learning all notes (unusual background)

[apossibleworld]

Hi - this is my first post here. I grew up playing jazz saxophone and piano, and have a good understanding of music theory. I've been playing mostly guitar for years now, but not so much jazz. But I've been wanting to learn now. I've been learning the guitar like a guitarist would, chord shapes etc, but I feel like this is strangely a hinderance to me, because I'm cheating my real knowledge. If you tell me to play a C diminished chord, I can do that, but I don't actually know what notes I'm playing unless I pick them out very very slowly. It's frustrating to me, for my understanding of chords to just be about relative memorization. I feel like the only thing standing in the way between my being a poor guitar player and a great guitar player is knowing where all the notes are on the fretboard. Not simply being able to find them, but knowing with fluency, where you don't need to think about it. I know this is counter-intuitive to most of you guitar players, who learned in normal guitar school style, but I think this is what I need. So after that long forward ---

Any advice for learning what every spot on the fretboard is? I think I need exercises that really make me work, instead of just "noodling around while thinking about it", which is what I usually do.

thanks and happy holidays!

[jokron]

Well, since you've been playing sax and piano I assume you read music pretty well.

I'd recommend William Leavitts "A modern method for guitar".

Amazon.com: A Modern Method for Guitar - Volumes 1, 2, 3 Complete (Berklee Methods) (9780876390115): William Leavitt: Books

When you've played through that you'll know every spot on your guitar neck.

Jokron

[M-ster]

Another tack would be to take the chord forms that you know - for a given chord progression, say - and consciously (1) look at each note in the chord, (2) name it, and (3) identify it's function. Next chord ...

[ksjazzguitar]

Yeah, I think [insert what M-ster said]. Do the same for scales, naming the notes as you play them. Do some sight reading. There are no short cuts. Just be happy you have a head start.

Peace,
Kevin

[Senior]

I play Clarinet and saxophone and can read music faster than I can play. The way I learned the fret board was to take my favorite music, play the melody line in position one. Then play it again up the neck until I had it down cold. Then move further up the neck and do it again. It doesn't take long before you know where each note is and muscle memory starts taking over. I now can play the melody line off of sheet music anywhere on the neck. To be perfectly honest, I don't know one chord shape from another. Never learned to play that way.

[bako]

Here's a few exercises

Play the following sequences forwards and backwards on all 6 strings one at a time.
Play quarter notes at 60 or slower to start.

1. C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A D G C

2. C E G# F A C# Bb D F# Eb G B C

3. C Eb Gb F Ab Cb Bb Db Fb Eb Gb A C

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the spirit of what Senor suggested. Spend time each session playing one thing every where it is possible.
There is a logic to the fingerboard layout that becomes apparent from observing where the unisons and octaves occur.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Play a melody in all keys within any 5 frets at all possible starting notes with sufficient range.
There are 2 1/3 octaves of the chromatic scale and 1 unison within 5 frets.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Figure out how to play each interval melodically and harmonically. Once you can recognize the intervals on guitar it becomes easier to understand what are the component parts of the chords and melodies under you fingers.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[CGKnight]

Not a pro like the other folks so feel free to flame/disregard this in its entirety.

I'm in your place, more or less. (except I haven't learned said instruments, only some classical guitar first, which taught me the notes on the fretboard to a rough - but not intuitive - level.)

But I found I couldn't really memorize notes by calling out and memorizing their names in scales and chords - too boring IMHO.
How I did (and am doing) that is simply by improvising (have been doing only easy chords so far, I-IV-V7-I in C etc), and trying to land the triad tones on the strong beats. Thats IT. Now, after a few weeks of doing that, I have a decent intuition of where I might find myself a C E G, F A C and G B D F on the fretboard. I've been doing bass+melody (fingerstyle), and knowing the basses is pretty simple too.

Improvisation simply forced me to learn the notes that way, no scope for laziness. And yet it didn't feel forced.

---
I'm sure you know the super-basic ways, though. Still, as a mention,
-The note on the open string is the same as the note on the 12th fret (and the whole thing repeats after that);
-One way of finding the note an octave higher than any given note, is to move up two strings, and up two frets.
Eg when you know G2 (6th string 3rd fret), to find G3 you go up two strings and up two frets = G3 is 4th string, 5th fret.
Works on all strings except if the second note lies on the 2nd or 1st string (then it's 3 frets). Also works vice versa.

[apossibleworld]

Thanks all for the suggestions! I will try everything. The thing that's the most difficult for me is that I have very very good relative pitch, which makes to all too easy for me to cheat with sight reading exercises. I've never been a good sight reader, because I rely on my ear most of the time. I can read just fine, but only slowly. When sight reading, by brain does things like "I just played a G, and the next note is a whole step higher, so play an A". But on the guitar, I don't think "A", I just think "up two frets". Does that make sense? So I can sight read a piece with the guitar just fine, without thinking about what notes I'm actually playing. It's all just relying on intervals. I need to find a way to force myself to not take the easy route!

As a woodwind player I played instruments in Eb, Bb, C, and even F, so I got used to a lot of relative transposition. So this mental ability that used to really help me has turned into a hinderance on the guitar.

[Drumbler]

Originally Posted by Senior

I play Clarinet and saxophone and can read music faster than I can play. The way I learned the fret board was to take my favorite music, play the melody line in position one. Then play it again up the neck until I had it down cold. Then move further up the neck and do it again. It doesn't take long before you know where each note is and muscle memory starts taking over. I now can play the melody line off of sheet music anywhere on the neck. To be perfectly honest, I don't know one chord shape from another. Never learned to play that way.

Senior,

I found your post interesting.

May I ask how you recognize your chords? Do you do as a piano player does and group the notes by sight reading?

Most guitarists read the chord name off the chart and select an inversion.

[WhoisLevang]

Hey possibleworld,
As has been said, be thankful for the head start you have. I am a guitar player only, and not a pro, but have played the instrument for over 30 years. Studied classical for roughly a year with tutors once a week. Still, I read VERY poorly. (of course, on balance, I can improvise blues all day long... "roll eyes")
Any road, Chromatic exercises, scales running the length of the neck, etc. Will help you with what you need, which is simply to know your finger board. Learn your guitar scales and say (sing) the names of the notes as you play them.
For what it's worth , that's my amateur advice... ;-)
Once you have your notes on the neck down, you will most likely experience a quantum leap in your playing that many of us never get.
ATB

[Senior]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Senior,

I found your post interesting.

May I ask how you recognize your chords? Do you do as a piano player does and group the notes by sight reading?

Most guitarists read the chord name off the chart and select an inversion.

I do it just like a piano player does it. My first instrument was a Hammond Organ. That is where I learned to read music and that was many decades ago. Now I have a key board and the left hand knows where all the chords are. Never did get it straight on the guitar.

[Drumbler]

Originally Posted by Senior

I do it just like a piano player does it. My first instrument was a Hammond Organ. That is where I learned to read music and that was many decades ago. Now I have a key board and the left hand knows where all the chords are. Never did get it straight on the guitar.

So how do you know what chord to play for the guitar? By the name above the bar or by reading the notes? I'm still not clear on that.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

So how do you know what chord to play for the guitar? By the name above the bar or by reading the notes? I'm still not clear on that.

If the name is above the bar, then I know what notes to play. I just don't know the shape the left hand should be in. I know where the notes are on the fretboard and play them but I have to work that out on my own I just can't play the chord like most players useing shapes. The same thing happens when just reading the notes off of the chart. Here again I have to work that out on my own often reducing the chord to only 3 notes. Playing only the melody line like I do makes playing chords easier because you don't play most of them.

This is Hi-jacking some one elses thread. I would be glad to continue the conversation but it should be through PM.

Name here is Mer

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by apossibleworld

Any advice for learning what every spot on the fretboard is? I think I need exercises that really make me work, instead of just "noodling around while thinking about it", which is what I usually do.

thanks and happy holidays!

Start with the 5th and 6th string note names because they are often the roots of chords.

If your 6th string is memorized, so is your 1st string.

The 3rd 4th strings can be memorized using the "octave shape" (up or down 2 strings and 2 frets) relative to the 5th and 6th strings.

That only leaves the 2nd string (the hard part for people who pick up the guitar after years of playing other instruments)

I recommend all previous suggestions to help with that.