performing a concerto for orchestra and band... I'm generally very conscious of what I'm playing etc... As compared to last night shreddin bluegrass in a brewery. Which approach is right or correct?

    I don't know... But at least I have a choice.

    My. Apologies for the BS... When I get back in town I'll make some usefull videos...Reg

  12. #36

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    Totally, just like in life there are some things we need to be cerebral about and some occasions where just "feeling it" really is the better approach.
    Something I've been learning a little bit about is the logic of using our strengths to access our weaknesses, rather than trying to access our weaknesses directly.
    For example, It should be clear to anyone who knows me or even reads my posts that I'm an extremely cerebral, analytical person who values practicality. I totally suck at "just being in the moment" it's not something I can just turn on and off. I have to do some mental prep work to allow myself to get in that space. For example, I've studied things like meditation found them very helpful.
    I can't speak as much to the opposite because it's not something I experience, but I know a lot of people are much more involved in the moment, experiencing the experience, and having to "think" or analyze really disrupts their flow and makes the activity a lot more challenging. I'd say those individuals need to find a way that works for them to have all elements in place to play the music.
    I agree with everyone else that it is all about practicing and getting things ingrained, getting things familiar. Each individual might adopt a different strategy to successfully get to that place.

  13. #37

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    My post above was in response to mr b
    To Reg - I personally don't make much of a distinction between playing intuitively or playing cerebrally. I wouldn't really know, the concept is too vague for me to understand. I just know that the way I think and play is probably different than the way somebody else does.
    Part of my point is that even the idea of "thinking" varies between individuals. For some people, maybe you and me, from what you've said about yourself, "thinking" is a very natural and automatic process. I've heard a lot of pros say things like "I don't think while I'm playing." Obviously there is some mental activity going on, not sure what they would call it if not "thinking."

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    My post above was in response to mr b
    To Reg - I personally don't make much of a distinction between playing intuitively or playing cerebrally. I wouldn't really know, the concept is too vague for me to understand. I just know that the way I think and play is probably different than the way somebody else does.
    Part of my point is that even the idea of "thinking" varies between individuals. For some people, maybe you and me, from what you've said about yourself, "thinking" is a very natural and automatic process. I've heard a lot of pros say things like "I don't think while I'm playing." Obviously there is some mental activity going on, not sure what they would call it if not "thinking."
    Have a look at dis den

  15. #39

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    haha thanks, but 1:36:54 - is there a condensed version???

  16. #40

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    from one amazon reviewer of werner's much-touted book 'effortless mastery' (spelling corrected):

    "This book could be described as an attempt to apply pseudo-Zen teachings to music practice and performance. While it contains some valuable thoughts, much of it is totally impractical, idealistic, and in conflict with how musical development actually works.

    At the beginning, Werner claims "Innovation IS Jazz!" and he fills half a page with "proof" of this assertion. First, I do not see the relevance of this page to the rest of the book. Second, Werner is not an jazz innovator; if he knows the secret of jazz innovation, why hasn't he produced any innovations?

    There is some valuable advice in the "fear" chapters. Werner describes some harmful mindsets many students get into when they are practicing, listening, teaching, and composing.

    The affirmations Werner recommends are useful if you do not really enjoy playing or if you are not satisfied with your current ability. While they won't actually make you play better (at least not much better), they may be able to help you overcome mental blocks that are preventing you from enjoying the experience of playing music. (It is supposed to be enjoyable, as many musicians seem to have forgotten these days!)

    There are far too many specific points to go into in this review, but I will highlight a couple.

    First, Werner thinks interference from the "mind" while practicing is destructive. I disagree. When practicing, the execution of a passage should never be repeated thoughtlessly. After each repetition, you should use your "mind" to decide what was correct about that execution and what needs to be changed. Through this constant process of self-correction, your playing becomes more and more refined. If you merely play things over and over again without thinking, this will occur much more haphazardly, if at all.

    Second, Werner believes that things need to be practiced to TOTAL mastery before you move on to something else. This is both silly and dangerous. First, you will never achieve TOTAL mastery over something in the way Werner sees it. There is always room for human error; it is always possible to botch something no matter how thoroughly you have mastered it. Second, it takes far too long to reach the point of mastery Werner is talking about for it to have any practical value. It would take years to accomplish much of anything by this method. There are far more efficient practice methods that allow you to improve much more quickly. It is simply not necessary to achieve total mastery over every single little thing you practice.

    I could go on at length, but those are some of the more important criticisms I have of the book. I recommend it for some of the valuable insights and advice it contains, but the reader needs to think critically about what he actually adopts into his practice routine."

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz
    Second, Werner believes that things need to be practiced to TOTAL mastery before you move on to something else. This is both silly and dangerous. First, you will never achieve TOTAL mastery over something in the way Werner sees it. There is always room for human error; it is always possible to botch something no matter how thoroughly you have mastered it.

    Howard Roberts used to teach similar way. HR said NEVER make a mistake, practice at a snails pace or slower to avoid ever making a mistake, if you think your going to make a mistake stop before you do. HR would explain the brain remembers everything we do good and bad and categorized it by what ever label we are giving it like C Major scale. So one of the most basic things we learn is a C major scale, but still after decades play it and make a mistake, why because you made that mistake before and the brain is returning it as one of the examples of C major scale you played. So never make a mistake you're brain doesn't know how to do something wrong. He would say if you make a mistake you need hundreds of perfect times to dilute the bad one. Like in the Emily Remler she talks about practicing fast and making mistakes. HR told her if you making mistakes practicing your practicing making mistakes. Then from sports world: “Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.” – Vince Lombardi

    Kenny Werner is one of those you like or don't, I like what he has to say. I think the main thing behind Kenny's teaching is trying to get people to relax and play. People in general over think, over analyze, and are over critical of everything they play. There a good video on Youtube talking about practicing and if I remember the three types of goals of practicing something perfection, speed, and technique I think. That you can practice any two at a time, but not all three and you have to adjust tempo depending on which of the three you're working on. Then in video demo's putting it into practice on fast section of a tune.

    I think HR, Kenny, Lombardi, right track, and going back to Dr Maxwell Maltz and using visualization something else HR and Kenny and even Bergonzi talk about. A about learning how to train the brain instead of just thinking its there and will remember everything for us.
    Last edited by docbop; 07-27-2013 at 12:46 PM.

  18. #42

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    I got some good things out of Effortless Mastery too, but I agreed with the quoted criticisms. I felt a lot of his logic had many holes...I think Werner was approaching a fairly academic subject in a very unacademic way, it made for some incongruent reading but I did get some tips out of it. I felt a lot of it was more like hanging out with a good musician and hearing what he has to say about approach. You take the good with the bad and accept their limitations...he's not a psychologist and it seemed clear he hasn't studied the stuff to the extent Stephen Nachmanovitch (author of Free Play, whom he quoted incessantly) has.

    I think I've said before...it's tough to really talk about what the best way to do something musical is. There haven't been studies done on this stuff, and even accomplished players may be unintentionally misleading or misrepresenting their approach because who can be %100 self aware about how they are doing something? No musician can know everything about their own process, and somebody who has been playing for forty years (or even twenty) would have a tough time cataloging their entire education and the evolution of their approach.

    Practice it until its perfect...is that what I did? Or maybe I played it sloppy for a long time and then eventually cleaned it up...hmm...what did more for my playing, all those fretboard exercises or playing along with aebersolds or neither? well I listened to recordings of myself before and after, but one day I didn't get enough sleep and the next recording I did...I took a break off from playing for two months, then I hit the guitar again and had all these creative ideas I couldnt' access before...or did they just seem more creative because I hadn't been playing in so long. Get where I'm going with this?

  19. #43

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    If I may inject some actual scientific research on improvisation from physician neurologist musicians, check out this link and another I will post below for some fascinating insights.
    Jazz Articles: The Brain on Bop - By Michael J. West — Jazz Articles

    The link regards a form of MRI imaging of the brains of professional musicians executing certain varied musical tasks including improvisation. Essentially, researchers tracked which areas of the brain are metabolically active or quiescent during musical performance. Rather than a lengthy exposition of the findings, I suggest you check out this brief article and another one I will post at the end. Both very interesting and brief.

    I have remarked before that my experience of improv when I'm in the flow involves the Zen-like surrender of the wheel to my subconscious, an analogy to the manner in which when you dream, your mind is processing your day's experience or concerns by creating or narrating "a story" which might be fantastic in terms of imagery but which tends to have a kind of creative coherence expressed in a way free of the normative control and dominance of your conscious superego self.

    Telling a story like dreaming. Such a state does not imply that you are not harmonically aware of the musical context, just that you are kind of meditating in a way - a particular dreamlike state of consciousness which is actually quite pure and almost receptive.

    Of course, even in this 'state' your brain areas involving control of muscle movement and coordination are functioning , just as in a tiger hunting its prey - the animal is not 'thinking' consciously but moving instinctively.

    The Neuroscience of Jazz | Dr Shock MD PhD
    Last edited by targuit; 07-27-2013 at 12:10 PM.

  20. #44

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    Here is a real cool quote from an article about Bill Evans, an excerpt of a letter he wrote to a woman interested in taking lessons from him. Evans was a very reflective man who actually was said to underestimate his own talent.


    From a letter written by Bill Evans in 1967 to a classical trained woman who inquired about piano lessons from him: “Teaching jazz is a very touchy problem, the least troublesome aspect of which is not the stylistic question. That it is exceedingly difficult to teach improvisation without imposing style on the student. Therefore, it seems that general study of music would be most advisable with application to jazz. After all, music theory transcends style. So, a good conservatory curriculum would provide a jazz interested person with a great many tools with which to work in the idiom. I will only say that I believe, one must understand one’s materials clearly and thoroughly in order to take steps on the road of development. From there on, it is the familiar learning process of concentrating consciously on the thing being done until it becomes subconscious and the conscious can be directed at the next deeper level of the problem".

    "Obviously," Bill said, "you can't find in jazz the perfection of craft that is possible in other music. Yet oddly enough, this lack of perfection can result in good jazz. For example in classical music a mistake is a mistake. But in jazz a mistake can be - in fact, must be - justified by what follows it. If you were improvising a speech and started a sentence in a way you hadn't intended, you would have to carry it out so that it would make sense. It is the same in spontaneous music". (Gene Lees: Meet Me at Jim and Andy's, Oxford University Press, 1988)

  21. #45

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    Bill Evans is one of my all-time favorite musicians and produced perhaps the greatest collections of quotes about jazz, as well.

    I think that when I read Effortless Mastery I glossed over a lot of the stuff that I couldn't identify with, and took away a few basic tips that have served me well. I think the tips that helped are covered more fully in Aaron Shearer's classical guitar method, but I have to give Werner credit for stressing them as well.

    1) You're not going to be able to play well if anything that you're doing is "hard". You have to practice everything so that it's not "hard" anymore before you are able to pull it off consistently in live performance.
    2) To make something not hard, break it down to its smallest elements and practice them until it becomes easy.

    So, I guess I agree with the idea that you should "master" something like a scale before moving on. I think you have to be conscious of coming up with your own rubric of what it means to have mastered something. Maybe you consider it being able to cleanly play it in eighths at 300 bpm so that you can cover all practical tempos. Maybe you're a beginner and you just want to be able to hang at 180 or 200. The point is, that until you can play all your licks cleanly and comfortably in isolation, you're not going to be able to rip up Giant Steps. This seems to be common sense, but I hear a lot of players that clearly have not practiced in this manner.

  22. #46

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    Hey targuit.... Im only somewhat trying to put you on the spot.... But can you improvise, I apologize , but I don't remember seeing or hearing you solo over any jazz tunes. Do you have any vids or sound samples of any non rehearsed examples.

    Again I apologize if I'm way off base, but you have very strong opinions about the subject and I believe one needs to back up opinions when they present them as factual.

    Please don't take my comments wrong, I dig most of your posts, even when I disagree ....

    Reg

    Nice post Randall... Werner has his views. All the older players say what they want.... They can already play. Yea, I'm also one of the older players...

    ecj....there seems to be different opinions about how to get there.... But generally it also doesn't seem to happent without developing a certain level of skills or musicianship.


    I can add from personal experience.... Once you develop those skills, at least to the level of playing not being "hard"', playing new styles and material is also not hard. The other important point.... Practicing skills is different that practicing performance. That could easily be a new thread.
    Last edited by Reg; 07-27-2013 at 01:30 PM.

  23. #47

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    Ciao, Reg! Still hoping to hear about your last gigs. Living vicariously...

    I would like to put up some stuff on my YT channel. I had some covers and a couple of originals up, including a kind of Dixieland style blues I composed in 48 hours for a bogus Roland competition that required me and others to sign over the rights to my composition to them for the pleasure of entering the competition. Not gonna do that again. BS competition. Anyway, I took the covers down and the originals with the exception of one, partly out of concern for copyright issues with the covers. In any case, lacking a decent camcorder to create videos, I only have my MacBook I-photo capability or my Canon digital camera video function for making videos. On the other hand, I can record with my Korg D-1200 and post on my Soundclick site, which is actually faster and easier than making a video with my less than ideal equipment. And to boot, right now I'm going through a lot of crap professionally (MD) as a result of telling truth to power (State Health Dept.) that is becoming increasingly fascist in its attempt to enslave physicians (appropriation of my 'free' time and labor for no compensation) to serve the State. I have avoided posting about this, due to concerns with expressing political views or issues on the forum.

    Anyway, if you want to see a quick analysis of Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue that I whipped off last night under Improvisation, check the thread. You will see that my harmonic analysis (chordal) is accurate to the extent that I did it quickly early this AM and I don't have Transcribe or anything. Toughest thing was toggling back and forth from the forum and the YT video - start and stop - and I hate typing out chord changes. See if you agree overall with the analysis.

    I would like to post a video if I can get the time and the space to do it. Otherwise I can post some of my recordings of standards on my Soundclick page. But rest assured, I can play, my friend. And I sing pretty well, too. Double threat...

    Maybe I could do the Midnight Blue thing. Just worked on it this morning, and I could lay down some comping track, bass, canned percussion, and my electrifying solo. Would that qualify as 'improvisation'? I certainly didn't write out Kenny's solo - I play it by ear, and yes, I know where I am harmonically. I don't chant the modes, however....

    Addendum - Just checked that thread on Midnight Blue - the M-ster a little while ago just posted a pdf file of a real nice transcription of the solo with a bass clef line as well (Thank you, M-ster!). I sight read and played through it - my knock off transcription of the chords is in alignment. Anyway, I could still an improv solo with a little orchestrated accompaniment for your delectation.
    And I'll still play it my way by ear.
    Last edited by targuit; 07-27-2013 at 05:47 PM. Reason: edit out political commentary

  24. #48

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    I see the guitar in visual patterns, line forms. I already know how these patterns, or fragments of them will sound.
    I make it a habit to never think when improvising. That could be just jamming at home to a backing track, jamming with friends or playing a gig. If it requires thinking, I haven't practiced it enough and thus I won't improvise it.
    The sign that I practiced something enough(for the time being) is that I improvise it and realize afterwards that I played it without consciously forcing it in my solo.

    In the shed, I force concepts on the changes: thinking when playing.
    One example is the diminished cycle of triad substitutions for dominant chords. I have to think of four different triads at once, and consider them a family where any one of them can be the root.
    So when I practice that in the shed, I practice really slow since I have to think about what subs are available to me on any given chord.

    Some applications of that concepts has made its way into my playing and it just "happens". No more thinking. While as for other applications it will take more time.

    Thinking is for the woodshed. When you meet your friends and jam, shut your brain up and play what you hear.

    My 2 cents.

  25. #49

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    Nice points well articulated, Amund. Funny, I get the visual thing about the fretboard, but after years of playing, I organize the fret board more by sound. I believe I have an aural sense of the chords in any position on the neck. I think often in terms of chordal formations in position, but the 'sense of place' for my fingers is both by where I want to go sonically with a melody as harmonized as well as muscle memory, for lack of a better term. Like walking home from school when you were a kid - you know the way pretty well after a while.

    But I agree with your point - "thinking is for the woodshed". Where you have the time to focus and explore at a slow or moderate tempo, something I often do. Sometimes when I'm playing to record, however, I may focus on the "inner voices" dynamic or heart of the chords, often on the A - D - G- B strings and kind of let the high and low E strings 'happen' as determined by the chord root or voice leading and melody. The heart of solo playing really is articulating the bass line and melody and maintaining a groove with the inner line or two.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Practicing skills is different that practicing performance. That could easily be a new thread.
    I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on this, Reg. I've been trying to figure out what the right balance is in my routine. I feel like there's a certain amount of performance rehearsal I have to do in order to stay "in shape" for gigs, no matter how much I'm practicing other skills, but I'm struggling to find that right balance that gives me time enough to focus on both.