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  #1  
Old 10-11-2011, 01:35 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Default ii V I VI progression -- what do you play on the VI?

Please help with a beginners question...

I've relied on etudes for this chord progression so far, yet I want to understand what's going on theory-wise. What scales may be used for the VI chord of this common jazz progression? I "hear" the sound (say, in the key of C: the sound of the descending notes G, F, E, D, Db, Ab, and A over the Adom7), but don't know the derived scale. Also, is the A7 open for any altered approach?

Thanks for any responses!!
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  #2  
Old 10-11-2011, 01:42 PM
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Generally, the ii and the VI chords are altered to Alt dominant chords, the VI even more than the ii.
You can play a lot of things over the A7alt, starting with A Dorian (if you were not to alter it), A Mixolydian (when you make it a dominant). If you alter it as a #5 you can play whole tone scale. If you make it a b5, Lydian dominant is a great choice (lydian b7 scale). With any alteration, you can play a whole-half diminished scale starting on the b9, 3rd, 5th, or 7th of the chord, or a half-whole starting on the root. There's also the super-locrian, that also works with any alteration as well.
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  #3  
Old 10-11-2011, 01:51 PM
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Traditionally, the A7 would be open to any scale used to improvise over a dominant 7 chord, but if you're new to this, forget the scales. Look at the chord tones.

Say we're in the key of C. ii-V7-I are all diatonic to the key of C, but VI7 is not, because it has a major third in it, instead of the typical minor third on the vi chord.

So, back to those chord tones. A7 = A C# E G. The only note in that chord which is not in the key of C is the C#, so zero in on that C# when you are improvising - and notice how it resolves ever so nicely down by half-step into the tonic note, C. Notice how it also leads into the ii chord, this time up by half-step, if you're going back to the ii at the beginning of your progression. Nice, huh?

Since this is a dominant 7th chord that is not resolving down by a fifth, I would probably want to shy away from altering it and instead just use nice consonant extensions: the natural 9th (B, which again leads nicely into C) or the 13th (F#, the #11 of C, giving a nice Lydian sound). An altered version of A7 (say, b9 or #5) would give some unusual sounds, like the b13 or the 11 of C, which I don't like the sound of.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orasnon View Post
I've relied on etudes for this chord progression so far, yet I want to understand what's going on theory-wise.
Think secondary dominant. It helps to know that the A7, rather than VI7, is really V7 of ii-7.
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Old 10-11-2011, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatJeff View Post
Since this is a dominant 7th chord that is not resolving down by a fifth, I would probably want to shy away from altering it and instead just use nice consonant extensions: the natural 9th (B, which again leads nicely into C) or the 13th (F#, the #11 of C, giving a nice Lydian sound). An altered version of A7 (say, b9 or #5) would give some unusual sounds, like the b13 or the 11 of C, which I don't like the sound of.
I assume the progression ii V7 I VI7 was repeating, like a vamp. So, as whatswisdom wrote, the A7 was resolving down a fifth to the Dm7. As for altered tones, why not? The A7 is often altered to be a A7b9; the b9 (Bb) gives you some nice voice leading -- B over CMaj7 to Bb over A7b9 to A over Dm7.
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  #6  
Old 10-13-2011, 08:52 PM
 
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Thanks for everyone's responses! Very helpful!
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  #7  
Old 10-13-2011, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles View Post
I assume the progression ii V7 I VI7 was repeating, like a vamp. So, as whatswisdom wrote, the A7 was resolving down a fifth to the Dm7. As for altered tones, why not? The A7 is often altered to be a A7b9; the b9 (Bb) gives you some nice voice leading -- B over CMaj7 to Bb over A7b9 to A over Dm7.
Yup, I agree with BDLH. If it's a repeating pattern, it's ii V7 I V7-of-ii ...
And since the A7 is acting as a dominant leading to a minor, altered tensions would be appropriate if desired. You don't actually have to think of using a different scale - just play in C Major but introduce a C# (3rd of the A7 chord) and a Bb (b9 of the A7 chord) when playing on the A7 leading to the Dm.
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  #8  
Old 10-17-2011, 01:45 PM
 
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FatJeff,

You did a GREAT job explaining this concept in such a simple and direct way. Your post had the "light bulb"effect for me. Thanks so much!

Peter
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter67 View Post
FatJeff,

You did a GREAT job explaining this concept in such a simple and direct way. Your post had the "light bulb"effect for me. Thanks so much!

Peter
Glad I could help.
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