Getting over the frustration

chancho · #1 10-18-2011, 10:55 PM

I really need help fellas cause I find myself getting closer and closer to just selling all the gear and just listening to the greats to their thing.

I have a lack an abundance of study guides that are recommended on this site, Ive joined an on-line guitar study course, and have a teacher I see 2x monthly. I still am unable to play Autumn Leaves the whole way through, still unable to explain chord theory to you, progressions and stuff and still stump on strings when practicing scales....

Ive tried sticking to one thing and the progress is just incredibly sloww.

Please tell me what it was like for you...............is there still hope? I hope so. I really love the art of being a musician. Love how jazz takes me on a journey and brings me back, and when it doesn"t it's just as exciting. Love how there are soo many options to play a melody and want soo much to be a part of it

oldane · #2 10-19-2011, 04:30 AM

I have been playing for more than 45 years, and I am nowhere near "there" yet. I started out as a teenager wanting to become the new Charlie Parker, but as years has passed the ambitions have gradually been adapted to my abilities. I have accepted that I am no great artist - if any artist at all. My "project" in later years has been working on rhythm guitar in the style of Freddie Green to achieve a reasonable level of "workmanship". In that kind of playing, there is a lot of exactly that - "workmanship" - rather than "art". But it is nevertheless very satisfying for me - more so than repeated disappointed "artistic" ambitions. It's nice to hear other people say "you keep good time for us", "How do you manage not to clash with the pianist?", "you got a nice sound" etc. It's nice to feel myself clicking into the groove of the rest of the rhythm section - rather than making myself heard over them.

What I want to say with this, is that learning to play guitar is a life long project, and you'll never be done with the learning. You will likely also in time find your niche, your speciality - you'll have to, because nobody can't possibly do it all.

Also, I think that one "secret" is to know your limitation. In photography, you can be known as a good photographer, if you don't show all those bad shots to others. The same way with music. When playing with others, play what you can do well, and leave out what you are not good at. But by all means do some serious woodshedding at home to become better at what you are not good at now.

Blues man John Lee Hooker was not by any means a guitar virtuoso. But what he did play, he played well, effective and very consistent with the style of his music, so it ended up sounding good and becoming a classic sound.

Art Tatum was once asked how he managed not to play any mistakes. And he answered "Oh, I make mistakes all the time. But I cover them up." And we all know that Art Tatum was arguably the greatest virtuoso jazz has known.

Gramps · #3 10-19-2011, 06:23 AM

It takes me lots of repetition to get things down but I know I'm playing different stuff than I did 4 months ago. Try to remember what you could play half a year ago and see if you've progressed since then.

You mentioned playing ALeaves, chord theory/progressions and scales. (chord theory/progressions, arps and scales are different sides of the same coin). Spend 5 to 15 minutes with each of those things everyday and see if you havn't gotten better in 2 weeks.

Chord theory at is simplest: Chords are made up of different notes of the scale. If you play those notes together its a chord, if you play them individually its an arpeggio.
1,3,5=major triad (easy peasy)
1,b3,5=minor triad
etc.

This isn't rocket science and you can do it. Just work at it and give yourself permission to progress at your own rate.

Bill C · #4 10-19-2011, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gramps

Just work at it and give yourself permission to progress at your own rate.

This is the solution to the problem. Think of it as an ongoing process rather than a journey from A to B.

hwy145 · #5 10-19-2011, 07:06 AM

I'm a new member here, and I've been playing seriously for about a year (casually for more). It is easy to focus on what is right in front of you instead of looking at the big picture. Theory-wise, in just a year, I'm so far advanced from what I was this time last year, and I'm amazed at some of the things that my hands can do. BUT, I'm only aware of these things, because I'm forcing myself to be optimistic. Take a step back, and look at your progress and see what you've accomplished instead of what you haven't. I've got a long way to go, but what is the hurry. Enjoy the ride!

I just started working on jazz guitar with my teacher, and the amount of information is overwhelming, but I keep pressing forward with little steps, and I always see minor achievements...

vittigo · #6 10-19-2011, 08:35 AM

Recording yourself is a good mean to see to progress You have made. I think You can be surprised when You will get back to this recording after let's say a half year.

To be honest sometimes I'm impressed how good i've played at past, and how much i like it now. But this is another point not to rant but rather to keep practicing and have fun of now state

Billnc · #7 10-19-2011, 08:39 AM

How long have you been playing and what is your total hours practice?

Always make sure you have a means of expression musically, if it's not there for jazz yet, do some blues or something else you like. I've found some students are ALWAYS working. They never have stuff to just play. What you 'just play' will not be nearly as advanced as what you are studying. This is a fact of life.

fep · #8 10-19-2011, 09:24 AM

I have a friend who has made a couple attempts at guitar but he just doesn't have the focus and patience for it. He put in maybe 10 hours over a 2 months period and then gave it up. That just didn't work, people like that won't learn an instrument.

But I'm assuming that's not you.

For me guitar has become my way of relaxing... sort of like sipping a glass a wine. I just really enjoy it, I can get a kick out of just listening to the sound of a well placed chord. I do like to improve, but having an attitude of just having fun with it... well that just makes it much more enjoyable.

Have fun and don't be too hard on yourself.

brad4d8 · #9 10-19-2011, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vittigo

Recording yourself is a good mean to see to progress You have made. I think You can be surprised when You will get back to this recording after let's say a half year.

I agree, I always recommended this when I taught, both guitar and English to non-native speakers.
Brad

Sandor · #10 10-19-2011, 10:54 AM

Nobody's comments will help without knowing how much time you practice, and what your goals are(have fun or play gigs occasionally etc) But generally, if you practice only say an hour or two a day you need to stick to a few things at a time. If you try to do too much in too small a time frame nothing will get learned.

I know you said you tried focusing on one thing for a long time, but what do you consider a long time? Half an hour, two hours? If you meant in terms of weeks, how much time a day?

I'm guessing that time is the problem, coupled with bad teachers/ resource choice. Autumn leaves is probably the easiest Standard there is, so there must a problem with your practice focus.

By the way, which online lessons are you taking?

pingu · #11 10-19-2011, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Please tell me what it was like for you...............is there still hope? I
hope so. I really love the art of being a musician. Love how jazz takes me on
a journey and brings me back, and when it doesn"t it's just as exciting. Love
how there are soo many options to play a melody and want soo much to be a part
of it

These are the normal ups and down man ......
everyone gets em

in a few days you'll get your motivation back for sure
you've got the love of Jazz , thats it !
thats all you need

Sandor · #12 10-19-2011, 01:47 PM

oops, i misread. thought you said a long time when you didn't. My comments still stand though. Give us some more info and we can help more.

Shadow of the Sun · #13 10-19-2011, 10:35 PM

While it's not a jazz example, it might give you hope.

When Chuck Schuldiner first started playing guitar, he had a teacher for a year. In that year, he didn't even learn how to play "Happy Birthday".

Once he got an electric guitar and worked on stuff that he enjoyed, he progressed until he became the inventor of death metal.

Hell, Charlie Parker was an absolutely horrible player when he started. He got laughed of the bandstand, and had a drummer through his cymbals at him to get him off the stage. He put in some hard slog, and, well...

He became Charlie Parker.

Lack of progress now doesn't mean much. Plenty of influential musicians were not particularly good when they started out. Just keep working.

KeyLime · #14 10-19-2011, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chancho

I really need help fellas cause I find myself getting closer and closer to just selling all the gear and just listening to the greats to their thing.

I've felt that way too chancho, wow so many times! Don't sell your gear com-padre. Just take off the pressure. Not everyone can be Joe Pass or Pat Martino.

Bet you can play a couple of cool things. Just groove and play along with recordings and try to pick up licks. Let them inspire you.

whatswisdom · #15 10-19-2011, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chancho

Please tell me what it was like for you...............is there still hope? I hope so. I really love the art of being a musician.

Wow! That's the most honest and straight up post I've read since joining earlier this year. I give you a lot of credit, dude. Bottom line is enjoyment. For me, I play every chance I get and, thanks in no small part to this great resourse, I am progressing. There's so many great contributers here that are nice, helpful, and patient with questions from all levels. I think patience is something we miss a lot of the time. It's such a necessity when it comes to a lifelong discipline like good music. Be patient. Enjoy what you can play and sing everything you can't--then you'll find that you can. Heads, licks, scales, arps, etc; while you play, ala Benson; while you're driving; walking. Everything is rhythm. There's no closer you can get to it than that. Hang in, keep your gear and good luck...

brwnhornet59 · #16 10-19-2011, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu

These are the normal ups and down man ......
everyone gets em

in a few days you'll get your motivation back for sure
you've got the love of Jazz , thats it !
thats all you need

I agree 100%!!!

This is great advice. Just keep plugging away and more than anything try and have fun. If the tune you are working on is not fun, find something to play that you know, that is fun. When you get frustrated go to that for a few minuets and recapture that joy. I always learn the fastest and have the best retention when I am inspired by something that has beauty. Not just sounding pretty, but for me symmetry and rhythm play a large role in this. Also when you get one of those "AHA!!!" moments. That is as good as it gets. IMHO

whatswisdom · #17 10-20-2011, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

...find something to play that you know, that is fun...recapture that joy.

Yeah, man! How about a 12-bar blues! Just go to where you can find your comfort level--and don't forget to sing those lines...

jmstritt · #18 10-20-2011, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun

When Chuck Schuldiner first started playing guitar...

The guy from the band Death? Wow I wouldn't have expected that on the Jazz Guitar Forum. ;-) That was pretty cool. I like the Death album with him AND Andy La Raque on it, cool stuff!

But yes, do not give up just slow it down and work on one thing at a time. I went to a performing arts high school and the guitar 'teacher,' there gave me an F for a semester, because as a 10th grader I couldn't read the head to Joy Spring. Through an odd series of events, I ended up doing a gig with him about a year ago that was 2 guitars drums, bass, alto and tenor sax (Wierd line up I know....). We were calling standards basically and a few of the alto player's original tunes. Well I called Joy Spring and smoked his ass! Payback is a bitch ;-)

The point to that story is to not get discouraged. Just because something seems impossible now doesn't mean that it always will! :-)

pauln · #19 10-21-2011, 04:27 AM

Everyone that plays the guitar feels frustration. The real "secret" to making progress is to understand that frustration is a valuable message - it is trying to tell you something, and subsequent progress depends on whether you get that message and understand how to interpret it.

There are two fundamental sources of frustration, and what you do next depends on which kind it is. At any point in a guitarist's progress, he should have some sense of the balance between his hands and his mind. If the development of one gets ahead of the other too much, the result will be frustration. It is important to identify which way the imbalance has fallen in order to address it properly. Maximum progress comes from keeping both hand and mind moving forward together.

One kind of frustration is when you have musical ideas in your head, you are full of creative thoughts, you hear what you want to sound like, etc... your mind is ready to go... but your hands don't cooperate. Your hands and fingers won't execute what you want your mind to hear. You hear something in your mind that sounds great but when you play it the thing sounds lame, limp, lifeless, full of mistakes, or you can't even get it sound close to what you want. This frustration is telling you the message, "Your mind is more advanced than your hands. Work on developing your hands. Play a lot, play anything at all, spend time with the guitar and just play notes, chords, scales, songs... exercises, anything. A couple of lessons might be good just to ensure you are not developing any bad habits, but mostly just work to catch up your hands to your mind."
Imagine being a great jazz pianist and then deciding to give the guitar a try... your mind would be so far ahead of your hands (on the guitar)... so what would you work on developing? Or imagine even a fantastic top jazz pro guitarist switching his guitar to play left handed - he has the musical knowledge in his mind, and the comprehensive knowledge of the guitar, but he will be unable to play because his hand is just starting out again.

The other kind of frustration is when your hands and fingers are amazing; you can play very fast and clean, hard chords, everything is effortless and easy... but your mind is short on ideas and while what you play is technically well executed, it is also drab and boring, uninspired, disconnected, maybe kind of goofy sounding. This frustration is telling you the message, "Your hands are ahead of your mind; spend more time listening to music, other instruments, thinking about theory concepts and ear training (or taking a few lessons to jump start that). Go hear some concerts."
Imagine you were a guitarist that had only played speed metal solos for decades and never tried jazz, then one day decided to give it a try. Your hands would be ready for anything, but your ear for jazz would need lots of listening to begin to hear how to play jazz sounds.

Anyway, I hope you see that frustration is actually a very important message about what needs focus to make progress. It is what keeps you on course, and the better you get the more difficult it becomes to do that - so take advantage of the clarity of that frustration now while you can! Identifying what aspects need study and practice is a huge step in the forward direction. Examine your playing and how you feel about it to determine which, your hand or your head, is a few steps behind. If you can't tell yet, check with a teacher or some other guitarists to help figure out which way it is, and get ideas on how to focus on that...

I hope this idea helps you keep going!

Franklin52 · #20 10-21-2011, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauln

Everyone that plays the guitar feels frustration. The real "secret" to making progress is to understand that frustration is a valuable message - it is trying to tell you something, and subsequent progress depends on whether you get that message and understand how to interpret it.

There are two fundamental sources of frustration, and what you do next depends on which kind it is. At any point in a guitarist's progress, he should have some sense of the balance between his hands and his mind. If the development of one gets ahead of the other too much, the result will be frustration. It is important to identify which way the imbalance has fallen in order to address it properly. Maximum progress comes from keeping both hand and mind moving forward together.

One kind of frustration is when you have musical ideas in your head, you are full of creative thoughts, you hear what you want to sound like, etc... your mind is ready to go... but your hands don't cooperate. Your hands and fingers won't execute what you want your mind to hear. You hear something in your mind that sounds great but when you play it the thing sounds lame, limp, lifeless, full of mistakes, or you can't even get it sound close to what you want. This frustration is telling you the message, "Your mind is more advanced than your hands. Work on developing your hands. Play a lot, play anything at all, spend time with the guitar and just play notes, chords, scales, songs... exercises, anything. A couple of lessons might be good just to ensure you are not developing any bad habits, but mostly just work to catch up your hands to your mind."
Imagine being a great jazz pianist and then deciding to give the guitar a try... your mind would be so far ahead of your hands (on the guitar)... so what would you work on developing? Or imagine even a fantastic top jazz pro guitarist switching his guitar to play left handed - he has the musical knowledge in his mind, and the comprehensive knowledge of the guitar, but he will be unable to play because his hand is just starting out again.

The other kind of frustration is when your hands and fingers are amazing; you can play very fast and clean, hard chords, everything is effortless and easy... but your mind is short on ideas and while what you play is technically well executed, it is also drab and boring, uninspired, disconnected, maybe kind of goofy sounding. This frustration is telling you the message, "Your hands are ahead of your mind; spend more time listening to music, other instruments, thinking about theory concepts and ear training (or taking a few lessons to jump start that). Go hear some concerts."
Imagine you were a guitarist that had only played speed metal solos for decades and never tried jazz, then one day decided to give it a try. Your hands would be ready for anything, but your ear for jazz would need lots of listening to begin to hear how to play jazz sounds.

Anyway, I hope you see that frustration is actually a very important message about what needs focus to make progress. It is what keeps you on course, and the better you get the more difficult it becomes to do that - so take advantage of the clarity of that frustration now while you can! Identifying what aspects need study and practice is a huge step in the forward direction. Examine your playing and how you feel about it to determine which, your hand or your head, is a few steps behind. If you can't tell yet, check with a teacher or some other guitarists to help figure out which way it is, and get ideas on how to focus on that...

I hope this idea helps you keep going!

+1

Well spoken, thanks for taking your time to post these tips.

Gramps · #21 10-21-2011, 06:37 AM

The OP seems to be gone.

chancho · #22 10-21-2011, 07:55 AM

Wow! Im genuinely impressed with the amount of responses and kinds of feedback. Thank You All Very Much!

Im gonna try to respond to what sticks out from your responses....Nobody's comments will help without knowing how much time you practice, and what your goals are(have fun or play gigs occasionally etc)
Guilty ! as charged Im embarrassed to admit that I really don't know how to practice,,Repeating the chords over & over? My mind drifts and I move on to something else without "mastering" the lesson at hand. As a result, nothing is learned.
Obviously I need to practice on "how to practice"

Bill C · #23 10-21-2011, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chancho

Obviously I need to practice on "how to practice"

Look up an essay by Howard Roberts called "On Learning Music".

chancho · #24 10-21-2011, 08:03 AM

By the way, which online lessons are you taking?

Guitar Tricks...pretty well put together, but still. Any suggestions?

Gramps · #25 10-21-2011, 09:00 AM

Chancho,

You stated " .....I really don't know how to practice,,Repeating the chords over & over?.."

Can you apply the chords to a song yet? There are some fairly easy songs with only a few chords and easy melodies. (Autumn Leaves for one)

If I had to sit and play chords and not apply them to actual music my mind would wander too.

Do you know any songs yet?

Al_F · #26 10-21-2011, 09:07 AM

Frustration creeps in for me as well sometimes but it passes quickly. I think its normal and hopefully you don't get stuck on it. Usually frustration creeps up because I'm stuck on the outcome versus the process or practicing and playing.

Sandor · #27 10-23-2011, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chancho

By the way, which online lessons are you taking?

Guitar Tricks...pretty well put together, but still. Any suggestions?

I'm not familiar with Guitar tricks, but I have used Jimmy Bruno's online stuff before. If you put in the time, it will give you a solid foundation for how to learn songs, how to improvise etc, without getting overwhelmed with things that can wait til a more advanced stage. Just be aware that if you go there you need to stick to what he teaches. bringing up other methods or theory is not taken very well.

How much time do you have to practice? If you are just doing it for fun, an hour or two of serious structured practice is fine, but if you wanna get serious it has to be at least 5. ideally 8 or more.

To be honest, if its a struggle to practice an hour or so a day I think jazz is not gonna work. You will never be able to play the things you wanna play, and will continue to be frustrated.

I don't wanna be a downer, but I want to be honest about it.

Billnc · #28 10-23-2011, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandor

To be honest, if its a struggle to practice an hour or so a day I think jazz is not gonna work. You will never be able to play the things you wanna play, and will continue to be frustrated.

I don't wanna be a downer, but I want to be honest about it.

But if you study jazz an hour a day think of the benefits in other styles. I've wanted to be a jazzer since my teens. My studies have been for multiple hours a day. I've had maybe one or two jazz gigs a year, keep getting called for other things, because the jazz training has given me the ability to learn a lot of songs and a couple other instruments quickly and read at least 'well enough'.

I took up guitar for gigging again last January. I've done more jazz gigs the past 10 months than the previous 20 years combined. The rub is, the study of jazz has kept me working in many other genres for 21 years. Not a second of time was wasted on those studies, now I'm doing jazz in my 50's.

I think that is an upper. Not contrary to your post though.

chancho · #29 10-23-2011, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gramps

Chancho,

You stated " .....I really don't know how to practice,,Repeating the chords over & over?.."

Can you apply the chords to a song yet? There are some fairly easy songs with only a few chords and easy melodies. (Autumn Leaves for one)

If I had to sit and play chords and not apply them to actual music my mind would wander too.

Do you know any songs yet?

Autumn Leaves is a song Ive been playing (over & over & over). I hear the great ones do their thing with this song and am AMAZED then humbled when I hear my slooow version of it, LOL

Also my teacher has me learning "James"'s chords, man! thats a tough one! Anyway thats the extent of my song repertoire......

chancho · #30 10-23-2011, 10:32 PM

But if you study jazz an hour a day think of the benefits in other styles. I've wanted to be a jazzer since my teens. My studies have been for multiple hours a day. I've had maybe one or two jazz gigs a year, keep getting called for other things, because the jazz training has given me the ability to learn a lot of songs and a couple other instruments quickly and read at least 'well enough'.

My teacher says if I learn Jazz all other genre will be a cakewalk...I believe him