I'm trying to figure out a scale...

[P-90]

I've recently been playing "Birdland" by Weather Report.
Weather Report - Birdland - YouTube

I've transcribed and understood that's it is in G Mixolydian, however a B flat (#9th) is played in parts. For example, 0:44-0:55.

Has this scale got a name? Or have they simply used it to get a "minor" feel?

Hiya by the way, first post and all..

[JakeAcci]

All 12 tones are available at all times over any tonality. Each one has a certain characteristic over each chord. Playing a #9/b3 over a dominant is common and evocative of a "blues" type of sound, at least to me. There's no need to name the group of notes, instead look at and play the phrases that interest you, analyze the notes harmonically (against the chord) and melodically (the intervals against each other.) That will yield a lot of useful information that you can use in your playing!

[Reg]

Blue note... there are a few ways to use Blue note concepts to approach playing almost any tune. It's pretty hard to sound like jazz without the use of Blue notes or Blue note harmonic concepts. Just as I've said about Modal Interchange, modal harmonic functional guidelines and Melodic Minor... and Blue note concepts... the doors of use and influence are always open, they start open as compared to deciding to use...Reg

[P-90]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

All 12 tones are available at all times over any tonality. Each one has a certain characteristic over each chord. Playing a #9/b3 over a dominant is common and evocative of a "blues" type of sound, at least to me. There's no need to name the group of notes, instead look at and play the phrases that interest you, analyze the notes harmonically (against the chord) and melodically (the intervals against each other.) That will yield a lot of useful information that you can use in your playing!

Hey thanks for the advice. It's given me the practise idea of just playing a chord, and making every note on the fretboard work for it. Cheers.

Originally Posted by Reg

Blue note... there are a few ways to use Blue note concepts to approach playing almost any tune. It's pretty hard to sound like jazz without the use of Blue notes or Blue note harmonic concepts. Just as I've said about Modal Interchange, modal harmonic functional guidelines and Melodic Minor... and Blue note concepts... are the doors of use and their influence is always open, they start open as compared to deciding to use ____(?)...Reg

Are red words correct? Because I can't make sense of what's been said. Or maybe you're refering to prior knowledge from another post?

Also "modal harmonic functional guidelines", are you refering to ii-v-i here?

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by P-90

Are red words correct? Because I can't make sense of what's been said. Or maybe you're refering to prior knowledge from another post?

Also "modal harmonic functional guidelines", are you refering to ii-v-i here?

Reg kind of has his own style of communication.

[Reg]

Yes... I do have a different style of communication... I expect guitarist to be better musicians. And sorry P-90, I'm probable flying above or below....
From your comment, I believe you need a little jazz education. I'll try and give simple defs. But first corrections ...are, they're and (influences) are... again sorry I don't have enough time... and obviously don't proof read. Does it make since now?
The point is as jazz players we start with those basic concepts of playing jazz, as opposed to applying or deciding to imply. So your question about use of #9 or b3 is somewhat like asking why is there a b7 in a mixo scale or dom7th chord. I gave you the basic four sources for typical jazz collections of notes, where they're from.
You didn't ask about Modal Interchange, MM or Blue notes, so I'll only get into "Modal harmonic functional guidelines".
Do you understand Modal principles? They're very different as compared to traditional classical harmony... The application, not the concept. Different set of rules for governing harmonic motion. The chords don't have same functions, different interval resolutions.
So your reference to ii-v-i, (I'm taking it you mean II-7, V7, Imaj7), would be very different using Modal Harmonic functional Guidelines.
Rather than go any further... If you could let me know where your at theory wise... or maybe your really not interested anyway... who really cares.... Reg

[P-90]

Originally Posted by Reg

Yes... I do have a different style of communication... I expect guitarist to be better musicians. And sorry P-90, I'm probable flying above or below....

Or both at the same time..!

Originally Posted by Reg

From your comment, I believe you need a little jazz education. I'll try and give simple defs. But first corrections ...are, they're and (influences) are... again sorry I don't have enough time... and obviously don't proof read. Does it make since now?

I think I know what you're banging on about. Then again I'm not sure how this is going to help me learn? Not to be selfish minded like.. or am...

Originally Posted by Reg

The point is as jazz players we start with those basic concepts of playing jazz, as opposed to applying or deciding to imply. So your question about use of #9 or b3 is somewhat like asking why is there a b7 in a mixo scale or dom7th chord. I gave you the basic four sources for typical jazz collections of notes, where they're from.

I see.

Originally Posted by Reg

You didn't ask about Modal Interchange, MM or Blue notes, so I'll only get into "Modal harmonic functional guidelines".
Do you understand Modal principles? They're very different as compared to traditional classical harmony... The application, not the concept. Different set of rules for governing harmonic motion. The chords don't have the same functions, different interval resolutions.

To be honest I've most probably got more of an idea with blues notes than the others (ironically), as I've transcrbed some George Benson solo's, and some more Wes Mont's. Whilst I also know a lot of rock blue guitar..

By "different set of rules.." I guess you're refering to the chord being more important than the solo? As in, the C major scale played over a different chord, can be refered to as a G mixolydian?

However, I imagine I'm ignorant of all four..

Originally Posted by Reg

So your reference to ii-v-i, (I'm taking it you mean II-7, V7, Imaj7), would be very different using Modal Harmonic functional Guidelines.
Rather than go any further... If you could let me know where your at theory wise... or maybe your really not interested anyway... who really cares.... Reg

At the moment I'm working my way through Jody Fisher's "The Complete Jazz Guitar Method", both beginner and intermediate. So I know reasonable amounts: Major Scale, their different varaitions for instance and the II-7, V7, Imaj7 progression. And I can pretty much figure out most chords, although a lot (with the noticable exceptions of Maj, minor and 7th chords) would take a small amount of time to figure out.

I think though a lot of my understanding will come through just playing the songs I really like.. For instance "Airegin". Cheers by the way.

[Reg]

[quote=P-90;182817]Or both at the same time..!



"I think I know what you're banging on about. Then again I'm not sure how this is going to help me learn? Not to be selfish minded like.. or am... "

All depends on what your trying to learn... What I'm always banging on about... is what makes jazz sound like jazz as compared to players playing jazz tunes with out being able to hear and understand what their trying to play. Somewhat like trying to see a very colorful painting with one or two color vision... you still see, but your missing much of what might be implied.

"To be honest I've most probably got more of an idea with blues notes than the others (ironically), as I've transcrbed some George Benson solo's, and some more Wes Mont's. Whilst I also know a lot of rock blue guitar.."

Blue notes are part of concepts, the use of the notes are the applications... there are many...right. Rock blues guitar is a very simple version of using a blue note concept application. Not good or bad, better or worse, but very different from from typical jazz applications.

"By "different set of rules.." I guess you're refering to the chord being more important than the solo? As in, the C major scale played over a different chord, can be refered to as a G mixolydian? "

Not exactly... When you play... you do the best you can... when we discuss what we play... it's pretty easy to get it right... there are no time constraints... By different set(s) of rules or governing principles... I'm referring to what controls or at least influences... what you choose to play in any given situation. Even if your unaware of it. The rules apply to both the chord(s) and the solo.
The rules or governing principles are derived from the concept... the chord(s) and the solo, and how you use them are the application of that concept.
You sound like you understand and hear traditional Harmonic Functions and rules for governing music... Cmaj. being implied as Gmixo., that is an example of using rules from traditional theory and harmony. There are many more methods of understanding harmonic movement and how you approach soloing...
Jazz has characteristic practices that are different from traditional practices... You won't hear and understand them with out being aware of them.

"However, I imagine I'm ignorant of all four.."

I don't really know, but from your comments... yes.

"At the moment I'm working my way through Jody Fisher's "The Complete Jazz Guitar Method", both beginner and intermediate. So I know reasonable amounts: Major Scale, their different varaitions for instance and the II-7, V7, Imaj7 progression. And I can pretty much figure out most chords, although a lot (with the noticable exceptions of Maj, minor and 7th chords) would take a small amount of time to figure out."

It's not simply figuring out the chords.... you should understand what they imply and where there from.

"I think though a lot of my understanding will come through just playing the songs I really like.. For instance "Airegin". Cheers by the way."

The trial and error method does work... it takes a lots of time, usually doesn't fill in all the blanks and you need a ton of talent as well as motivation. "Airegin" is great tune and great example of all the examples we're discussing.... It's also usually burnin... need to have your act together, to cover. If you want we can go through "Airegin", make simple analysis and try and show how different the approaches can be.... Reg
I apologize if my style of communication offends at all... it's not my intent. If you want to sound like a player covering some jazz tunes in a pop or rock style... as opposed to actually being a jazz player and approaching from a jazz perspective... you probable don't need to be aware of any of what I'm talking about... but if you want to play jazz ... you do need to be aware.

[P-90]

Originally Posted by Reg

Blue notes are part of concepts, the use of the notes are the applications... there are many...right. Rock blues guitar is a very simple version of using a blue note concept application. Not good or bad, better or worse, but very different from from typical jazz applications.

Okay could you elaborate on this?

Originally Posted by Reg

Not exactly... When you play... you do the best you can... when we discuss what we play... it's pretty easy to get it right... there are no time constraints... By different set(s) of rules or governing principles... I'm referring to what controls or at least influences... what you choose to play in any given situation. Even if your unaware of it. The rules apply to both the chord(s) and the solo.
The rules or governing principles are derived from the concept... the chord(s) and the solo, and how you use them are the application of that concept.
You sound like you understand and hear traditional Harmonic Functions and rules for governing music... Cmaj. being implied as Gmixo., that is an example of using rules from traditional theory and harmony. There are many more methods of understanding harmonic movement and how you approach soloing...
Jazz has characteristic practices that are different from traditional practices... You won't hear and understand them with out being aware of them.

Right okay and I presume these are the four source of typical jazz? (Modal interchange, MM, Blue Notes and Modal Harmonic Functions)

Originally Posted by Reg

It's not simply figuring out the chords.... you should understand what they imply and where there from.

Right. So could this be explained as the feel of the chord? For instance maj6 chord has a sweet feel to it. Whereas a 7th is more profound. And this can lead to a different choice or way of soloing over?

Originally Posted by Reg

All depends on what your trying to learn... What I'm always banging on about... is what makes jazz sound like jazz as compared to players playing jazz tunes with out being able to hear and understand what their trying to play. Somewhat like trying to see a very colorful painting with one or two color vision... you still see, but your missing much of what might be implied.

The trial and error method does work... it takes a lots of time, usually doesn't fill in all the blanks and you need a ton of talent as well as motivation. "Airegin" is great tune and great example of all the examples we're discussing.... It's also usually burnin... need to have your act together, to cover. If you want we can go through "Airegin", make simple analysis and try and show how different the approaches can be.... Reg

Yeah that's a really good idea, thanks.

Originally Posted by Reg

apologize if my style of communication offends at all... it's not my intent. If you want to sound like a player covering some jazz tunes in a pop or rock style... as opposed to actually being a jazz player and approaching from a jazz perspective... you probable don't need to be aware of any of what I'm talking about... but if you want to play jazz ... you do need to be aware.

To be honest I just want to mix together all the things I like and really create a style which I love. And jazz soloing is definately something which I want learn more and more of. And it wasn't offensive at all, no worries

I found this chord sheet for "Airegin", and chords sound about right to me. thanks.
Airegin score
wes montgomery AIREGIN - YouTube

[Reg]

Hey P90... cool. So the difference with blue note approaches... is where you decide to pull from, which harmonic context. Of course you can simple add melodically, and use a added note or melodic concept, which is usually how Rock, blues, pop and classical use... as compared to how jazz player use subs, sub of subs, Melodic Minor, modal Interchange or other harmonic sources. We also use melodically, but generally imply harmonically.
As far as source of chords or melodic material... the feel is more of the application of what your using... and that feel reflects what you've trained yourself to be able to feel. So to be aware of , in this case we're talking about sources of material to create this feel, you can be aware in a cognitional manor... or trial and error. We generally make plenty or errors when we're aware of what we're doing.
But sure... you cold simply say the sound implies a feel and react...
So I'm out of town, I'll be back Monday and I'll post some versions of playing through Airegin, I know the tune. Wes's version is fairly straight, but that can be one of the versions or approaches... Reg

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Reg

...I'll post some versions of playing through Airegin, I know the tune. Wes's version is fairly straight, but that can be one of the versions or approaches...

Hey Reg - Perhaps you could comment on Grant Green's version and compare/contrast as well? Interesting to see the difference from the Wes version...

[Reg]

I'll gladly do the best I can...Both great...Reg