Intimidated to play with others...

[chancho]

It has been suggested that I play with others in order to improve my playing. Makes sense and I believe it would, but I continuously freeze up when someone is even within ear shot.

What gives? My hands star clutching the neck and...if I'm a note off well I just stop. Its embarrassing and I wish I could just get over it.

You guys ever experience that?

[JakeAcci]

Totally man! Just keep going! Surrender your ego and you just have to SUCK for a while and don't worry about it! Go to jam sessions, find players on a similar level to play with.

I was practicing jazz for years before I started doing sessions, big mistake, you just have to dive in!

Yep, you're going to suck, you're going to stop, you're going to play awful, out of time, harmonically incoherent lines, and you're going to hate yourself for it, but the more you just get up there and suck, the less you'll suck and the more tolerant you'll be of your own suckiness!

Do you have a teacher? If you take lessons with someone you can play duo with them, that is great practice...

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Do you have a teacher? If you take lessons with someone you can play duo with them, that is great practice...

+1

The way to get over this is to start in a friendly environment. We all started where you are at now, so it is something you can get over. The important thing is to not sweat your mistakes and the more you do it the better you will get.

[fep]

Originally Posted by jmstritt

The way to get over this is to start in a friendly environment.

+1

Keep a guitar out on a stand (or hanging on a wall which is what I do) in your living room. Play when others are in the room, like your mom, dad, girlfriend, boyfriend, other friends... Make it casual at first, just hanging out picking a few notes, playing a scale,... anything. Don't make it a performance at first

Then when that becomes comfortable start stepping it up by making it a little performance. Sit facing your 'audience' and say, "Hey guys listen to this song I learned"

[Gramps]

You might also look into a looper to help you. Set up a loop of the changes your working on and it will play it back at you forever. You get better at playing the changes by creating the loop and better at playing over them by playing over them and you don't have to worry about what others think while you woodshed. It's not the same as playing with others but it will make you a better player when you finaly sit in on a session.

[chancho]

Originally Posted by Gramps

You might also look into a looper to help you. Set up a loop of the changes your working on and it will play it back at you forever. You get better at playing the changes by creating the loop and better at playing over them by playing over them and you don't have to worry about what others think while you woodshed. It's not the same as playing with others but it will make you a better player when you finaly sit in on a session.

A loop pedal is definitely on my list, thank you......

[brwnhornet59]

Great advice from all. This demon is typical, especially when one is unsure of themselves. As one of my teachers told me, "No one has ever died because they played poorly on a given day". This is so true. Like Jake said, surrender your ego, this allows the self imposed expectations to drop away.

It is not important how well you play, it is important how well you learn. We can't all be Pat Metheny or Joe Pass, but we can all give it our best efforts and strive to become better players as well as People. Music is a life long journey. Don't give up on it, it will never give up on you. Good luck!

[ESCC]

The real culprit that causes us (me) to flub, freeze and forget is being distracted, you're wondering what the people listening to you are thinking, right? Learn not to go there - like having a swing thought in baseball and golf, when playing I need an initial thought that starts me off focused on the tune and into the music and not thinking about the other people in the room. Music is infectious, be into the tune and into your playing and the audience will follow.

I agree completely with fep, start out by playing for people in a room without making it a performance, soon you'll reach a new level of comfort that will allow you to focus on your music and not the the people around you.

[EightString]

Jazz is demanding. Not like playing Bryan Adams covers to a bunch of drunks in a pub.

Typically, the other musicians are very focused on the music, and typically, the audience is as well.

I'm a singer, and the voice is pretty much always just "there", but the guitar stuff is, for me, more challenging because of the focus and discipline involved in playing through the changes with interesting, yet musical ideas.

So, before a jazz gig or before playing jazz with others, I'll set aside some time beforehand to run through some standards on my own, instrumentally, with backing tracks.

I'll start with a ballad and focus on melodic playing, then work my way up to a fast bop over the course of a few songs. I make sure to pick standards that have "interesting" chord changes and heads.

For each song, I make sure to comp at least one or two choruses, getting the chord changes under my fingers.

Then I'll play the head, maybe with a little embellishment, but never losing the melody.

Then, I branch out to a more improvisational style a couple of choruses. I do still take into account both the source melody and the chord tones, so I'm not just riffing on scales and such. If I'm just riffing, it means I'm not "in the zone" and thinking musically about real melodic ideas.

After about 20 minutes or so of this, both my brain and my fingers are warmed up, and I'm in the right focused state of mind for playing tasty jazz guitar, and I've worked the clams out of my system too.


I do this warmup with an iPad and earphones, so that I can do this anywhere that's convenient and private.


That's MY routine, but any routine that you can come up with to get you in a loose but focused frame of mind is a good thing.


Of course, none of this helps yet if you're freezing up, even in front of friends and family... singers in particular can be prone to this, and it can take some time to overcome.


Basically, everyone else here is right: go ahead and force yourself to play in front people, starting with sympathetic individuals, and you'll get there.

[Astronomer]

I've never played in front of anyone partially because of this, and partially because I'm not the level I see myself being at when I think about performing in the future :/

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by Astronomer

I've never played in front of anyone partially because of this, and partially because I'm not the level I see myself being at when I think about performing in the future :/

To get better you just have to be bad to start. It's humbling and it sucks and sometimes it's really broken my heart and drif3n me crazy, but probably none of us are performing at the level we really want to be performing - you just have to do it.

Jazz is a communicative art. Get your feet wet with Aebersolds and the metronome and everything, but ya gotta play with people.

I mean, first you just need to practice to a point where you can keep time and not lose the form on a tune...

[Astronomer]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

To get better you just have to be bad to start. It's humbling and it sucks and sometimes it's really broken my heart and drif3n me crazy, but probably none of us are performing at the level we really want to be performing - you just have to do it.

Jazz is a communicative art. Get your feet wet with Aebersolds and the metronome and everything, but ya gotta play with people.

I mean, first you just need to practice to a point where you can keep time and not lose the form on a tune...

Thanks, perhaps I'm just worrying too much. I guess I should start finding some people my age to jam with. In the meantime, I've been using some quality backing tracks I found on youtube as practice

[davekain]

I don't know what level you're at, but it is obviously a mental thing. The best thing I ever did was realize I'm not Kurt Rosenwinkel or Joe Pass or whoever. I'm me and I can only give what I got. Take it or leave it. You'd be surprised how much mentally that can help you.

I remember reading a article where Gene Bertoncini said-"Guitarists and or musicians spend too much time thinking about what they can't do when they should be proud of what they CAN do and roll with it." I'm paraphrasing it but basically that was the point and a good one at that!

[peterja]

When i get nervous on a gig or something, i just really focus on getting a good sound and swing. Just that one thing. I try not to play anything advanced or fast, because that´s easy, if i can only find my groove.

[eddy b.]

It always helps to acknowledge that we start at the start and the only way to achieve whatever goal we have is to start, however rudimentary we sound or embarassed we are..everyone you admire as a player has surrendered to this process, so best of luck in letting go and get going...

[Melodic Dreamer]

I'm still there when I'm in an enviroment of musicians playing a different genre than I'm use too. I wish I could get over it as well.

[mr. beaumont]

I live by Charlie Christian's words...or at least words attributed to him.

"I only take my guitar out of the case if I'm going to have fun, make some money, or learn something."


Playing with players better than you will almost always result in "learn something," most often result in "have fun," and often lead to "make some money."

It's the single best thing you can do for yourself.

WWCD?
(What would Charlie Do?)

[Helgo]

Hi chancho.

Thank you for your post.

Yes, I know exactly what you are talking about, I even stopped learning to play jazz for a couple of years - despite the fact that jazz is really the music I love and thus the music I want to play - partially because of these feelings of stress when "forced" ( ) to play with others listening (even fellow musicians in a band situation)....

I have now pretty much overcome this issue (although I have "relapses", too).

One thing that really helped me was when I was talking to another guitarist I have known for a while. This guy is a really nice person and a great guitarist. He´s a hobby guitarist like me and I used to think: Man, if I could play like him I would be really content and confident and playing guitar in "public" situations wouldn´t be so stressful anymore.
But he told me that at often times he is really incontent and worried sick about his guitar playing and at times is very insecure about it. Even to the point of total blackouts before a gig.
This was when I realized that probably it really doesn´t have a lot to do with the actual ability but more with a state of mind.
I am a perfectionist and I used to not give myself credit for things I´m good at - also in other areas of my life. That was not a healthy road to go down...


Probably even Jesse van Ruller or Pat Metheny think they suck sometimes. Learning to play jazz is like wanting to reach the horizon and even if you got further the horizon still seems as far away as it did earlier...

Another important step for me was to revise why I played anyways. That was made easy for me because I relocated to another town some years back and so I had a very "open" mindset about my daily routines and my life in general (I even considered stopping to play music all along). I brought my guitar with me but left my attitude of "I have to practice and become really really good" in the old city. I thought: Well, I´ll take my guitar but I will only play it when I feel like playing guitar. Simple thought, but that might have saved my love for music.
I then joined an amateur jazzband and for the first time didn´t worry about whether I was a good enough guitarist to play with them. I thought that I will only stay in this band if I actually have fun playing with them. (I did! )

(The two aforementioned things happened to happen to me within only 8 weeks or so)

Since then my nervousness issues have become better and better. Now, after having moved back to the "old town" I even started my own Souljazz Band. A thing that I have wanted to do for 10 years but never did because I felt insufficient musically and had a hard time even loosely jamming with others. Since in my city there´s a big and lively jazz scene and a conservatory, too, you can´t basically throw a stone without hitting a jazz guitarist ten times better than me. But I have fun doing what I do.


There are a lot of practical tips to overcome these issues and a lot of them have been mentioned in this thread.
But I think it is at least equally important to know yourself and to be abled to enjoy yourself doing what you love to do.
Don´t let your ambitions, expectations and insecurities get the best of you.

I could write on and on, because I am so interested in this topic but I will stop now,
please feel free to respond, comment or ask any questions.

Cheers,
H.

[69CHARGERMD]

Has anyone read "Effortless Mastery" by Kenny Werner ?

My guitar instructor mentioned it a while back after I brought up some of the above concerns. (playing in front of others, performing, etc)

We were working on some II/V/I improvisation stuff, and I totally blew it while improvising,,,really bummed me out....was embarrassing to me,,,

I had worked all week on some "cool" stuff,,I practiced it, had it down,,,but when it came time to play it in front of him,,,i choked...it really bugged me,,,"wow, he must think i stink now", "why am i bothering with this stuff", etc.

He made light of it,,and said "that was good", keep going,,etc,,, I told him,,,"wow, you should have heard me at home,,,i was burnin",,,lol, but i knew it was aweful.

He mentioned this book, Effortless Mastery, which i just finished reading...It was hard to put down, read it in 2-3 days, I could relate to alot of what is discussed in the book. Fear based playing, practicing, hearing, mind, ego, etc....

I guess you could call it a "self help book", but it does address alot of the mental side of things that go into playing. I dont read alot of these types of books,,,but this did help put things in perspective for me.

[TruthHertz]

First time is the hardest, 'cause you're thinking that it's supposed to be something. First time it's when you realize, hey it's OK, I just got 2 notes off and they weren't bad.
A lot of cities have places where you can sign up and get into an ensemble with people on your level. Do you have anything like that where you are?
I did that. And though I fell flat on my face plenty of times, I did find a horn player that I enjoyed the company of and we'd get together once a week, have a snack and play tunes. Each time it got better.
It's always a discovery process the first few times you get together. Think of it as clearing away the flotsam and jetsam of expectation. Then you get into the "hey I love this!" zone.
Don't stand on the edge too long! Jump in. Sound awful! And remember one thing you wanted to be able to do and go after that. You've got other people there to help you nail it. It doesn't get better than that.
Go for it. Report back from "the other side"!
David

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by Astronomer

I've never played in front of anyone partially because of this, and partially because I'm not the level I see myself being at when I think about performing in the future :/

I remember thinking that very same thought.
One day I "let" myself be overheard by a friend in the next room as I was noodling on something I was working on. She said "Hey you're really sounding good!" and that one little comment made me think "really? Hey, say that again!" and the ice began to melt. Once that happened, I relaxed a little more and I started to think that I could play something good. Right now. Something someone would enjoy. Right now.
I don't like to put myself against an ideal. Good friends keep me in touch about what the music is really about.
David

[exarctly]

I remember feeling this a lot during college. Always wanting to really show what you were capable of for faculty or other musicians...or girls you knew in the audience.
I do think it was time and opportunity that made the difference. But some practical things that helped. Deep breaths. Possibly stretching a little before performance, if you can. Practicing following changes. Meaning, playing in a way where maybe you will not play your best stuff, but focus on simply making sure you don;t get lost in the tune. Jam sessions would not be good yet in my opinion, unless they are newbie friendly. I wouldn't go to the hippest clubs downtown and sit in until maybe you are a little more comfortable. But find some safe environment to start in. Lessons, or a more modest friendly jam session. Or another friend at the same level, or slightly higher who is patient with you and encouraging.

More advice. You just may have to accept that you will not play your best for a while. Do not attempt anything difficult when performing until you know you are somewhat comfortable, warmed up and in the zone. Focus on playing with good time and in the changes. Learn to pay a lot of attention to the dynamics of the notes you play. You can sound good playing mostly chord tones and even simple rhythms if you can relax and play with good feel. Then as you get more comfortable, take more risks. Eventually, you just want to be in to the music and trying to play ideas that your mind is feeding you. Playing what you think and feel instead of letting your nerves and hands just move around. Wish I could go back to some of those early performances myself and try this stuff out that I learned along the way. Could have done a lot better, had I not tried so hard when performing without getting comfortable first. It's like a sport, if you are new to a position, you might first just try to get comfortable doing the fundamental safe things that are expected of you, and then as you get comfortable something heroic may just naturally thrust itself upon you because you just stayed in the right place at the right time. Then as you play more, you know that you have a certain level you can always play to, and you will have to decide how much of a risk taker you will be. Just some thoughts.

[chancho]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

First time is the hardest, 'cause you're thinking that it's supposed to be something. First time it's when you realize, hey it's OK, I just got 2 notes off and they weren't bad.
A lot of cities have places where you can sign up and get into an ensemble with people on your level. Do you have anything like that where you are?
I did that. And though I fell flat on my face plenty of times, I did find a horn player that I enjoyed the company of and we'd get together once a week, have a snack and play tunes. Each time it got better.
It's always a discovery process the first few times you get together. Think of it as clearing away the flotsam and jetsam of expectation. Then you get into the "hey I love this!" zone.
Don't stand on the edge too long! Jump in. Sound awful! And remember one thing you wanted to be able to do and go after that. You've got other people there to help you nail it. It doesn't get better than that.
Go for it. Report back from "the other side"!
David

Hmmmm, how would I go about that?...that sounds like a great idea

[vinlander]

I understand totally.
For my part I hate to play live even in front of a small audience unless I am truly at ease; one of the main reason I never did much band playing during the 30 years I have been playing.
I guess part of it is lack of confidence and of course the ego.
Problem with music like Jazz or even progressive rock in my case is that the bar is set very high and the audience is more critic (or we feel it) anyway.

[Four2theBar]

I have few thoughts on this based on having played for nearly 40 years (since age 13). For starters I've a few seasons in my adult life where I did not play much for 2 or 3 years. However, I've also had times, like the one I'm presently in where I've been shedding and taking lessons (including 5 years of formal Classical Guitar), etc. intensely for many years.

Off and on since my mid 20's I've done 'open jams', played in a couple of community/semi-pro Big Bands, and done smaller ensemble gigs and 'church' things too. On the whole my ratio of hours practicing alone-to-hours rehearsing, jamming, or gigging with others is at least 10-to-1.

I've also worked a pretty intense non-musical day gig for my entire adult life.

No doubt, some of us here probably have had similar experiences. My personal thinking is that one will ultimately play according to their musical 'vision' which is probably an extension of their own personality, life choices, etc.

Some folks gravitate toward "getting out there" and playing with others, even with a minimal skill level. If one is able to do this often enough and gets the right mentoring/coaching (also balanced with lots of personal practice) probably leads to the fastest musical growth path. The problem is that life's circumstances don't always provide this unless you are in music school full-time and don't have work/family committments.

In my case, I tend to develop my skill set until I"m are comfortable with playing at certain "level" before going out and performing with others. At that point I'll find a playing opportunity and work with it a while before realizing that I want to get to a higher skill level and that takes me into another intense season 'in the shed', etc. This has pretty much been my cycle for the past 30+ years. It also happens to be what fits best with the non-musical aspects of my life.

[EightString]

@Four2theBar:

I can relate. For instance, I didn't play jazz in front of or with anyone until I felt I had reached a certain level of competence and authenticity in the genre.

With decades of performance under my belt, it wasn't out of nervousness, it was more out of not wanting to waste anyone else's time or ears with my learning process.

[Four2theBar]

I definitely agree with prior comments about really learning changes from many tunes. I literally try to know them well enough that I can recite the changes bar-by-bar from memory without even having a guitar around. Of course knowing heads and being able to play them musically with authority and dynamics is also important.

It's also good to have worked out the chord changes in various inversions and positions. This uber necessary for becoming good at comping and it also provides the framework for arpeggiating through the changes. Most 7th chord forms on the guitar spread the voices out yielding built in octave displacement. Add the use of chormatic lower and chromatic or diatonic upper neighbors and you have some simple, accessible building blocks for soloing.

In my observation and on-going work this lays the groundwork for developing the ear to "play what you hear" and to transcribe classic solos and apply them to tunes being worked on.

Personally, I also think a real confidence builder (albeit one that requires a TON of work) is to memorize about 30 tunes, including the elements just mentioned and start out playing solo gigs. If your time is solid then you can start out comping a nice chordal intro, play the head expressively and then flow through the changes combining chordal fragments, walking/pedaling bass, melodic improv lines, and quotes from transcribed classic solos. This is not a substitute for also playing with other musicians, but will certain help build the fundamental skills for ensemble work.

At the end of the day as much as Jazz is about communication, interplay, and mutual support, it's also about individualism and personal confidence.