How do i swing a guitar?

[ten left thumbs]

To atone for my sins, which are many, I've been using William Leavitt's Modern Method for Guitar vol 1. I don't have a teacher at present. The book has me religiously using down strokes for onbeats and upstrokes for offbeats - unless it says different - and using the same principle for subdivisions of semiquaver, etc. I understand this though for a long time previous I used to just pick whatever way seemed most ergonomic.

Now around pg 42 the book seems to be introducing me to swing. How do jazzers swing? Are there different techniques? Do they downpick the offbeats?

I can already swing a piano. I like to swing quite hard.

it's funny, since I've been doing this very strict picking I've not wanted to improvise at all, since I can't plan ahead whether I approach the string from above or below. Maybe that comes later when it's intuitive? Or maybe when I know better I can ignore the book?

[TruthHertz]

You know all you need right now. Swing is many things to many people but it is simply the movement from one place in time to another. Some people swing hard tied triplet feel, some people so light that you can feel it ever so subtly. It's a very personal thing. Can you hear it in recordings? Well you know what you like, and you know how your hands move. You phrase with a sense of movement and conviction, you're swinging.
Some people say Lee Konitz doesn't swing, some people say Paul Motian didn't swing, some people say Glen Gould had a real sense of swing.
The book is nice but it's not God's bible. You'll hear God in what comes in through your ears. Your hands will learn to do what pleases your ear. When they don't, your practice will make it work.
That's worth less than 2cents but it's one person's point of view.
David

[ten left thumbs]

Thanks David, Sounds like you're thinking of the swing ratio, and that's not my question, I understand that. And i hear it.

It's more a question of the accents. I did take some guitar lessons and the teacher advised me about downstrokes on downbeats, etc, but at the time I found it too confusing. His rationale was that a downstroke was stronger. (I wasn't convinced, and I'm still not, though now I'm doing it).

On the piano I will bash one note hard (normally an offbeat) and the next note will melt away (normally on the beat). It took me ages to learn how to do it. In my experience if I go for triplet feel without also accenting offbeats, I just sound like a donkey ambling down a hill.

So: is it that it's true that downstrokes are stronger, and then I should upstroke the beats and downstroke the offbeats?

Or: is it that when you're skilled you can make any stroke as strong or as gentle as you want and so a professional will just take the most ergonomic stroke?

I have for a long time suspected that this 'downstroke on the beat' business is just told to beginners, who, it is assumed, can't count, to help us with counting beats. I actually count pretty well. But I must admit my picking has got better since I made myself obey the pick direction.

[TruthHertz]

For some, the downstroke is stronger, it's true. For others, it doesn't matter, you're right. I once had a teacher that told me I couldn't play fingerstyle for a similar reason. If you find something that works, that is between you and the music, and in that zone, nobody can argue with you, least of all somebody who wrote a book long ago and never even met nor heard what you can do.
Beginners or not, downstroke on the beat is a system that works well for many (and it does impart a certain feel you may not necessarily want or need), and does not work for significant group. It's a suggestion. Too often the word of others is stronger than the word of the self. In the end, it's your call. Good for you for finding your own way through it, make it your own by doing it well!
I listen to (bluesman) Albert King and his music has a wonderful weight and flow to it, and his command with the genre and the instrument is undeniable. Well he held the guitar in a way that is considered upside down, string gauge reversed from conventional. Nobody told him. It's the way he discovered his own music.
Donkey ambling down a hill. Nice image. Monk was not Tatum. Those were the days when there were no "correctness" police. Roland Kirk played 2 or 3 horns at once if he needed. They all did what felt was necessary and it served the music. I play fingerstyle, sometimes it's all upstroke.
Don't let what works for most stop you from playing the best music that's in you.
David

[ten left thumbs]

That's good to know, thanks. I know many have played guitar well in all sorts of ways.

I am generally wary of completely ignoring the correctness police. I also teach. I know what it is to teach something (normally an aspect of technique) that the student finds difficult and they can't see the point of. If they don't accept it it will hamper their development. But I also can't explain it, because they haven't yet reached the stage they can understand the reasoning. I have to get them to trust me.

Fingerstyle - I don't get it - isn't that with your fingers? Down and up seems a bit irrelevant. Or am I missing something?

[cosmic gumbo]

What do you teach, kung fu?

[ten left thumbs]

Piano. And also kung fu.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by ten left thumbs

Fingerstyle - I don't get it - isn't that with your fingers? Down and up seems a bit irrelevant. Or am I missing something?

The point being that you can make it sound good playing in ways that are NOT included in the Bill Leavitt books. Maybe I'm missing something... like the pick! I'll also play up down with my fingernails when it's needed, and I can also use thumb and forefinger in alternation. The point is, that's my choice. It might not fit someone else's idea of right but I'm not playing guitar to please a teacher.

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

What do you teach, kung fu?

If I taught Kung Fu, I'd be able to swing a guitar, kill 20 people armed with spears, jump onto a stage 20 feet up, fly through the air, play 2 sets and get paid in gold by from the evil club owner who just got impaled in a pit of sharp pointy sticks.
If I taught Kung Fu, I wouldn't be teaching guitar, I'd be asking my students to snatch the pebble from my hand.

YouTube Video

Time for you to leave!!!!
Ha ha ha
David

[cosmic gumbo]

Exactly, as it should be.

[Reg]

Swing is a feel... not a technique. the techniques are used to help teach swing. The feel of swing is usually achieved by where we play on or off the beat. Picking is a technique. Playing down strokes on downbeats and up on upbeats... is simply a starting point, a reference. When you count in 4/4 time do you count... 1, 2, 3, 4, or do you count 2, 3, 4, 1, sorry stupid analogy. My point is the picking is simply a reference to standard phrasing... where we all start on all instruments.
You can pick any way you chose... some methods are just more difficult.
We all develop habits... right or wrong.

[cjm]

Never swing a guitar by its strap. Best to put it into an old burlap feed sack when swinging it.

Make certain there is plenty of room, otherwise you'll knock lamps off their tables.

As a general guideline, if there is room to swing a cat, there is room to swing a guitar.

[ronjazz]

I favor the two-handed grip at the 3rd and 7th frets, especially if playing at Altamont.

[ten left thumbs]

lol. Burlap sacks are hard to come by my way, but I'll look out for them.

Reg, I find 1, 2, 3, 4 works well for most occasions, but I do get your drift. My question regards technique, rather than feel. I just can't talk about feelings, you see. As for technique, there doesn't seem to be an accepted norm or 'superior' way to do it, so I'll bear that in mind.

[FatJeff]

YouTube Video

[TruthHertz]

Now THAT's how you swing a guitar!!!!!

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

Quick! Somebody pass me my D'Angelico!
David

[zonedout245]

I agree with TruthHertz. I started playing keyboard, and I feel more at home using my fingers. I like the sound of a pick, but that's it. Bare fingers has always felt more intuitive to me.

Another reason you might not be feeling the swing is because of the distinction between "fretting hand" and "picking/plucking hand". Try holding chords and arpeggiating to allow yourself to practice only your picking hand technique. That hand has a greater control over rhythm, which is why I think it is supposed to be the same hand you write with.

[ejwhite09]

I was going to say very carefullly the wood will break, but I see many tricksters have beat me to the punch!

Honestly...swing=time on the instrument. You just keep trying and you'll find the groove, many techniques can help you, the best thing you could probably do is watch this
Emily Remler: Bebop and Swing Guitar pt.1 - YouTube

[Buster Loaf]

Sounds like your analytical approach to understanding swing has left you at a dead end. You need to go way down south, down to New Orleans.

[ejwhite09]

I just wrote a post in the theory section about how ive given up theory.
Seriously, burn your books, or use them for notes, get three or four records you'll enjoy and listen just listen and play. Hit bum notes, hum out sections of melody, play every chord til you find what you hear.

There's nothing you're going to read that's going to give you the physical technique you need to play music.
If that were possible, I'd be reading everything I could about pitching a fastball at 101 mph, and leave this music gig to the birds.

[ten left thumbs]

Despite the impression I gave at the beginning of the thread, I've really been enjoying using the Leavitt as a method book. I have learned some solos etc, by ear, but I find without an overall knowledge of the instrument, all it leaves me with is an ability to play that solo. After a while, that feels really limiting.

Thanks for the replies. I think probably my question has been answered.

[JonnyPac]

Swing has to be internal- like all rhythm - and then expressed through technique. You can swing with all downs, all ups, pick, thumb, economy picking, sweeps, you name it. You can swing close to a dotted 8th w 16th or tied triplet- different gradients of "how hard you swing". Tempo can affect things too, and don't forget about accents! Rhythm is tricky business, especially when we see how dependent a good melodic line is on it! Sometimes I think melody is liquid harmony that gets poured into a rhythmic mold in order to make a phrase.

There is also how your part is "seated" against the pulse- on, in front, or behind the beat. Ultimately, we should all strive for self-control and be able to shift the feel to what is most appropriate and expressive at the time.

[vittigo]

I like how in this video Pat swings to metronome. I use it as reference when i want to improve my swing

P.S. He start's playing 0:48

YouTube Video

[ten left thumbs]

Thanks. Pat does it all.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by ten left thumbs

lol. Burlap sacks are hard to come by my way, but I'll look out for them.

Reg, I find 1, 2, 3, 4 works well for most occasions, but I do get your drift. My question regards technique, rather than feel. I just can't talk about feelings, you see. As for technique, there doesn't seem to be an accepted norm or 'superior' way to do it, so I'll bear that in mind.

You are aware that there are many swing feels. My point ..some swing styles, like western swing, is considered straight swing. The pattern, or where the attacks are played off the beats... stays the same. It's very mechanical. So you could notate exactly how you want the so called "swing feel" to be played... accents, articulations etc... depending on your level of picking... you could pick any way you choose.
Then there are jazz versions of swing where the attacks... change through out a phrase. I'm not talking about accents... but where we're playing on or off the beat. How I articulate those attacks is a different subject.
There are patterns to how and where we play on or off the beat.
So the technique is the location and pattern of attacks... of playing on and off the beat.
Swing can be implied with all down beats or all upbeats. You can also articulate those up or down beats.
The reason feel becomes involved... when we play tunes, the technique changes all the time... If your trying to use the technique of implying swing... your always at the moment or behind... and that's what it sound like ...
The swing feel door is always open... we simply don't play all the time.
The use of the word "Feel" in swing is somewhat misleading.
Because jazz is not a memorize and perform style of music, most traditionally trained musicians tend to relate to Feel as interpretation of, expressive etc... where as in jazz the term implies a rhythmic pattern, the obvious difficulty is the notation. So it's not feelings... the emotional aspect etc...
If I was to take the time and notate out exactly... most wouldn't be able to read, and you would lose the changing aspect of swing. Why would anyone want to read 30 choruses anyway. In the end understanding and ability to play swing is one of the many requirements of playing jazz. If you try and use traditional notation and techniques to develop that skill... that's usually what you end up sounding like... a non-jazz player playing swing. Not good or bad, simply different. Reg

[ten left thumbs]

Sorry, Reg, I was trying to be funny, but it didn't come across.

I suppose it's that my question was about the technical, physical aspects of swing, not the feel. Feel of swing is another question, not totally unrelated.

I have studied the feel of swing a fair bit, and I do play jazz piano - I have a few swing styles that seem to work at least sometimes. The thing is I'm competent on the piano - and on guitar I have really basic, simple questions.

So the musicality question is there - and you guys are welcome to talk about it, but my question really was just about the down-up stuff.

[pingu]

Sometimes I think melody is liquid harmony that gets poured into a
rhythmic mold in order to make a phrase.

Man that's nearly right
its poetry

[Reg]

So basic guitar technique is to alternate picking... and accent your up strokes, (up beats) and slur over to the next downbeat. Somewhat like the traditional legato-staccato indication.
The down-up stuff is basic beginning guitar... Where you should start...unfortunately many don't begin that way and then move on to different picking techniques with out having that basic standard picking technique as a reference. The results are generally not good and most hit technique walls... especially with any tempo.
No problems... sorry I missed the drift. I also play piano fairly well, at least well enough to cover big band charts etc... I went through college playing Trombone... just don't have the chops anymore.
Getting back to the swing technique... generally picking and fingerings create phrasing on guitar. The better your picking and fingerings become, the less effect they have on what you play.
So previously I explained how I understand and play swing, on any instrument.... How would you explain on say piano or whatever instrument... what is the technique that results in jazz swing? Reg

[HugoJacquet]

1. Alternate picking: as in the book: down ON the beat, up on the "AND"
2. Triplet feel (of course)
3. Accent on the UP, of course.

As an exercise try to make the down almost a gost note. Exaggerate.

As an example listen to big band horns (sax) that play unison or harmonized swing eight note lines. They accentuate at least each 4th eight note..

Once you will be able to do this, you can "play with the accent", on the beat or off the beat...Listen to Mike Stern :-)...

On a side note: organs have no dynamics. Organists do it with the LENGTH of the notes, hehe (yes placement....but also LENGTH)...

About technique and feel..:People that "swing naturally", without effort just pick up the right techniques very fast. They are just talented. They "get the feel" and they "feel it". But it IS a technique (or combination of techniques).

Ask a classical piano player. He or she will tell you the TECHNIQUE (approach, toucher) is very different. He or she will have to study a lot to lay down a transcription of Bill Evans "correctly". Whole new set of techniques...

Hugo

[ten left thumbs]

Originally Posted by Reg

So basic guitar technique is to alternate picking... and accent your up strokes, (up beats) and slur over to the next downbeat. Somewhat like the traditional legato-staccato indication.

So the downbeat is staccato? I find that a little surprising. Or by 'slur' do you mean to hammer or pull off? (My book hasn't got as far as hammer ons yet)

The down-up stuff is basic beginning guitar... Where you should start...unfortunately many don't begin that way and then move on to different picking techniques with out having that basic standard picking technique as a reference. The results are generally not good and most hit technique walls... especially with any tempo.

Good to know. This is where I'm at just now, though for a few years I have just picked any old way, as you describe.

No problems... sorry I missed the drift. I also play piano fairly well, at least well enough to cover big band charts etc... I went through college playing Trombone... just don't have the chops anymore.
Getting back to the swing technique... generally picking and fingerings create phrasing on guitar. The better your picking and fingerings become, the less effect they have on what you play.
So previously I explained how I understand and play swing, on any instrument.... How would you explain on say piano or whatever instrument... what is the technique that results in jazz swing? Reg

Also ex-brass (used to play cornet, though my lip is now useless).

For piano I use this book:
Dave Frank, Books and Videos
It has a schedule of exercises (jazz hanons, which swing), tunes, voicings, etc and crucially, assigned singing with solos - so for each lesson there is a solo I learn and sing to as accurately as I can, starting with Louis Armstrong solos. The book is not just for pianists - horn players and guitarists could use it as well. there is a lot in just imbibing the swing, without directly trying to apply it to the instrument.

Personally I swing the rhythm, though that is a preference and I could swing straight also. Like many, I practice with metronome set to 2 and 4. The trick seems to be accenting offbeats, dolce dolce dolce on the downbeats, while maintaining a clean legato - but without getting too boring, so the occasional be bop staccato, or thump on something unexpected. Legato is the project of a lifetime.

All of this takes finger control and strength which the Dave Frank book has helped me with.

I have not yet reached the level of hanging back with the beat.

[Reg]

It's not really short... legato-staccato is a oxymoron, but is used to indicate stress as pressure as opposed to percussive accent. I thought you might be aware of the traditional use. Was trying to use as example of how non-traditional technique is sometimes notated with traditional articulation notation. The point being... you can get close... but if your looking for exact.... it won't happen.
As Hugo pointed out... is taught as combination of techniques... all of which never really cover. His point about length of note is also interesting. I can swing anything... what I find is when I play with pros or amateurs that can cover swing, we lock in on where we're playing on or off the beat. We're also aware of the overall shape of the, phrase, section and entire tune. We may focus on a specific technique or style of articulation or whatever else we choose... but the feel or technique, whatever you want to call it.... expands and contracts, it changes. That's one of the reason traditional players sound like traditional players when they cover swing, they play swing as a technique... not good or bad... but different.