Necessary To Practice All Scale Shapes?

[Extrapolation]

Concerning ourselves only with the major scale and its modes (excluding harmonic minor, melodic minor, whole-tone scales, etc.), do you guys think it's necessary to learn every single scale shape? Rather than practicing five shapes for all seven modes of the major scale, and seeing as how the five major scale shapes cover the entire fretboard, would it be just as effective to master only the five shapes of the major scale in every key?

I have been practicing just the five major scale shapes, going through the cycle of fifths/fourths, and I feel I can improvise with the modes well. As long as you know what the notes are, and can use those notes with any one of them being the tonic, I don't see why one would have to practice separate shapes for Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, etc.

I'm interested to see what everyone thinks. Is it better or is it overkill to learn five shapes for each mode of the major scale?

[princeplanet]

Most here will tell you that the major shapes are enough, ie, from extreme to extreme in every position. Being aware of the "arpeggio of the moment" within those shapes is more important than being aware of the root of the mode for any given chord. Jazz is more about chromatically embellishing arps than it is about scale running.....

[Extrapolation]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Most here will tell you that the major shapes are enough, ie, from extreme to extreme in every position. Being aware of the "arpeggio of the moment" within those shapes is more important than being aware of the root of the mode for any given chord. Jazz is more about chromatically embellishing arps than it is about scale running.....

Right, this was my reasoning as well.

[fumblefingers]

i think you do, if you intend to master the jazz guitar. you should learn one, two, and three octave fingerings for every scale and mode.

For example, learn:
1. 7 one-octave fingerings for every diatonic mode.
2. at least 3, and possibly as many as 5 two-octave fingerings for every diatonic mode.
3. 1 three-octave fingering for every diatonic mode.

This takes time (a few years).

A suggested order of study:
1. First learn the basic full position shapes (like CAGED for example).
2. Then learn at least 2 two-octave fingerings starting on the 6th string per mode (this involves reuse, so will be a cinch),
3. Then the one-octave fingerings (this will also be a cinch),
4. Then some two-octave fingerings involving shifts (this will take some work),
5. Then the 3-octave fingerings, which obviously require shifts. (this will take some work too).

[Peter67]

Princplanet --

Every once in a while I read a post on this forum that turns on a light bulb and serves to clarify some nagging doubts. Your post did just this! Thanks!
Also, this is exactly what Jimmy Bruno is teaching at his institute.

Peter

[EightString]

For melodic solo work, my foundation was originally the 7 major modes as three-note-per-string patterns, along with arpeggios based on various chord shapes.

Paul Gilbert and Frank Gambale were a couple of my early sources.

Oddly enough, I no longer sound much like either of them because my playing is more free-form, where I'm less concerned with running lines, and more concerned with melodic note selection over changes.

While I still have those modes and arpeggios under my fingers as I play, the result is a lot less linear, because of that transition a player eventually makes where a scale or arpeggio is now more of an available pool of possible notes, not something to be traversed in a rigid pattern like I used to, and because I freely move up and down the neck, using fragments of those patterns as small as a single interval jump, so that the original larger patterns aren't even visible any more.

That said, I think that one can get there either way, with 7 modal shapes or 5 CAGED shapes. Dealer's choice.

One advantage I can see with the CAGED system is that the associated arpeggio forms are much more obviously integrated with the scalar forms.