Confused by Guitar Modes

So I just got done reading up on guitar modes and how they're constructed and all that, and I understand the theory behind it and all, but I'm still a little confused on their application.

Or you could just clarify some things for me here:

When do you use the different modes?

The way I understand it is modes are derived from a parent scale and contain the exact same notes as the parent scale and only differ in their root and ending note.
So if we're in the key of C major so this means you can solo using any of the 7 modes right?

But when else can you use them for?

each mode has a different sound, or character. Even though mixolydian uses the same notes as aeolian ....they have very different sounds. a skilled musician can use the modes to create familiar sounds for the listener. most people recognize the sound of a mode and can easily distinguish them. for instance if you bring out the phrygian sound people will recognize a spanish flavor in your stew. if you bring on the locrian mode, you will summon the devil and people will go berzerk.

I'm not sure I understand modes that well either. I've put off looking more into them until I have more basic theory clamped down, but yeah it seems like it's one of those things that people with more music theory understanding just get but have a hard time communicating to us peons? :)

Like from my simple understanding, I find it hard to see a difference when looking at the modes of a C major scale. So Ionian is just C major. And then the second mode is the same exact notes, but it starts with D.

So if you're playing the same exact notes from the C major scale, how is it supposed to sound any different? Is it because if you start with middle C for your C major scale, you're going to end up with notes from a higher octave when using a mode of the C major scale? I feel like I'm absolutely wrong here the more I think about it the less sense it makes.

The way I look at modes is they are different variations of major/minor/diminished tonality (I'm referring to the major scale modes). Ionian, lydian and mixolydian have a "major" sound to them. Dorian, phyrigian, and aeolean (natural minor) have a "minor" sound to them. Locrian has that half-diminished thing going on.

For example, try playing aeolean, dorian or phyigian over a minor chord, lets say Dminor. Now play dorian rooted on the D. Now play phryigian, and so on. You'll notice they all have that minor sound to them but each one has it's own "flavor". Same thing with major and the major sounding modes.

Instead of viewing modes as "sections of a scale", think of them as their own scales with their own sounds. A minor chord comes up, what are you gonna play? Dorian? Phyrigian? Why not play one of the "major" modes over the minor chord? The choice is yours to make whatever sound you think is interesting. Music would be pretty boring if everything was diatonic.

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Originally Posted by Soclydeza

The way I look at modes is they are different variations of major/minor/diminished tonality (I'm referring to the major scale modes). Ionian, lydian and mixolydian have a "major" sound to them. Dorian, phyrigian, and aeolean (natural minor) have a "minor" sound to them. Locrian has that half-diminished thing going on.

For example, try playing aeolean, dorian or phyigian over a minor chord, lets say Dminor. Now play dorian rooted on the D. Now play phryigian, and so on. You'll notice they all have that minor sound to them but each one has it's own "flavor". Same thing with major and the major sounding modes.

Instead of viewing modes as "sections of a scale", think of them as their own scales with their own sounds. A minor chord comes up, what are you gonna play? Dorian? Phyrigian? Why not play one of the "major" modes over the minor chord? The choice is yours to make whatever sound you think is interesting. Music would be pretty boring if everything was diatonic.

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See this is where I get confused.

It's baffling to me because I know to you guys this is so simple to understand but I just cannot grasp it.

To make it simple as possible, you want to play a scale behind a Cmajor. Instead of just playing the C major scale behind it, you decide to play the locrian mode of the C major scale. Which contains the same notes as the C major scale, they just start and stop in a different location.

How could playing notes from the same exact pool sound any different? That's where I'm getting confused.

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Originally Posted by a_small_coyote

See this is where I get confused.

It's baffling to me because I know to you guys this is so simple to understand but I just cannot grasp it.

To make it simple as possible, you want to play a scale behind a Cmajor. Instead of just playing the C major scale behind it, you decide to play the locrian mode of the C major scale. Which contains the same notes as the C major scale, they just start and stop in a different location.

How could playing notes from the same exact pool sound any different? That's where I'm getting confused.

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It's not the same pool, lemme clarify. Play a Dminor chord, now play dorian where the first note is D. Now play phyrigian where the first note is D.

Another example, take C major chord, the I chord of the C major scale. Now play the C major scale, they'll all have the same notes, C D E F G A B C. Now play the C major chord, but play lydian, where first note of the scale is C. Now you'll be playing C D F# G A B C. Now try mixolydian over that chord where the first note of the scale is C. Now you're playing C D E F G A Bb C. With lydian you have F#, with mixolydian you have Bb over a chord that normally would ask for an natural F or B, it'll make it sound more interesting. What sounds good and what doesn't is up to you to decide. Try carrying that principle to the other modes and chords.

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Originally Posted by Soclydeza

It's not the same pool, lemme clarify. Play a Dminor chord, now play dorian where the first note is D. Now play phyrigian where the first note is D.

Another example, take C major chord, the I chord of the C major scale. Now play the C major scale, they'll all have the same notes, C D E F G A B C. Now play the C major chord, but play lydian, where first note of the scale is C. Now you'll be playing C D F# G A B C. Now try mixolydian over that chord where the first note of the scale is C. Now you're playing C D E F G A Bb C. With lydian you have F#, with mixolydian you have Bb over a chord that normally would ask for an natural F or B, it'll make it sound more interesting. What sounds good and what doesn't is up to you to decide. Try carrying that principle to the other modes and chords.

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Ok...

So basically instead of using a different mode of the C major scale to play over a C major chord, I'd want to use a mode of a different scale that happens to START with C? That makes more sense if that's the case.

Although in my extremely limited experience with mode understanding being slippery, the fact that it makes sense to means I am probably wrong there. :cool:

I don't advise you to think of, say, F Lydian as C Major beginning and ending on F. It sounds as if this way of explaining things has confused you as it's confused many others before you. That's not your fault: it's wrong. The harmonic context largely determines this stuff, not start- and end-notes.

If you want to learn the Lydian scale, learn it in relation to the chord tones it contains, work it into solos at appropriate points, transcribe / read examples of lines you like that use it and listen intently until you know what "Lydian" sounds like.

If you know the Major scale you'll find that the Lydian scale makes familiar-looking shapes on the fingerboard, making it easier to learn. Bingo -- that's all it means for a scale to be a mode of another scale, at least from the perspective of practical playing.

IOW, thoroughly learn one "mode" at a time and don't get hung up on theory if it doesn't help your playing. At a gig, nobody cares how much theory you know.

You can also think of it this way. The major scale - in any key - is basically the Ionian mode and runs like this: Root(1); whole-step(2); whole-step(3); half-step(4); whole-step(5); whole-step(6); whole-step(7); half-step(octave).

Now, if you play the Dorian mode, it's still the major scale, but the step sequence goes: Root(1); whole-step(2); half-step(3); whole-step(4); whole-step(5); whole-step(6); half-step(7); whole-step (Octave).
Note the half-step to the third note gives the mode a minor sound, and in fact makes it a minor mode.

It's not that the notes of the modes are different from the underlying scale, it's that the arrangement of half and whole steps moves in relation to the ROOT OF THE MODE. And all seven modes of the major scale produce a different sequence of whole steps and half steps in relation to the root of the mode. Thus each one produces a different sound.

Easy way to hear this: Play a C minor 7th chord at the 8th fret (6th string root) and play the C Dorian mode over it. It's very familiar and the first "jazzy" sound most rock guitarists can actually "get".
Now play the C Phrygian mode over that same Cm7 chord. The Phrygian also is also a minor mode (it's first interval is a half-step), but it sounds totally different (often called the Spanish sound) from the Dorian.

I's all about the change in intervals, not changes in notes.

Modes are not based on fingerings. They are based on a hierarchy of intervals centered around the modal root.
As to scale fingerings, learn to play scales all over. Develop the ability to move in any direction regardless which finger is on which scale tone.

To learn the sounds of the modes:

Take any 2 octave C scale fingering that you know well.

Improvise from that pool of notes against the following drone notes: C, D, E, F, G, A, B

This approach reveal the multiple harmonic aspects contained in one scale. This is described as a derivative approach.

Using the same scale shape but move it to the following keys: C, Bb, Ab, G, F, Eb, Db
Play each one of these keys against a C drone. This is described as a parallel approach.

You can use a metronome, drum machine or drum loop to facilitate different rhythmic environments.
Keep it musical as possible, we are only limited by our imagination.
Learn the sounds first. Later analyze the intervals and chordal extensions of each mode.

When ready, transpose the above procedures to all the keys. Use a similar method with melodic minor, harmonic minor, harmonic major.
When ready, begin to apply to 2 chord, 4 chord sequences. Then on to song forms.
Don't wait till you have mastered this to play songs. That is something you can do from day one.

This is basic harmonic ear training work.

Here's a link from Matt Otto for Drone MP3's: drone, drones, pledal point, jazz improvisation, tambura, tanpura, indian classical, indian music, sitar, jazz theory, sax, saxophone, music theory, ali akbar kaun, tabla | mattotto.org

Once the major scale is mastered in 5 positions, rather than relearning all sorts of fingerings, I do this for example in the key of C (I hold Dm7 constant as the m7 chord for illustrative purposes):

For Ionian, play off root major scale notes (C major scale notes over Cmaj7)

Dor Dorian, play major scale one step down (C major scale notes over Dm7)

For Phrygian, play major scale down a minor 3rd (Bb major scale over Dm7)

For Lydian , play major scale up a 5th (G major scale notes over Cmaj 7)

For Mixolydian, play major scale up a 4th (C major scale notes over G7)

For Aeolian, play major scale up a minor 3rd (F major scale notes over Dm7)

For Locrian, play major scale up one fret (Eb major scale notes over Dm7)


Any feedback on this approach?

Thanks,

Bill

Just wanted to add another vote to Bako's drone suggestions - that type of improvisation is something I did very often and very much, long before I even got into playing over jazz tunes and it was extremely helpful for ear training, understanding the fretboard, finding certain harmonies or melodies that were personally appealing, and eventually discovering many, many chord voicings and harmonic sequences.

I wanted to add that instead of playing with a recorded drone, one can also drone an open string. For keys besides E, A, D, G, or B, open strings can be re-tuned...

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Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

Any feedback on this approach?

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This is exactly the approach we seem to see presented most often, and I think it's (a) confusing for students, (b) not very practical and (c) only sort-of correct anyway.

Longer version:

I think (a) is evident because it's the de facto standard way to present modes on the internet and modes remain the #1 thing that students seem to be confused by.

The problem in (b) is that if you have 2 beats of Ebm at 240bpm and want a Phrygian sound you have half a second to find and play those notes. Having to go through a secondary calculation (what's down a minor third from Eb? Oh wait, no, was it a major third?*) just doesn't seem desirable or practical to me.

I've spoken about (c) in a post above -- Eb Phrygian is not the same as playing a B major melody over an Eb minor harmony. That's bitonality. These are actually two different ways to think about your playing and they'll result in different sounds.

I don't think the way of thinking you've described is disastrous for initially finding the modes on the fingerboard. But if you do that, you must remember it's a learning tool that you have to get beyond. The trouble is that with a trick that works well that can (ironically) be hard to do.

And yes, bako's advice about drones is solid. I have an app on my (Android) phone that simulates a tambura that's a great practice tool, although it's tough for me to get a jazz feel going with it. BIAB or Impro-Visor playing a one-chord vamp works great, too.

[* Yes it was :D]

For me, the ability to easily and naturally plea major scale licks, patterns, and knowing where the sounds are easily justifies use of this approach.

Much harder for me to think about where that #2 or b6 is at 240 bpm, compared to these "rules of thumb".

I sense that the beginners confusion comes from not really having mastered their major scales in 5 positions and then what modes really are.

But different strokes :)

From my blog...

WWHWWWH - Major (Ionian)
WHWWWHW - Dorian
HWWWHWW - Phrygian
WWWHWWH - Lydian
WWHWWHW - Mixolydian
WHWWHWW - Minor (Aeolian)
HWWHWWW - Locrian

W=whole step, H=half step

Relative modes in C

CDEFGABC - C Ionian (aka Major)
DEFGABCD - D Dorian
EFGABCDE - E Phrygian
FGABCDEF - F Lydian
GABCDEFG - G Mixolydian
ABCDEFGA - A Aeolian (aka Minor)
BCDEFGAB - B Locrian

Parallel Modes in C

CDEFGABC - C Major (Ionian)
CDEbFGABbC - C Dorian
CDbEbFGAbBbC - C Phrygian
CDEF#GABC - C Lydian
CDEFGABbC - C Mixolydian
CDEbFGAbBbC - C Minor (Aeolian)
CDbEbFGbAbBbC - C Locrian

For me, the best part of this journey (beyond the sweet sounds) is the "aha" moments that suddenly appear periodically after devoted practicing!

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Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

For me, the best part of this journey (beyond the sweet sounds) is the "aha" moments that suddenly appear periodically after devoted practicing!

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Great point. I love those moments. That's why I'm a voracious learner.

Ok....so bare with me here. If we're in the key of C major then we can use the C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian etc. for soloing??? All of these modes use the exact same notes as the C major scale, just different starting and ending notes and they're supposed to give different feels to the solos right??? I'm just confused on the application of it all. Then let's say we're in the key of Bb major.......could I use the C aeolian and the D aeolian for soloing since it's a minor mode and they're both minor chords or would I have to use C dorian and D Phrygian since they'd match up with the corresponding II and III chord thing?? Sorry about the newb questions but I figure if I'm ever gonna learn I'll have to ask.

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Originally Posted by Gmo

Ok....so bare with me here. If we're in the key of C major then we can use the C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian etc. for soloing???

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I think I can answer this...

From what you guys have said, if were in the key of C major, and you use those modes you just listed to solo with, you're essentially just soloing with a C major scale.

I think you're going to get different solo sounds if you use like C dorian or C lydian over top of those chords.

A. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, being entirely elementary is ok but I don't want to spread incorrect knowledge

B. Don't listen to me until someone with more knowledge answers :)

That's exactly right - but playing those notes in different orders give different sounds because of whole - half interval differences.

Having said that, I think that no one plays scale notes in order regularly (that would sound like an exercise) and that the greatest value of modes comes in when you play, for example, C Lydian instead of C Ionian to avoid the 4th by raising it. And C Lydian is simply the G major scale.

Likewise, you can play D Aeolian (the F major scale) or D Phrygian (the Bb major scale) instead of D Dorian to bring out different sounds over the ii chord.

When it comes to the dominant 7, you'll have to go outside of major scale harmony, to the melodic minor scale, in lieu of the mixolydian mode.

Playing the melodic minor off the 5th (D melodic minor over G7 - the Lydian Dominant scale), or up one step (Ab melodic minor over G7 - the altered scale) are the most common usages.

There are no such thing as modal fingerings. There are only scale fingerings that start on each note (inversions of the scale).
As you say it is the same notes. The accompaniment has much greater influence on the modal sound than your fingering does.

Record 8 bars of each chord CMa7 FMa7 Bm7b5 Em7 Am7 Dm7 G7 multiple times.
Improvise using only the notes of the C Major scale. Notice how the same notes take on a different meaning as the chord changes.

Modes are primarily used as an organizing tool to introduce notes not already in the scale.

You are suggesting using

BbMa7-----BbCDEbFGA
Cm7-------CDEbFGAbBb
Dm7-------DEFGABbC

Try it. The best way to begin to understand this stuff is by learning how things sound.
If you are unhappy with the result then modify whichever notes need some fixin'.

GMO - in your example, since you are playing each of the modes of the C major scale, it's pretty much all going to sound like the C major scale, regardless of mode. All those modes -- C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc. are all DIATONIC to C major, which means they are all born of C major and tied to the tonal center of C major. Modes aren't really used that way.

Try this exercise -- let's call it a Dorian Stomp (pretend you're in a Big Band) -- it goes two chords (stomp, stomp) then play the dorian mode; then two chords (stomp, stomp) then improv on dorian mode; repeat forever.
Here goes: C#7-Cm7 (improv on C dorian) B7-Bbm7 (improv on Bb dorian) A7-Abm7 (improv on Ab dorian) G7-Gbm7 (improv on Gb dorian).
It's just minor7th chords a step below each other with a dominant 7th chord between each to tie them together.
You could resolve the chain with a V-I (B7 - EMaj7) but the point is to use the dorian modes in a non-diatonic way.

That said, while you need to know what the modes are for deeper reasons and because the dorian mode in particular IS very useful, they are not a short cut to improvising over jazz standards. They work over typical Miles Davis cool jazz tunes, which were written expressly for modal playing, but the chord changes in even old swing standards go by too fast to be thinking about modes. Certainly, "So What" and "All Blues" are great tunes for beginners - they have lots of space and have easy changes - and you should work out your modal playing there, but just know that modes have their limits in terms of improvization.

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Originally Posted by Gmo

Ok....so bare with me here. If we're in the key of C major then we can use the C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian etc. for soloing??? All of these modes use the exact same notes as the C major scale, just different starting and ending notes and they're supposed to give different feels to the solos right??? I'm just confused on the application of it all. Then let's say we're in the key of Bb major.......could I use the C aeolian and the D aeolian for soloing since it's a minor mode and they're both minor chords or would I have to use C dorian and D Phrygian since they'd match up with the corresponding II and III chord thing?? Sorry about the newb questions but I figure if I'm ever gonna learn I'll have to ask.

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In the key of Bb, C dorian and D phrygian would be relative. Meaning they are the same key and could be used over each or in place of each other, but as Rich and others have said it is good to get a sense of the modes in their own right and know the the best applications for them.