Tune your guitar by ear, not an electronic tuner.

[Nuff Said]

This is very simple.

If you tune a guitar by ear it helps to develop an ear for pitch.

Electronic Tuners don't give you this great ear training exercise, so my advice is do not use an electronic tuner.

Nuff Said

[edspyhill01]

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

This is very simple.

If you tune a guitar by ear it helps to develop an ear for pitch.

Electronic Tuners don't give you this great ear training exercise, so my advice is do not use an electronic tuner.

Nuff Said

I played in a Classical Guitar Orchestra. The people who tuned by ear where always out of tune with each other and out of tune with those of us who used electronic tuners. The guitars I & II were the tune-by-ear people and that made the whole group sound out of tune.

Most guitar players swear they have perfect pitch and accurate relative pitch, yet 99% can't tune a guitar by ear.

I've noticed, watching live music concerts on TV, that many rock guitarists have an electronic tuner either on the pedal board or back by the amps, and they use it between songs.

Keep that tuner clipped to the headstock or in the signal path, if only to check if the tuner is accurate.

[fep]

Maybe you've never played in a loud bar or restaurant?

Try to tune by ear in that situation.

I don't see that tuning a guitar does much for your ear... I did it for maybe 10 years before tuners became available at a reasonable price.

It's pretty easy you just listen for the pulses. That really doesn't do anything for important ear training tasks like interval recognition, chord quality recognition, chord progression recognition, melodic dictation, sight singing etc.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I probably spent a year of my life tuning guitars. Tuners are awesome. I think that when you're calibrated, there's more wiggle room for pitch shifts between strings/instruments.

"I'll give you my tuner when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!"-The NTA

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

There's a statistic about this, I'm sure. I was just listening to the radio, to a car safety expert, and he said that surveys show 85% of people think they are above average drivers.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

85% of people think they are above average drivers.

And 85% of guitar players that suck think they are good players. BTW, OP, that's like telling someone 100 years ago to throw away the tuning fork and use your ear. I play in a mandolin orchestra. Without tuners it's the nightmare you don't wake up from...

[JakeAcci]

I actually do think it's pretty great to develop a good ear for pitch, and to minimize reliance on the technology. Obviously in most performing situations it will be more practical to use a tuner, but it really is a good skill to hear intonation issues, etc.

My ear for pitch sux.

[Nuff Said]

Interesting replies, but you can't refute the fact that tuning by ear is a good ear training exercise, because you have to match the note pitches.

As a bonus, by regularly tuning by ear you start making fine adjustments as you play. I don't know if you have noticed but Guitars go out of tune quickly.

Yes, I agree, if you play frequently in loud environments a tuner is needed and over a long time you go deaf.

Nuff

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

Interesting replies, but you can't refute the fact that tuning by ear is a good ear training exercise, because you have to match the note pitches.

But trying to match an A at 220 to an A at 225 isn't the same kind of 'ear training' as trying to hear chord qualities, intervals, etc.

For example, one can have perfect pitch but not really understand harmonic context. They could hear a chord and go "oh, that was a D bass note and the piano played F#, C, E, and G#" but not necessarily, without training, understand the context or what to do with those notes.

I think having an ear for pitch is great, but I don't think it's the type of ear training that is usually emphasized for jazz - or for high level ear training curricula.

[Gramps]

Tuning without a tuner is good but there are times when the machine works better for me. (example: My computer fans pitch makes it impossible to tune in the same room)

Another example is when 4 or 5 people are all tuning by ear and their ears seem to telling them different things. A tuner can be a good arbitrator.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

...but you can't refute the fact that tuning by ear is a good ear training exercise.

+1

[Nuff Said]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I think having an ear for pitch is great, but I don't think it's the type of ear training that is usually emphasized for jazz - or for high level ear training curricula.

I'm all ears, what type of ear training do you suggest, the Bruce Arnold method?

My personal gripe, is that I think ear training is being neglected.

Being able to tune a guitar by ear is the ability to distinguish when two notes are the same, this has got to be a good thing for ear training surely.

Nuff

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

I'm all ears

Me too...

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

Being able to tune a guitar by ear is the ability to distinguish when two notes are the same, this has got to be a good thing for ear training surely.

To be able to hear whether two notes played simultaneously are either a half step or a unison is essential - and, to be crude, a beginner skill. But when you start getting to very tiny differences in pitch, like 2 hz or something, it's hard to hear it as accurate as the machines hear it.

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

I'm all ears, what type of ear training do you suggest, the Bruce Arnold method?

Well, I think everybody studying jazz should be able to hear...

all harmonic and melodic intervals, ascending and descending

root motion for basic chord progressions

recognize differences in chord types by ear - M, m, dim, +, M7, m7, 7, m7b5, dim7, etc.

common cadences (iii VI ii V, VI vi I, vi bVII7 I, etc) and telling them apart

recognizing subdivisions and rhythmic placements of a note played within the measure (that was on "1+," that was on "4," etc)

And from there the sky is the limit...how many consecutive notes, melodically, can we hold to? If within a scale...4? 5? 11? if atonally, 3? 4? The sky is the limit for all above categories. How many times would you (we/I, whatever) need to hear a standard like "Days of Wine and Roses" to figure out the harmonic progression, without an instrument, if you (we/I) hadn't played the tune before? Things like that...are useful. Being on a gig and having to figure out what the hell is going on rhythmically, harmonically, and melodically, is much more essential than hearing minute variations of pitch

I haven't taken a college level ear training course so somebody else could chime in with more detail, but I practice that stuff by transcribing and trying to sing and solfege as much of it as I can. It's all the transcribing that really does it, I think.

Now, again, like I've said, it's still great to be able to hear minute differences in pitch as best as possible. No doubt. Being able to tune by ear is great - I kind of suck at it. Bassists do it all the time. It's a great skill to be able to do it as accurately as a tuner. Hell I knew a bassist whose ears for pitch were probably better than most tuners, that was scary!

[cosmic gumbo]

When I tune by ear, it has nothing to do with matching two pitches, it has to do with hearing the intervals of the guitar tuning, and it is very good ear training. Ascending 4ths, major 3rd, descending 5ths, etc...and in big band we all use Bb to tune together.

[Nuff Said]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

When I tune by ear, it has nothing to do with matching two pitches, it has to do with hearing the intervals of the guitar tuning, and it is very good ear training. Ascending 4ths, major 3rd, descending 5ths, etc...and in big band we all use Bb to tune together.

Good point, I like to start with ensuring that all of the "As" on each string are in tune, there are lots of tuning methods, each can help develop the ears.

Because a lot of the Big Band songs are in Bb for the Brass players, it makes sense to tune to Bb.

The major thirds on adjacent strings are always a big problem for my ears, as we all know guitars are a compromise where intonation is concerned.

Thanks
Nuff

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

When I tune by ear, it has nothing to do with matching two pitches, it has to do with hearing the intervals of the guitar tuning, and it is very good ear training. Ascending 4ths, major 3rd, descending 5ths, etc...and in big band we all use Bb to tune together.

Sure, but even with a fifth we're still talking about getting a note to be 1.5 times the frequency of another note rather than 1.48 times the frequency.

Again, it's great, it's important, but I do think it's a different time of ear-work that is objectively less relevant than hearing a fifth vs a sixth.

[mr. beaumont]

I think being able to tune by ear is a good skill to have, but it's a very small part of what ear training actually entails.

I also think there's times where an electronic tuner is completely necessary.

[SEJazzer]

I'd recommend that all beginner guitarists get a tuner. They'll still learn to tune by ear (perhaps even faster if they know what an in-tune guitar should sound like) and they'll be able to spend more time playing music rather than tuning up.

Plus, I bet that if you could see how much of your life has been spent tuning, it would be quite frightening!

[Sailor]

I can definitely hear a perfect 4th, or 5th....rather use my Korg tuner any day

Sailor

[Billnc]

Had to tune for years before tuners were affordable. I remember grumpy people about them when they became affordable (30 dollars at 1984 prices?) I do think it is a necessary skill. I also can't for the life of me think why it is bad for a beginner to grab a tuner, tune up and HEAR an instrument in good tune. That has to have a great benefit to the ear also, a 4th grader hearing in tune. Pianists NEVER have to tune. Doesn't kill their ears.
Do they make Gore tex tuners?

[Atticus]

I find the main advantage to an electronic tuner is a perfect reference pitch, and it's about the same size as a pitch pipe anyway, so why not use the thing that can check me more accurately than my ear? Also, if you've ever tuned up in a room where the rest of the 20 piece band is warming up, being able to tune without requiring your ear is invaluable.

Should you learn to tune up without a tuner? Sure. Does that mean throwing away your tuner? Of course not.

[Buster Loaf]

all the great bands from yesteryear tuned without electronic tuners. it can be done.

[edspyhill01]

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

Interesting replies, but you can't refute the fact that tuning by ear is a good ear training exercise, because you have to match the note pitches.

As a bonus, by regularly tuning by ear you start making fine adjustments as you play. I don't know if you have noticed but Guitars go out of tune quickly.

Yes, I agree, if you play frequently in loud environments a tuner is needed and over a long time you go deaf.

Nuff

Ever use the Luthier tuning method?

TUNING THE D (4TH) STRING

Tune the D string with a A440 tuning fork playing the harmonic at the 7th fret. If the string is in unison with the fork one should hear no pulsating sounds, or beats.

TUNING THE B (2ND) STRING

Play the harmonic on the 4th string at the 7th fret (A). Then play A at the 10th fret of the 2nd string. When the two notes are in tune you should hear no beats. Test this by comparing the open D string to D on the 3rd fret of the second string.

TUNING THE E (1ST) STRING

Again, play the harmonic (A) on the 7th fret of the 4th string. The play A on the 5th fret of the first string. When they are in tune you will hear no pulsations. Test this by playing D at the 10th fret of the 1st string. You can also test this by comparing the open D string to the F# (2nd fret of the 1st string) where you will produce a pleasant 5 beats per second, an interval of a 10th.

TUNING THE 5TH STRING

An accurate tuning is done by playing the 7th fret harmonic (E) on the 5th string and adjusting the string to be in unison with the open tuned E (1st) string.

TUNING THE 6TH STRING

Tune the 6th string by playing the harmonic (B) at the 7th fret and compare it to the open B played on the 2nd string.

ACCEPTABLE CHORD TESTS

Use D major, E minor, and A major as test harmonies. If all three sound clean, you are ready to go. If not, retrace your tuning steps. Do not adjust the notes of the chords. Also, once the D string is adjusted to the tuning fork, do not change it.

[pauln]

Yeah! I love a tuning thread; it is so fundamental and yet so many know little about it.

In my experience tuning MUST be done by ear. A tuner will get you started, but not close enough to finish because...

1] The perception of pitch goes sharp with increasing volume level but not the same amount for high and low pitches. This means that tuning should ideally occur at stage volume with all instruments playing (like a sound check). This is why orchestras play that familiar song at the beginning of each concert that starts with the oboe and then everyone come in louder and louder playing a big giant chord for about 20 seconds.

2] The perception of pitch goes sharp at the lower frequencies and flat at the higher frequencies of the overall range. You have to slightly flatten your low end and slightly sharpen your high end to sound in tune across the whole range - this is sometimes called "sweetened tuning" - piano tuners are well aware of this phenomenon. Some of the new tuners have this feature, some can store the pitches of your perfectly sweetened tuned guitar as a tuning setting for later tuning.

3] On a guitar, the tuning of the strings (variations in string length) changes with temperature. If you tune the guitar with cold strings (even with a tuner) perfectly and then begin to play it you will go flat immediately. The guitar needs to be tuned with the strings warm (like they will be while you are playing it). A common problem is when a guitarist tunes his cold guitar and goes flat on stage. He may also tune his warm guitar after a set with a tuner (so it would be in tune for the next set when the guitar is warm) but checks it again later when it is cold and sees the guitar shows it is sharp, then corrects and it is out of warn tune again... This is a huge effect. Plug in your tuner and tune the guitar cold, then just run your hands over the fretboard and look again - you will be flat, but in a few more seconds you will be back up to pitch as the string cools. You want it to work the opposite way - in tune when warm, sharp by the tuner when cold, warm and in tune again when you play...

4] There are still guitarists trying to tune using the seventh fret harmonics. Those harmonics are Pythagorean and must NEVER be used in tuning the guitar. They don't match the equal temperament of the guitar tuning. Fifth fret harmonic does match; so does 12th fret harmonic.

So, what to do... you need a method of tuning that is fast for both verification and correction, can be done on a noisy stage even with distracting house music playing, that takes into account the variable mechanics of the guitar (the effects of string action fret distance, finger board relief curvature, and the different ways fat wound strings and plain strings relate length to pitch, etc).

5] How to tune
Tune the high E string to E (use a tuner, piano, ideally during sound check at volume
Match the other strings' E's to the high E
Match B string at 5th fret (E)
Match G string at 9th fret (E)
Match D string at 14th fret (E)
Match A string at 18th fret (E)
Match low E string at 5th fret harmonic (E)
If this results in a change to the high E string, correct and redo the cycle.
Then, you may need to flatten the low E and maybe the A just a little.
May need to sharpen the high E and maybe the B string slightly.
Throughout all of this, keep your hands running over the strings to keep them warm.
Since you are listening and matching only one pitch, noisy distractions (including background music) have little effect.
With practice you can verify tuning on stage in about two seconds, a few more seconds to make a correction.
As you can see, the tuner plays an insignificant role if any (getting started).
You should be able to tell when you are out of tune when you are playing.
If this is difficult, just wait for minor chords and listen to those; the major third is a quirky interval because of the way equal temperament works - minor chords are the easiest to tell if your tuning is going out.

5] Some bass players tune their instruments a bit sharp because they hear the sustain and decays of their notes drop slightly in pitch. This causes the attacks to sound sharp. A listening guitarist may be paying more attention to the front end of the note to quickly establish the pitch for harmonic and melodic reasons. Just something to look out for, or keep in mind. I've never found a bassist who did this that would adjust his tuning for correct attack pitch.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by SEJazzer

I'd recommend that all beginner guitarists get a tuner. They'll still learn to tune by ear (perhaps even faster if they know what an in-tune guitar should sound like) and they'll be able to spend more time playing music rather than tuning up.

Plus, I bet that if you could see how much of your life has been spent tuning, it would be quite frightening!

Absolutely. I wish I could have had all that is available now when I started. In addition to not having a tuner at all, the guitar I played had horrible intonation. I think the strings were an inch high off the fretboard at the 12th fret. You can get a better intonated guitar at walmart today than the $300 guitars we sold 15 years ago. Great days to be a beginner.

Originally Posted by edspyhill01

Ever use the Luthier tuning method?

TUNING THE D (4TH) STRING

Tune the D string with a A440 tuning fork playing the harmonic at the 7th fret. If the string is in unison with the fork one should hear no pulsating sounds, or beats.

That's cool, but I'm not sure if that really applies to the kind of ear training that the OP was talking about. Is "hearing the beats" really an ear-training skill whose development justifies encouraging players not to use tuners, or are we talking about recognizing pitch relationships other than the mechanical recognition of unison pitches? You could teach anyone to do that, and I don't know that it would make them a better musician.

[Gramps]

Originally Posted by Buster Loaf

all the great bands from yesteryear tuned without electronic tuners. it can be done.

It can be done but it wasn't always done. There are parts of "The Quintet: Jazz at Massey Hall" where their intonation bugs me and that was Powell, Mingus and Parker. The issue could have been placement of musicians (unable to hear each other) or out of tune piano (not something they could change quickly) but some of the intonation sets my teeth on edge. I don't have the recording available to me right now so I can't tell you which songs bothered me the most intonation wise.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by edspyhill01

Ever use the Luthier tuning method?

I though tuning to harmonics (like at the 7th fret) was a bad idea because we aren't using just temperament.

[frankiemachine]

Originally Posted by Gramps

It can be done but it wasn't always done. There are parts of "The Quintet: Jazz at Massey Hall" where their intonation bugs me and that was Powell, Mingus and Parker. The issue could have been placement of musicians (unable to hear each other) or out of tune piano (not something they could change quickly) but some of the intonation sets my teeth on edge. I don't have the recording available to me right now so I can't tell you which songs bothered me the most intonation wise.

Indeed. And these were world class musicians. Live recordings of lesser bands from the pre-electronic tuner era often reveal bad tuning issues, even more so in rock/pop than in jazz. Studio editing and overdubs of live recordings to remove the most obvious problems used to be standard practice. Listen to say, Mick Taylor playing on some of the Rolling Stones live recordings to get a sense of how even a hugely talented player could get lost intonation wise.

I also started playing in in the pre-electronic tuner age, and we tuned by ear because we had to. The first time I became aware of a band using electronic tuners on stage was at a Joe Jackson gig and it was like a revelation: a loud, guitar-based band that played in tune and with perfect intonation all night. The tuners were large and presumably still expensive. Joe is a hugely gifted musician who studied composition at the Royal Academy so there's nothing wrong with his ears, but he obviously immediately spotted an advantage in electronic tuning.

Whether tuning your guitar by ear helps ear training is a moot point, but if you think it helps there's nothing preventing you practising by tuning your guitar by ear at home. If you're playing to other people most of us are still probably wise to check against an objective measuring device. You can go to a gig nowadays knowing that a band of even less than stellar musicians will at least be in tune. I have no desire to return to the days when that wasn't true.

[cosmic gumbo]

I know this much about myself. By the time evening rolls around, which is usually when rehearsals or gigs happen, my ear is too fatigued by the normal everyday sounds in my life, to be able to trust it to be precise enough to tune by ear. So while I do have the skills to tune by ear, I will use a tuner when my ears are tired. That's a reality I have to accept.