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So, after a couple years I'm almost finished with the first part of the Mickey Baker's book. Yay! And thanks for all the forumites that recommended this book.
Now, what would be a good follow-up book on comping after I finish the first section of the Baker book?
What I like about the Baker method is that it teaches how to read a chord chart and make sense of it. And I really like his no-nonsense approach. However, there are still some songs where I can't make his method to work 100%. For example, "You'd Be So Nice To Come Home To" -- it has some dim and half dim chords that I'm not sure what to do about them
Right now I'm looking at the following books:
- Johnny Rector "Mel Bay Deluxe Encyclopedia of Guitar Chord Progressions" (link)
- Andrew Green "Jazz Guitar Comping" (link)
- Arnie Berle "Chords and Progressions for Jazz and Popular Guitar" (link)
- Joe Pass Guitar Chords (link)
Which one would you recommend as a follow-up to Baker's book?
Mostly, I'm interested in a system for making sense of chord changes like one may find in "Great American Songbook" type songs. That, and maybe learning some chord shapes that are less full than the ones Mickey Baker uses, so I don't end up clashing with the bass player.
By the way, I hope this doesn't read like I'm putting down the Baker book. On the contrary, I found it most enlightening, or I wouldn't have been studying it all this time (and plan to keep studying it in the future).
Thanks in advance!
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09-08-2011 01:04 PM
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The Joe Pass one is great, but it won't really help that much with understanding chord progressions. It's mostly for learning easy, useful chord grips and training your ear to recognize chord movement. It's kinda one of those things where you just play through it over and over and gradually light bulbs go off.
I am not familiar with the other books you listed.
So I'd say get the joe pass one, plus something else for a more structured analysis of chord progressions(not sure what book would be good for that, I learned that stuff in a very gradual way through many sources).
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Well, I know the Berle book, and it is excellent. I don't know the JP book, but I love the guy, so that may be good, too. Don't know the others at all.
What do you mean by " dim and half dim chords that I'm not sure what to do about them"? Are you talking about what chords to substitute? Why not just play them straight for a while. If the other book didn't cover those chords, I'm sure you can find some chord forms easily enough, even on this site!
The quick answer: If you know m7 chord forms, then just lower the fifth of that chord and you are playing a half dim. For full dim lower the seventh also.
Hope this helps!
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I was thinking about my "quick answer" and it was too quick. I might as well give the full answer.
Another way to find a diminished chord is to raise the root of any dominant 7 chord you know. This works with the chords you already know. So take a C7 chord, raise the root to C# and it's C# dim 7. That's an easy way to come to all the most common forms.
As far as what to do with diminished chords when you see them in a chart, well usually, when a dim chord is written in a chart, it's a substitution for a dom7b9 a Maj. third below.
So for example, a b dim 7 chord can be thought of as a G7b9. So you can do anything with the dim chord you would do with the dominant, d min 7/G7 being the obvious example.
The other think to know about dim 7 chords is they are composed of m3 intervals. Our b dim 7 above is B-D-F-Ab. A minor 3 above Ab (G#) is B again so it goes in a circle. That means that any note can be the root of the chord. so the above chord is a b, d, f or Ab dim 7. A lot of guys, JP for sure, will play a dim 7 chord, and then ride it up and down the neck in m3s. You shouldn't think of that as a substitution. It's just the same chord inverted.
The Berie book covers all this. I bet the JP book does too.
Hope this helps!
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Joe Pass Guitar Method...
Berklee Guitar Method....
Howard Roberts has a few books still out there..as does Herb Ellis...and Barney Kessell......
Check out jazz aids by Jamie Aebersold who has many guitar books and Mel Bay has many also...
time on the instrument...pierre
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I'm also confused by your comment about Dim and half dim (-7b5) chords. I can't imagine the Baker book leaving those out.
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Yes, I meant what chords to substitute for the dim and 1/2 dim's.
Originally Posted by furtom
Right now what I'm doing is what you say; got a couple chord forms from this site, actually, and I'm just playing these where needed. Since the Baker book has a bunch of good info about chord sequences with major/minor/dominant chords, but not much about dim's/half dim's, I was looking for some book that covers those. And also, that has some other chords substitutions to add to my vocabulary.
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Wow, thanks for the very informative response. Will try that tonight when I'm practicing. Originally Posted by furtom
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Thanks Pierre. Say hi to Gerard Depardieu for me Originally Posted by pierre richard
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Glad you liked it. Just remember that when you sub for a dim 7 you're going in the opposite direction we normally go, ie simple to more interesting. Originally Posted by Hernandinho
In most cases, the composer has already made the sub from V7 to dim 7 so it's going backwards to sub it.
In any case, your ears are the ultimate guide.
Oh, also, that kind of sub (ii/V) can't be done "on the fly" when you're with other musicians. If the piano is playing the b9 and you play a ii chord, it's gonna clash. Just bass should be OK.
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Going through the book again, there was indeed a lesson at the beginning with a couple progressions that include dim's. Will see if I can match them against the progressions in the songs I'm working on. Originally Posted by Gramps
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Ted Greene's Modern Chord Progressions is great. A bit repeatative, but still great. He spends a lot of time on I vi ii V (I) because that progression contains a ii V and a ii V I.
I also like Andrew Greene's guitar comping book (No relation to Ted Greene though.) In fact, all of Andrew Greene's books are quite good. The Red book is an excellent sight reading practice book. The Green book is for soloing and the Blue book is comping. There's a lot of great info there.
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Check out Mark Levine's jazz theory book for a broader approach to the music:
Amazon.com: The Jazz Theory Book (9781883217044): Mark Levine: Books
And take a look at Randy Vincent's "drop 2" book for guitar, based on Levine's similar work for piano.
Amazon.com: Jazz Guitar Voicings - Vol.1: The Drop 2 Book (9781883217648): Randy Vincent: Books
The second book in particular should help you with those sparse voicings you're looking for, especially if you look at the tonic of these chords as optional, in order to make room for the bass player.
Fareed Haque's comping course is also interesting because of his focus on building outward from 3rd/7th fundamentals, and keeping the voicings sparse in an ensemble situation.
http://truefire.com/jazz-guitar-less...urvival-guide/
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For the stated goal of being able to quickly read charts in The Great American Songbook, I would suggest you take a look at Swing & Big Band Guitar by Charlton Johnson:
Amazon.com: Swing and Big Band Guitar: Four-To-The Bar Comping in the Style of Freddie Green (0073999951479): Charlton Johnson: Books
It shows all the useful 4 note voicings that you'd use when comping in a band with a bass player. It also presents everything in a very systematic way, introducing all the important progressions.
The notation always includes the scale degree of the lowest note in the voicing, so it can look a little odd. But I think he put a lot of thought and time into structuring the book. I'm quite sure you would be very happy with it for your stated purpose.
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I've received excellent reviews about this book regarding chord system, substitutions , extensions and chord progressions:
Mel Bay Jazz Guitar Method: Ronny Lee: 9780786600366: Amazon.com: Books
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Very strong +1 for this. Originally Posted by TooSteep
Johnson also has a second book, Chords for Jazz Guitar, which moves from four-to-the-bar rhythm to comping with other rhythms and shout chorus type chord solos. His two books complement the Mickey Baker material quite nicely and are perfomance oriented with examples from the GAS so you can get right to work. IMO, the Mark Levine and Ted Greene books are not well-suited to your current goals.
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Go to Aebersold's website (or Amazon) and find a CD/book set by Barry Galbraith - Guitar Comping, I believe, is the title. Maybe just Comping. It's awesome, because it uses real tunes and gives you a way to comp through that song, w/sophisticated voicings you'll really dig. Starts easy, get harder as it goes. Really - this is a jewel. I'm trying to get through it myself. : )
kj
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Hal Crook How to Comp
Sonny Rollins The Bridge
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There are so many books, but most are a grind and I'm not clear they all have the kind of practical application that moves your playing up a notch. Do you have a favorite player that you have listened to and you especially dig his comping. If not, then listen to a handful of your favorite players, and analyze what they do. There's now so many Youtube videos, it's a great opportunity to watch and see if you can figure out what someone is doing. Remember though that the chord is just a cluster of notes, and is meaningless outside of a rhythmical context. That is much harder to grasp because so few books seem to focus on that. If you listen to some of the old bebop players like Jimmy Rainey (he's on Aebersold), you'll soon discover that the art of comping is never to be underestimated. Some players have made a career from it, and some great single line players have never mastered it. It will also depend on how you pluck chords ie with your fingers, or a pick. This will alter your attack and ultimately your rhythmical feel. If you are in LA go watch John Pisano, or Howard Alden if in NY. They use a brushing pick stroke so it doesn't sounds as punchy. Watch the great solo players like Joe Pass or Martin Taylor, who have a huge, well crafted vocabulary of chordal phrases and ideas. It's ultimately about picking up ideas from many different places, then experimenting with your own. There are no rules really. Books are only one source.
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I just remembered, it isn't bebop, but super-guitarist Robben Ford has some instructional stuff available for the comper, either a video or a book/cd. Robben is primarily a blues player, but in jazz-blues, he's a killer, too - and he says he prefers playing rhythm to lead. Awesome comping ideas from this guy.
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Mike DiLiddo has a good book out called "Maiden Voyage Guitar Voicings." He plays over the tracks on Aebersold's Vol. 54 ("Maiden Voyage"), with the piano removed. It's a good mix of tunes--Summertime, Satin Doll, Doxy, Autumn Leaves, Footprints, Maiden Voyage, a blues in Bb and another in F, Song for My Father, Blue Bossa, and one or two others. DiLiddo comps chorus after chorus and the grips he uses are in the booklet. It's a great way to learn voicings on the top four strings of the guitar and they work together.
He's more recently done another book which starts with root strings voicings and moves to easier "contemporary" voicings. That's a 2-disc set.
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All worth the price of admission...
- Jazz Rhythm Guitar by Roger Edison
- Improvising Jazz book by Jerry Coker
- Mel Bay Deluxe Encyclopedia of Guitar Chord Progressions by Johnny Rector
Probably, the only tutor you'll ever need is Johnny Rector's "Mel Bay Deluxe Encyclopedia of Guitar Chord Progressions". The book is full of every possible grip and progression so it's worth it at ANY price. Certainly the gem in the Mel Bay stable. All of the 33 Mickey Baker chords are inside and there must be 100 different chords in all, but the way they are employed in each progression is an invaluable study in voice leading. I'm wearing mine out.
No thinking. Just play the changes. The voice leading and rationale will eventually occur to you. They will start coming out in your playing, too. Don't be afraid to jump into the middle of the book to understand the method. The first half of the book is more like a gymnasium concerned with four bar progressions for learning the grips, so it's nice to see where you are headed. The second half of the book has a dozen full charts using what is learned in the first half.
Warning, if you're accustomed to lots of chatting and little substance, this book will fool you because it's only about the changes. The substitutions, inversions, string set combinations, CAGED forms, voice leading, extensions and alterations are all in the numerous examples. Very little talking for your money. Just play them and get them into your memory. This book should last for years of study and review. You will sound professional very quickly as the voicings and changes are reminiscent of the forties and fifties.
Each progression is amped up from the old majors and minors to the M6, M7, M79, M713 and M69. All 9, 11, 13, 7/6, m7. m711 and +/-5 and +/-9 covered. Tritone subs, upper structure subs, 1M7=6m7, 179nr=5m6, 179nr=3m7-5, o7 chord subs... Great sections on diatonic and chromatic passing chords (o7 and m7) as static substitutions. I think the whole idea is to keep playing the changes until you get the grips "in" your fingers. Regardless of ability level, just keep playing the changes.
My foundation book is Jazz Rhythm Guitar by Roger Edison. For a beginner, this is THE book as it is a programmed book that explains the basics. Between Edison and Rector you won't need anything else for chording in the popular and jazz idioms. No jazz fusion, scales or funk, in these books, though. Just bread and butter changes.
And don't forget the little Improvising Jazz book by Jerry Coker, with nearly 100 jazz tune templates classified by commonality in the back - essential tunes for understanding jazz changes. Also, concise info and tables displaying allowable extensions, the necessary scales, common A sections and bridges, turnarounds, modulation schemes and a dozen blues variations through substitution.
Jerry Coker's Appendix D tunes
01. Why Not
02. Our Love is Here To Stay
03. Chelsea Bridge
04. Picadilly
05. Prelude to A Kiss
06. Lil' Darlin'
07. I Cover the Waterfront
08. Rose Room (In A Mellotone)
09. Street of Dreams
10. Undecided
11. The Chase
12. Bright Eyes
13. Opus No.1
14. Crazy Rhythm
15. This Can't Be Love
16. Broadway
17. It's Almost Like Being in Love
18. Just Friends
19. Moonglow
20. I'll See You in My Dreams
21. Be My Love
22. There'll Never Be Another You
23. Bird Blues (as in Blues For Alice)
24. Algo Bueno (Woody 'N' You)
25. I'll Keep Loving You
26. Best Thing For You is Me
27. I'm Getting Sentimental Over You
28. Tour De Force
29. Stella by Starlight
30. Good Bait
31. Get Happy
32. Topsy
33. Jeepers Creepers
34. Tour De Force
35. Five Bros.
36. Airegin
37. I Didn't Know About You
38. Star Eyes
39. Taking A Chance On Love
40. Broadway
41. Polka Dots and Moon Beams
42. 'S'Wonderful
43. Once In A While
44. Tea For Two
45. Prelude To A Kiss
46. Baubles, Bangles And Beads
47. Godchild
48. Between The Devil And The Deep Blue Sea
49. If You Could See Me Now
50. Parisian Thoroughfare
51. Lover
52. I'll Remember April
53. Long Ago And Far Away
54. Autumn In New York
55. China Boy
56. Fairyland
57. Idaho
58. My Old Flame
59. Opus No.1
60. Chelsea Bridge
61. Easy Living
62. Darn That Dream
63. Half-Nelson (Ladybird)
64. For Heaven's Sake
65. In A Sentimental Mood
66. Smoke Get In Your Eyes
67. Best Thing For You Is Me
68. If I Had You
69. They Can't Take That Away From Me
70. I Never Knew (Morning Fun)
71. These Foolish Things
72. My One And Only Love
73. Rosetta (Yardbird Suite)
74. Don't You Know I Care
75. Gone With the Wind
76. Tangerine
77. I Love You
78. Too Marvelous for Words
79. How High the Moon
80. Tune-Up
81. Solar
82. Laura
83. Cherokee
84. Star EyesLast edited by CrackerJackLee; 08-17-2017 at 03:06 AM. Reason: added turnarounds
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