Arps or Scales first

[Nuff Said]

Quote from "Don Mock"

"A very valid approach to improvising is to start with arpeggios first, before scales. And reach out to the "other" notes not in the arp. Joe Pass would agree with this. He was all about chord tones and melodies. "Screw the scales" said Joe on numerous occasions. In the big picture, all the paths end up at the same place. It's like the old GIT "West Coast" key center approach vs. the Berklee "East Coast" modal approach. Both get you the same end result. At GIT we told student at first to just play the C scale through a I-VI-II-V progression in C. Then add arpeggios for each chord next. At Berklee, you learn four complete scales-modes for the same progression. I think the key center path is physiologically faster cause it gets people playing faster. But in the end they still have to learn to sound each chord."

Enjoy
Nuff

[TruthHertz]

What ever works for you. Good musicians come from both approaches. Either way, you keep on learning until you see the common ground.
David

[Dark Star]

I just read the page where that quote was taken from yesterday, lol

[aniss1001]

I personally started improvising using the pentatonic/blues scale in one position only and with bad fingering... Clapton style: No pinkie And then I would simply listen to guys like him and try to make it sound the same way-ish.

Later on I learned the right fingering, all the positions, started practicing the church modes, etc..

Only after I focused on jazz I started working thoroughly on the arps. The arps are very much the key to learning how to follow CHANGES. I personally think that scales are very useful too (other would disagree) but I advice you to learn a bit of both but focus in particular on the arps. Know all the posible position/fingering of every basic arp. Then combine them etc..

And about practicing scales: It's an eternal task. You can practice scales for hours a day for years and it wont make you a better player in itself. So here are some general tips:

* Don't spend too much of your practicing time on scales.
* Don't play them linearly (once you have got the basic form in your fingers). Find interesting/challenging patterns.
* Don't practice patterns you think are "un-musical".
* Try to make it sound like music.
* Try singing the scales too.
* Scales can be great for tecnique so be aware of the details: keep the fingers close to the fretboard when they're not in use, keep the hand relaxed, etc..

[Evan]

I decided a few weeks ago that I was going to commit to learning arpeggios for the seven chord forms suggested by Ted Greene (that I discovered while watching his videos on YouTube). God, Ted was a wonder!

He says concentrate on the following:

Dominant 7
Minor 7
Minor 7b5
Minor 6
Minor 6b5
Major 6
Major 7

I started with minor 7.

After a A few hours of playing that, I noticed my wife singing it while we walked our dog. Best part was that she didn't realize she did it.

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by Evan

Dominant 7
Minor 7
Minor 7b5
Minor 6
Minor 6b5
Major 6
Major 7

That is a strange seleccion. It has neither the 7#5, the mM7, diminished or other quite important chords. Yet it has the rather odd minor6b5? And the triads? Why these particular chords?? Besides the m6 seems sorta redundant for example (Am7 = C6) but perhaps that's the idea?

I recently tried to determine which arps to practice and which not. I created a topic about it and received lots of interesting input but not the actual answer I was looking for: a simple list of arpeggios to focus on since there are too many to learn them all well.

Currently I'm good with 7, m7, M7, m7b5, 7#5, dim7 arps... and I started to play practice some extended arps a bit eg. 7b9. But mainly I focus on the triads these days (minor, major, dim, aug). Something I never did enough..

Anyway it's an interesting subject (and no so obvious) WHICH arps to focus on and why. Simply because it takes a lot of time / effort to learn ONE well... In all positions, variations hereof, all posible fingerings, all keys, linearly, in patterns, over chords progressions, etc...

[mr. beaumont]

I always advocate arpeggios first...most folks come to jazz from somewhere else, it seems...rock players, in particular, are used to the "catch all scale" approach...I feel it's best for them to throw that idea out, or at least put it on the back burner for a while...

It won't sound jazzy unless you're playing changes, at least at first...arpeggios seem to be the most immediate way to address the changes...plus, they make you start thinking about chords as pools of notes, not just "shapes" on the fretboard.

In the end, we're all taking different roads to the same destination...but I strongly feel beginners in jazz can really benefit from three things--knowing the fretboard inside out--knowing the major scale and it's harmony, and knowing how to build chords and visualize them both as a "grip" and a "pool" (the pool is the arpeggio, really.)

[Evan]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

That is a strange seleccion. It has neither the 7#5, the mM7, diminished or other quite important chords. Yet it has the rather odd minor6b5? And the triads? Why these particular chords?? Besides the m6 seems sorta redundant for example (Am7 = C6) but perhaps that's the idea?.

I couldn't say why. I just trusted that Ted Greene had a good reason. I can't find the video now, but I wrote down this quote.

"...on a primal level above the triad, which means 7 chords and 6 chords, there are seven main chords to know, which have dominated the history of western music for a long time.". (Ted Greene)

Then he listed the chords i shared above.

What do others feel are the best chord forms to learn the arpeggios for? And what order should we tackle them?

[fumblefingers]

i wonder if we are mixing up two questions:

1. which to learn first?
2. which to utilize primarily when first learning to play over changes (i.e. improvise).

the statements from the greats listed above seem to refer to question #2. are you asking question 2 or 1?

on another note, i remember viewing a guitar video that Joe Pass made late in life. it may be on youtube somewhere. in it he stated that he "doesn't use arpeggios very much" (paraphrasing) when he plays. i found that statement a bit odd, given my remembrance of his transcribed solos.

but then, my memory may be faulty. oh well.

[JonnyPac]

I always like to step back and ask why first. Once you know why you are using something, it points you towards a clearer practice MO. I know a lot of shredders who know all 2+ octave sweeping arps and a lot of students who know tons of scales, but cannot solo (meaningfully) worth a damn.

Actual common practice vocabulary is good to keep in mind. How was it actually done (and thought about). There are endless subsets in music (some 4000+) with 12 notes, but only a handful used in most genres (though jazz is proud of sporting tig ol' bitties ).

I dig scales and how they relate to chords and the bigger pictures: keys, modal frameworks, related keys, linear melodic embellishment of chord-tones, voice-leading, and the song itself. Music is a Gestalt; looking at a tiny portion is necessary at times, but far from the overall product.

...and never forget when! Timing is everything.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I always advocate arpeggios first...most folks come to jazz from somewhere else, it seems...rock players, in particular, are used to the "catch all scale" approach...I feel it's best for them to throw that idea out, or at least put it on the back burner for a while...

It won't sound jazzy unless you're playing changes, at least at first...arpeggios seem to be the most immediate way to address the changes...plus, they make you start thinking about chords as pools of notes, not just "shapes" on the fretboard.

In the end, we're all taking different roads to the same destination...but I strongly feel beginners in jazz can really benefit from three things--knowing the fretboard inside out--knowing the major scale and it's harmony, and knowing how to build chords and visualize them both as a "grip" and a "pool" (the pool is the arpeggio, really.)

From the standpoint of coming from a simpler music , I think this is why country players come into jazz more easily than rock players or blues players. You can always hear the changes when a good country player is soloing. Not so all the time from a rocker.

This is not a barb. Just how different styles are played. David Gilmour is one rocker who used both approaches, the overplayed Comfortably Numb contains both approaches, first solo playing through the changes, the second and final one (my favorite) the rocker approach.

I learned chords and chord melody first. The only way I could think of to solo was the notes and shapes of the chords and that worked fine. So I'm an advocate of chord tones first. All that modal stuff (over changes anyway) last.

[JonnyPac]

Nice post, Bill. I agree, though I dig seeing the full palette around the chord tones (and some 13th chords contain full scales, etc). Gilmore was a big influence on my young years, and I also love playing classic country every Friday night in old hangtown. Outlining the changes in country tunes is a total bast, and takes a bit of a different ear/thinking (though many larger concepts overlap).

[Dark Star]

I hear that same thing happening in blues, although not to the degree that it happens w/country. There are blues players that are not only outlining the changes, but subs, too.

[cosmic gumbo]

Ya gotta know the scales to pull the arps from.

[JonnyPac]

Yup. Yup.