Tune your guitar by ear, not an electronic tuner.

[edspyhill01]

One other reason I use electronic tuners is acoustic guitars break in and age in one tuning, concert pitch. Not sure if this applies to solid body guitars.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I though tuning to harmonics (like at the 7th fret) was a bad idea because we aren't using just temperament.

That's what people say, but IMHO, the AGL method works very well.

[Reg]

I'm a fan of tuners... At least it will get you close. Most of my jazz boxes change within 30 min. so unless I'm early enough to let my guitar adjust to where ever I'm playing, I tune as I play. Most of my jazz guitars aren't perfect anyway, the same with Pianos... you pretty much just go with the piano, if on gig.
If I tune my higher strings first... and there's any real adjustment to the lower strings, which changes the tension... I'll need to adjust... I usually use tuner to get open strings close and then fine tune...
I gig with horns etc... sometimes their intonations so far out... it almost doesn't matter. I'm bending strings the entire time we're playing lines together... just the way it is.
If you play all the time, your ears will be in tune, if you don't... they won't. So yea... you need both methods of tuning... Reg

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

That's what people say, but IMHO, the AGL method works very well.

The 7th fret harmonics are the fifth of the open string, they work with our tuning system. It's the fourth fret (the maj3) that isn't congruent.

I wasn't sure so I just double checked with my Cleartune app. The seventh fret harmonics match the open strings.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

The 7th fret harmonics are the fifth of the open string, they work with our tuning system. It's the fourth fret (the maj3) that isn't congruent.

I wasn't sure so I just double checked with my Cleartune app. The seventh fret harmonics match the open strings.

Hmmm... In the overtone series, the harmonic at the 7th fret would be 3 times the frequency of the open string. So a fifth over the open string would be 3/2 times the open string's frequency.

In equal temperament, the ratio of two notes a half step apart is by definition the 12th root of 2, so a fifth, being 7 half steps higher will be:

2^(7/12) times the frequency of the root, and that number is approximately 1.498307

That's close to 3/2, but the question is, is it close enough? I can't trust my ears. Anyhowdy, for fans of Science, it's not exactly the same as the overtone on an ideal string.

[pauln]

Here is why you must not use the seventh harmonics for tuning the guitar...

The fifth on the low E string you want for tuning is B=123.48Hz
But using the fifth at the seventh fret harmonic gives 123.62Hz
The Pythagorean fifth is sharp... by about 2 cents (1.96).

The seventh fret harmonic is a Pythagorean fifth, but the guitar is an equal temperament instrument that uses equal temperament fifths; the harmonic at the seventh fret is not the same note as the harmonic at the fifth fret on the string next to it. In addition, if you use this method tuning from low to high strings in sequence, the 2 cent sharp error progresses with each string tuned.

The 12 pitches of Pythagorean tuning are formed by ratios of the tonic...
1:1, 256:243, 9:8, 32:27, 81:64, 4:3, 729:512, 3:2, 128:81, 27:16, 16:9, 243:128, 2:1

The equal temperament tuning uses a constant increment of 2^(1/12) or two raised to the one twelfth power = 1.05946309 ratio for each subsequent pitch to the previous one.

The Pythagorean fifth ratio of tonic to fifth is 3:2 = 1.5
The Equal temperament fifth is the seventh chromatic increment of subsequent multiplication by the constant increment, so [2^(1/12)]^7 =1.4983

To see the difference, here is an example.

The low E on the guitar is 82.41Hz

The Equal temperament fifth frequency for B is 82.41*1.4983=123.48Hz (123.475)

The Pythagorean fifth B is 82.41*1.5=123.62Hz (123.615)

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by pauln

Here is why you must not use the seventh harmonics for tuning the guitar...

The fifth on the low E string you want for tuning is B=123.48Hz
But using the fifth at the seventh fret harmonic gives 123.62Hz
The Pythagorean fifth is sharp... by about 2 cents (1.96).

The seventh fret harmonic is a Pythagorean fifth, but the guitar is an equal temperament instrument that uses equal temperament fifths; the harmonic at the seventh fret is not the same note as the harmonic at the fifth fret on the string next to it. In addition, if you use this method tuning from low to high strings in sequence, the 2 cent sharp error progresses with each string tuned.

The 12 pitches of Pythagorean tuning are formed by ratios of the tonic...
1:1, 256:243, 9:8, 32:27, 81:64, 4:3, 729:512, 3:2, 128:81, 27:16, 16:9, 243:128, 2:1

The equal temperament tuning uses a constant increment of 2^(1/12) or two raised to the one twelfth power = 1.05946309 ratio for each subsequent pitch to the previous one.

The Pythagorean fifth ratio of tonic to fifth is 3:2 = 1.5
The Equal temperament fifth is the seventh chromatic increment of subsequent multiplication by the constant increment, so [2^(1/12)]^7 =1.4983

To see the difference, here is an example.

The low E on the guitar is 82.41Hz

The Equal temperament fifth frequency for B is 82.41*1.4983=123.48Hz (123.475)

The Pythagorean fifth B is 82.41*1.5=123.62Hz (123.615)

That's very interesting Paul. I noticed the two cents sharp with my app but I figured it wasn't significant. Makes a lot of sense, as I often have trouble tuning the whole guitar with harmonics. Thanks!

[derek]

Imo, tuning without some sort of tuner is like practicing without a metronome. While I can tune my guitar by ear, we all need a reference note to start of course. And while I think my internal time is solid, a metronome proves me wrong more times than I would rather admit.

Developing our internal sense of pitch and time are important, but eliminating tuners and metronomes reminds me of the panic from teachers in the 70's when they swore allowing students to have calculators would ruin them for math. Umm, no.

[Drumbler]

Tuning by ear is fine as long as you have an accurate reference pitch.

Without a reference pitch you can get your guitar in relative tune to itself but that's where it ends.

So you need some device to get that reference pitch, i.e, tuning fork, piano, pitch pipe, electronic tuner.

I do not see much ear training benefit in tuning your guitar by ear.

[Nuff Said]

I've just bought a Peterson Strobe Electronic tuner, marvellous device, I should have bought one 35 years ago when I first got a guitar, according to this tuner I've been playing out of tune all these years, interesting that nobody has noticed.

Nuff

[RayC]

If I'm in a quiet room I like to tune by listening to the 4ths. A tempered 4th in the range of a guitar should beat slowly on the high side (outside) of dead center and increase slightly as you move up in pitch. If there's noise in the room I use a tuner. I've never tried a Peterson Strobe, I'll bet they're nice.

Ray

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

On thing that wasn't mentioned so far is: the Snark clip-on tuner. It's cheap and works well, so there's no reason not to own a tuner.

[EightString]

Wait, is this another "perfect pitch" thread?

[John Link]

I once worked with a guy who refused to use a turner and he was always out with the rest of the band. When the band leader finally confronted him about it the guy said to the leader that he just heard differiently than he did. The band leader walked away in perplexity.

[nakim55]

I have not read all the post's yet, but I am wondering, if your intonation is straight at the 12th fret (harmonics to open strings), & you use a tunerm for the open strings, why is it when you tune by ear at the 5th fret (comparing pitches) & use a tuner to check them, every string wants yo go a little sharp? Man, this has been perplexing me for awhile, on all 3 of my guitars.

[pauln]

nakim55, the string when open E and harmonic at 12th fret E is at a certain tension and string length.
When you depress the string at the fifth or any other fret, the tension is increased. When you compare two strings tuned perfectly when open or with 12th fret harmonics, as soon as you play any fretted note on them they go slightly sharp because of the increased tension moving from the string height action to the fret (and neck relief curvature contributes as well). If you compare the open string and the fretted string there will be a slight difference.

This is why I like the method of tuning E's fretted on all strings (5th harmonic on the low E string) using the open high E string as the reference. It takes into account some of the effects of action, relief, and so some degree the difference in the way wound strings relate pitch to string width to plain strings...

[nakim55]

That makes sense, thank you.

[Nuff Said]

Originally Posted by nakim55

why is it when you tune by ear at the 5th fret (comparing pitches) & use a tuner to check them, every string wants yo go a little sharp?

Like most Jazzers, I don't play many open non-fretted strings, so I tune the guitar using only fretted notes.

Nuff Said

[fep]

Originally Posted by pauln

nakim55, the string when open E and harmonic at 12th fret E is at a certain tension and string length.
When you depress the string at the fifth or any other fret, the tension is increased. When you compare two strings tuned perfectly when open or with 12th fret harmonics, as soon as you play any fretted note on them they go slightly sharp because of the increased tension moving from the string height action to the fret (and neck relief curvature contributes as well). If you compare the open string and the fretted string there will be a slight difference.

This is why I like the method of tuning E's fretted on all strings (5th harmonic on the low E string) using the open high E string as the reference. It takes into account some of the effects of action, relief, and so some degree the difference in the way wound strings relate pitch to string width to plain strings...

Where did you get that information?

Aren't the frets set in a way so that won't happen? I can't imagine that they wouldn't be.

How do you set your intonation... so the harmonic and the fretted note at the 12ths fret will be the same. Right? That's how I do it.

There is an optimal string height for intonation, Ibanez in their manual for the guitar I have tells you how high you should set the action and the amount of relief.

[pauln]

It may be that fine guitar makers in the past and present adjust the metric for the frets to account for action, relief, and anticipated string attributes.

The vast majority of manufactured guitars are fretted using the equal temperament fret spacing as a print template from the math equation without adjustment. About a generation ago most guitar makers began compensating the distance between the nut and first fret by moving the nut very slightly closer to the first fret to mitigate the sharpness of notes played at the first fret (even classical guitars picked this up). This was probably the first well known and widely practiced attempt in a series of departures from pure mathematical fret spacing, but subsequent departures were rare and "peculiar" and specific to particular makers.

The development of the bridge end took a similar and much more visible path from "one big angled saddle" for all six strings, to compensated versions with a variable ridge (still one piece), them multi-piece drop-in segments comprising compensated bridges (classical guitar), and individual saddles for jazz and others.

After intonation, you have to ask yourself - if the nut is straight, why is the bridge angled so as the length of the high and lows E strings are clearly different... yet the frets are all straight, too? The lengths of string above and below the 12th fret can not be equal for both the low and high E strings if the saddles are not straight as well. To even approach doing it right the frets would need to be slanted like the bridge - if the nut is straight and the bridge slanted, the 12th fret would need to be half that slant, and all the other frets differentially slanted with respect to the 12th... it all gets kind of crazy.

FEP, what I mean is that if the frets were placed so there would be "no problems", that would be some crazy slant fretted guitar (and there are some)!

The thing is, putting straight frets on a string instrument on the face of it seems to provide more precision to the pitches, but with enough measurement and careful listening it is clear that an un-fretted instrument played properly will be closer to perfection. Just repositioning the straight frets slightly is not enough to compensate unless you slant them as well...

Yet, in the real world of stage performance, if the guitar has fresh strings, good settings for relief, action, and intonation there is little problem - especially if using big fat flat wounds.

I think much of the actual problems folks have with guitars comes from trying to use super light gauge strings which tend to be much more susceptible to all the mechanics leading to problems.

[fep]

Paul,

If that's all true, given you're not someone who spends most of their time playing in the first position, then wouldn't it make the most sense to tune to fretted notes in the middle of the range of where you play?

For me I'd say the sixth or seventh fret.

So if I use the sixth fret then I'll tune the 1st string to the Bb fretted at the 6th fret, the 2nd string to the F at the 6th fret etc.

[ronjazz]

Tuning with a machine is a good start. Generally, different keys require different adjustments for solo guitar using open strings. Playing jazz without open strings one can find an effective compromise that doesn't need too much retuning. Note that as you hold the guitar, your body warms it, and it goes sharp, especially the treble strings. Stage lighting will have the same effect. Playing outdoors, if the sun goes behind a cloud, you'll go flat. For those situations, a headstock tuner is a great way to avoid breaking up the flow of the show, or a tuner built into your effects pedals, if you use them.

[pauln]

FEP,
The method I recommend for tuning does incorporate using the higher frets.

I set the high E first, then match E's on the rest to it:
match the B string at the 5th
G at the 9th
D@14th
A@19th
Low E harmonic@5th

This somewhat takes into account the effects of relief, action, and the different ways thin and fat strings relate pitch to string length.

It is not perfect, but it works best for someone playing all over the neck.
For playing strictly cowboy chords, a whole different approach employing sweetened tuning is needed.

It is also one of the fastest ways to verify tuning (takes about 2 seconds on stage), takes only a couple more to adjust, and with one pitch to match it can be done even on a noisy stage with background music...

Ronjazz,
Don't get me started! So many things effect the real time tuning of a guitar. One of the biggest is the temperature variation from just sliding your fingers over the strings. Plug in a tuner and see; a guitar has to be tuned when the strings are warm (like they will be when playing it). This is another reason I blame super light gauge strings - they change pitch the most with a change in temperature.