How do i swing a guitar?

[ten left thumbs]

Hugo, I missed this as we posted at the same time:

Originally Posted by HugoJacquet

1. Alternate picking: as in the book: down ON the beat, up on the "AND"
2. Triplet feel (of course)
3. Accent on the UP, of course.

Hugo

So.... mebbe i won't burn the book after all?

[ten left thumbs]

Reg, I'm scratching my head. Thing is, I have no idea what you mean by 'traditional'. I've just spent an evening playing traditional music on tin-whistle and bodhran.

Now I understand what you mean by legato-staccato (first i thought smooth from note A to note B and then sharp off note B), though even now I've got that, I have no idea what you are saying about it.

My background is classical, though I'm fairly well-versed in jazz from a piano pov.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by pingu

Man that's nearly right
its poetry

[Reg]

Originally Posted by ten left thumbs

Reg, I'm scratching my head. Thing is, I have no idea what you mean by 'traditional'. I've just spent an evening playing traditional music on tin-whistle and bodhran.

Now I understand what you mean by legato-staccato (first i thought smooth from note A to note B and then sharp off note B), though even now I've got that, I have no idea what you are saying about it.

My background is classical, though I'm fairly well-versed in jazz from a piano pov.

Sorry TLT's... Generally when I say traditional... (on this jazz guitar forum), I'm referring to classically trained and educated musicians and composers etc..., all the musical practices, notational, compositional, analysis and performance. Not good ,bad, better or worse, simply many times different that jazz.
For example, take the Practical standards Thread group's new tune, The Christmas Song, when traditional musicians read through the changes..
Ebmaj, F-7 / G-7, C7,F-7, Bb7 / Ebmaj, Bb-7, Eb7 / Abmaj, Db7 /
C-7, Db7 / C-7, C-7/Bb, A-7, D7 / Gma, Ab-7, Db7 / Gbma, F-7,Bb7/ generally that's what they play, may add 7th's , a few inversions, maybe a function sub. or even an approach or passing chord.
When a jazz player reads through... the straight analysis to single tonal centers and single harmonic concepts... changes. We (you), recognize the harmonic rhythm of the piece, the AABA form with basic harmonic implications... I to VI-........ V7... The B section goes to IV, V and then back to last A...the rest is filler. Somewhat of a natural Blue note, MM, modal interchange and modal concepts... standard Jazz tune...and oh yea... could be swingin.
So being pretty straight...by straight, I mean tonal references...
Eb6/9, A13, Ab13#11, Db13sus Db9#11G7b13 / G-7, C7#9, Bb13sus, Bb7b13#9 / Eb6/9, Ab13, Bb-9 B-9 Bb-9 A13 / Abmaj7, G7b13, Gb13, Db9#11 / C-9, B-9 Bb-9, Ab-9, Db9#11 / C-9, B-9 Bb-9, A-9... anyway... the changes just represent general harmonic areas I would pull from, with standard jazz rhythmic and lead line use. All this , obviously working with the melody and what ever setting I would be performing in. Not generally how traditionally trained musicians approach playing standard tunes. I'll post a vid of comping through this tune... I need to post example for the "Practical Standards group", with playing analysis.
Again sorry if I used traditional , somewhat loose.
My example of using "Legato-Staccato" was simply to try and give example of classical or traditional notation... trying to cover usage of something.
There is no real notational method for notating swing... There are different notations for showing different techniques that try and cover swing. This is of course my opinion... I have been composing music for forty years, and have heard the results of trying many methods. The best always ends up being hire jazz players and note... Swing feel.
I'll try and get that video up... Reg

[ten left thumbs]

Ah, OK, Reg, I'm with you now. I was wondering if 'traditional' meant 'classical' - I just couldn't quite make it fit!

here's how I see it. The most accurate way to transmit what Mozart composed to a musician on another continent, or living in a different century, was to write it down. Interpretation and improvisation were always part of the classical tradition. The most accurate way to transmit what Duke Ellington composed to a musician on another continent, or in a different century, was for Duke to perform and record it, for me to download, stick in in Transcribe and learn it.

so in a way what has changed is the technology, and the changing technology has allowed music to be shared and transmitted in a way that shapes the music itself.

But something else happened somewhere along the way, that can only be attributed to a dogmatic mindset and perhaps the printing press - spurious accuracy. That is, the belief that just because the articulation was marked staccato-tenuto, that this was the only way to play the piece, the best way, the correct way. So people start arguing over the exact interpretation of a trill, how would Beethoven have played it (answer: he probably played it different every time). And there was for a short time in history the belief that classical music must be played exactly as written (because the editor is in heaven).

By contrast, jazz seemed very 'free'. Maybe it's just my imagination, but I think the classical traditions are coming round now a little and being less urtext-obsessed. At any rate, I play how I like.

oops I think I've gone off topic. Should be practicing. Anyway, no need to try to notate swing.

[Reg]

Nice story... and I agree the notation and articulations... don't give the entire picture. Part of the difficulty with notating Jazz... there are too many concepts implied... and going on all the time.
You could, and obviously has been done many times, transcribe a recording of a performance of a jazz tune. The performance of that transcription doesn't sound like a jazz player unless you have a jazz player performing. The notation doesn't cover all the implications of the actual music, not just the articulation...
There are very different elements and governing principle between the music of classical composition and jazz. The changing technology has allowed, as you said, the music to be shared and transmitted in a way that shapes the music itself... one of the problems... that shape is missing a few of the main concepts of what it is.
The free part of jazz ... isn't as free as you might thing. When your aware of what's implied, there are guiding principles... accepted practice. A simple progression with a few key notes in the melody, can spell everything out... it's basically like being notated. Somewhat like when we see a key signature... it has implications that are not actually notated, but your aware. That's somewhat, what I've been trying to say. When we write swing feel, it is notated, you can use whatever technique you choose to apply.
I dig your attitude... depending on gigs etc... I get to play what I like sometimes, most of the time those simple looking jazz charts, imply as much as traditional notation, obviously, you do need to be able to read and understand the notation. Reg

[P_Jay]

This is Hal Galper. He talks about swing.

[YOUTUBE]Hal Galper's Piano Lesson - Minimizing Emotion - YouTube[/YOUTUBE]

Forget about which pick to use or which stroke up or down, it isn't important. The moment when you strike the string is all that matters. If you need proof listen to Wes play 'Cariba' with his thumb.

[cjm]

Perhaps the easiest way to swing a guitar or any other instrument is to stop analyzing it to death and realize that swing comes from nature.

Almost all duple time and common time rhythms were taught to us by none other than the horse -- good ol' equus equus. And swing is part of the horse's repertoire.

Even if you grew up someplace like Brooklyn, you can imagine it, and if you grew up like me, you felt it in your bones since you were a toddler riding on the saddle skirts behind your mom or dad chasing some god damned cow.

And if you didn't hang on tight to them, you also learn where the drummer's rim shot comes from.

But I digress.

Sit down...imagine that feel, and without trying to mechanistically reproduce it through any specific pick or finger style technique, simply begin by swinging the rhythm to the chord changes...when you feel the horse (as opposed to feeling like a horse's ass) you've got it...with that in your bones, move immediately to single note lines for a few bars.

It's feel, and it's innate. You just have to let it come out -- instead of trying to pound it in.