what kind of guitar and why?

[ten left thumbs]

Forgive me for asking such a basic question, but this seems like the right place.

When anyone plays jazz guitar they inevitably have an acoustic (maybe amplified, maybe not), steel strings, but with a shallower body than a regular folksy-strummy guitar, and f-holes rather than a central circle. Why? Why is one type of acoustic better suited to this genre?

Please, it's OK to state the bleedin' obvious, because I really don't know. Why does no one play jazz on a regular electric or on a folksy acoustic?

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by ten left thumbs

Why does no one play jazz on a regular electric or on a folksy acoustic?

Well, that"s not entirely true...there are a lot of exceptions.

the basic reasons for an archtop would be tradition, they look cool, and they have a very specific sound that happens to work very well for jazz.

[monk]

Gabor Szabo used a Gibson J-160E for many years, then a Martin D-45 with DeArmond pick-up before switching to an Ovation Custom Legend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz0zYA_12og

[WhoisLevang]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, that"s not entirely true...there are a lot of exceptions.

the basic reasons for an archtop would be tradition, they look cool, and they have a very specific sound that happens to work very well for jazz.

As Jeff said; there are lots of exceptions, here is one of the exceptional exceptions-Ralph Towner;
Ralph Towner " Spirit Lake " - YouTube

John Abercrombie is another;
John Abercrombie - Days of Wine and Roses - TVJazz.tv - YouTube



Edit - I also remember reading that originally, archtop guitars with no amplification were better able to keep up with the volume of a big band, stronger mid-range tone cut through better, if I remember correctly. Hence the "tradition" part of the equation.

Edit 2-From Wikipedia;
Archtop guitars

Main article: Archtop guitar

A hollow-bodied Epiphone guitar with violin-style "F" holes.


While jazz can be played on any type of guitar, from an acoustic instrument to a solid-bodied electric guitar such as a Fender Stratocaster, the full-depth archtop guitar has become known as the prototypical "jazz guitar." Archtop guitars are steel-string acoustic guitars with a big soundbox, arched top, violin-style f-holes, a "floating bridge" and magnetic or piezoelectric pickups. Early makers of jazz guitars included Gibson, Epiphone, D'Angelico and Stromberg.
The earliest jazz guitars used in were acoustic, later superseded by a typical electric configuration of two humbucking pickups. In the 1990s, there was a resurgence of interest among jazz guitarists in acoustic archtop guitars with floating pickups.
The original acoustic archtop guitars were designed to enhance volume: for that reason they were constructed for use with relatively heavy guitar strings. Even after electrification became the norm, jazz guitarists continued to fit strings of 0.012" gauge or heavier for reasons of tone, and also prefer flatwound strings.
The characteristic arched top can be made of a solid piece of wood that is carved into the arched shape, or a piece of laminated wood (essentially a type of plywood) that is pressed into shape. Spruce is often used for tops, and maple for backs.
Archtop guitars can be mass produced, such as the Ibanez Artcore series, or handmade by luthiers such as Robert Benedetto.

[brwnhornet59]

I play on an acoustic, a solid body and an F hole. Each has a different sound and action. I find it beneficial going from axe to axe. It keeps me acclimated to playing differently at all times, keeping me on my toes.

[ten left thumbs]

OK, that makes a huge amount of sense. There just had to be exceptions, didn't there?

So I see 'archtop' is the word I'm looking for.

I did once try to put flatwound strings on my strat, but they screwed up my tuning and were hell to bend. So I can see the point in having a guitar specifically for jazz.

[mr. beaumont]

yeah, heavy flats will be a beeyotch to bend...but you can put them on a strat...just might need to tweak the neck relief and saddles for intonation.

I'm like brownhornet, all i do is play jazz, so i play it on whatever guitar is in front of me...i"ve actually been very into jazz on a flattop acoustic lately...all the sparkle encourages me to play more "modern."

and yes, archtops are all about the upper mids and the attack...they find a place in the sonic chaos of a big band (not necessarily louder, but they occupy unused frequencies where a dred would be lost) and they have this great "quick attack, quick decay" thing that works so nice for jazz.

the other thing is the "dry" sound...those overtones that make a open G chord sound so nice on a Martin might not work with a G7#9b13.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by ten left thumbs

OK, that makes a huge amount of sense. There just had to be exceptions, didn't there?

So I see 'archtop' is the word I'm looking for.

I did once try to put flatwound strings on my strat, but they screwed up my tuning and were hell to bend. So I can see the point in having a guitar specifically for jazz.

I do disagree with the "preference for flat wound strings" statement however...both historically and as a "standard practice" today.

One very successful broker of "jazz guitars" has an online presence at archtop.com: #1 Online Marketplace for Vintage Jazz Guitars.

The guitars they sell are setup to showcase their attributes as jazz guitars and the vast majority of them are setup with round wound strings for buyer approval. Obviously, they want to avoid returns from buyers who don't immediately "connect" with the instruments they ship (often at considerable expense) around the world.

Flatwounds have their place (and an important place) in the "jazz sound" but it isn't even close to being a universal preference...and it never was.

[backliner]

One of the advantages to playing an archtop is that they have a little acoustic response as well as the electric sound.

This means (opn our low volume jobs) that I can turn way down on rhythm chores and still get some sound out for the horn player sitting right next to me (and myself), which helps the band to swing a little more.

Freddie Green was only generally heard by the band when he played rhythm figures for the Count Basie band (for 50 years). He just jelled with the rhythm section in lock step with the bass and drummer, and drove that band.

In the same way, on those old swing tunes, I like to fall way into the background and only be herad when I turn up for a solo.

Since many guitarists eventually electrified their archtops, it became the traditional jazz guitar sound, through Leo Fender did get a lot of Texas Swing bands using his solidbody instruments in the '50's, and they caught on eventually with others, especially as volume increased in R&B and Rock&Roll styles.

[JonnyPac]

I play a standard acoustics and a semi-hollow with flat-wounds. I have not own a big box in a long time- the semi-hollow with the flats, neck humbucker, and tone rolled off is pretty fat and jazzy. I try to get a good jazz tone out of my acoustics via my hands; that's where the real test is, IMHO.

[ten left thumbs]

Thanks for all answers. Next time I win the lottery, I'll buy another guitar.

[brwnhornet59]

Ebay is your friend!!!

[paynow]

YouTube Video

[CarolM]

I went to the local Jazz Festival here, and a guitar player who teaches at No Texas state was at a late night jam and he was on a Tele. I had no idea that Teles were kind of a going thing in jazz nowadays.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

Originally Posted by CarolM

I went to the local Jazz Festival here, and a guitar player who teaches at No Texas state was at a late night jam and he was on a Tele. I had no idea that Teles were kind of a going thing in jazz nowadays.

The most famous Telecaster player in jazz.

YouTube Video