Interactive practical/theory group?

tonyknight · #1 11-09-2010, 04:39 AM

Hi all,

I'm fairly new here. I'm an accomplished guitarist and teacher, and can easily get my hands around SRV, Clapton, even progressives like Steve Howe. While I could probably learn a jazz comp/solo very slowly by patiently listening to it hundreds of times, I'm really a jazz neophyte - and don't wish to stay that way!

There're loads of threads here about 'how to begin', 'which method' etc.

When I teach, I find a 'simple' song, break it down, explain the theory/harmony etc., then go phrase by phrase into the song making suggestions for different techniques depending on my student.

All that to to say...

And yet, there are some really accomplished jazz players here who love to offer advice on theory and practice! How about we collectively suggest ONE easy (and I mean EASY) song. One that is freely listenable on the web. Then start with a chord chart, and have different members chime in on where to start, which forms of chords to use (best fingerings etc.), how to get the feel/groove, explanations of the harmony (why the chords are there and in that order), possible substitutions, scales, soloing... little by little, I - and the numerous other neophytes - might actually gain some confidence by learning a real song, all the way through.

Is anyone up for the challenge?
Cheers!!!

PS If this has been suggested before, apologies :-)

MGranada · #2 11-09-2010, 05:37 AM

Hi Tonyknight

I think this is a great idea, i´m in.

I suggest one easy song to start :

Blue Bossa

Written by Kenny Dorham in 1963.

Recommended Listening

Joe Henderson, "Page One"

Pat Martino, "Cream"

See ya

docbop · #3 11-09-2010, 10:06 AM

Sounds like a good idea, but I can see it going south real fast. I would say do like we do in computer world and pick a book or in this case a method books and then work thru it as a group. Each week assign x pages to the group then discuss the experiences and do a Q&A online. By using a book/method you avoid the issues trying to deal with multiple approaches. When done pick another book to go thru.

There is a thread here??? or another guitar site where some people are doing Howard Robert's SuperChop book together and commenting online.

My two cents.

mr. beaumont · #4 11-09-2010, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyknight

Hi all,

I'm fairly new here. I'm an accomplished guitarist and teacher, and can easily get my hands around SRV, Clapton, even progressives like Steve Howe. While I could probably learn a jazz comp/solo very slowly by patiently listening to it hundreds of times, I'm really a jazz neophyte - and don't wish to stay that way!

There're loads of threads here about 'how to begin', 'which method' etc.

When I teach, I find a 'simple' song, break it down, explain the theory/harmony etc., then go phrase by phrase into the song making suggestions for different techniques depending on my student.

All that to to say...

And yet, there are some really accomplished jazz players here who love to offer advice on theory and practice! How about we collectively suggest ONE easy (and I mean EASY) song. One that is freely listenable on the web. Then start with a chord chart, and have different members chime in on where to start, which forms of chords to use (best fingerings etc.), how to get the feel/groove, explanations of the harmony (why the chords are there and in that order), possible substitutions, scales, soloing... little by little, I - and the numerous other neophytes - might actually gain some confidence by learning a real song, all the way through.

Is anyone up for the challenge?
Cheers!!!

PS If this has been suggested before, apologies :-)

I think the only problem is that in jazz, each version is an interpretation. So there's few songs we can say have a definitive version, and if we used a stock chart, such as a Real Book page, there will be likely no available versions that play the song exactly like that chart. For example, there are no "best" chord forms to use.

If we can allow for the ebb and flow, it's be cool. Perhaps using the Real Book chart as a starting point, and folks can chime in as to how they interpret it?

I see jazz as moving in a different direction than what have done with other genres--In jazz, I feel like you start with a melody, and then everything else (including the way the melody itself is played) becomes part of the interpretation...

backliner · #5 11-09-2010, 10:39 AM

Perhaps a minor Blues like "Summertime," or "Comin' Home Baby."

They lay well for guitar, and you can use pentatonic, diatonic, and George Russell lydian chromatic concepts on them.

M-ster · #6 11-09-2010, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyknight

... find a 'simple' song, break it down, explain the theory/harmony etc., then go phrase by phrase into the song ...

I think you have your approach, and it's a good one.

But, I would participate in your discussions ...

Dad3353 · #7 11-09-2010, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyknight

...little by little, I - and the numerous other neophytes - might actually gain some confidence by learning a real song, all the way through.

Is anyone up for the challenge?...

Good evening (again...) Tony...

I'd like to participate in this; having been a 'beginner' for the past 40-odd years it might give me a kick-start. I'd go with 'Blue Bossa', as it's totally unknown to me. I have the 'Vanilla Book' version, and the version in the 'New Real Book', so there is an immediate comparison to be made (explanations as to the chord substitutions, embellishments etc...).
I'm still going through the Vanilla 'Misty', so I'll add 'Blue' to my routine and see what happens with just the basic chord sequence.
I can put it into Guitar Pro (why do they call it that, I wonder..?) to hear the melody, and try to read along with it, and work something out. I hope I like it, when I hear it...

This might even end up being fun, who knows..?

To be continued...

matt.guitarteacher · #8 11-09-2010, 02:55 PM

Tony, I really like your idea of making this based around actual tunes. That's probably the most frustrating thing for people like myself who don't have any local jazz teachers. I know that with each step I'm probably reinventing the wheel and would love to see how other folks approach a tune.

I think this is a great idea, especially in light of the experience poll on the forum. I was surprised at the number of respondents who've played fewer than 5 years.

I know that I would benefit from seeing other's takes on the same tune.

markf · #9 11-09-2010, 03:53 PM

blue bossa great choice of tune.

simple but still lots of possibilities. and known to many, so always useful.

don't know if I can add anything but I would "watch"

0zoro · #10 11-10-2010, 01:11 AM

There seems to be a real need for this appoach. The rockers are a majority group and thus it is alot easier for them to meet and learn from each other. I live in Stockholm and feel that my interest is part of a diminishing tribe as I dont meet jazz interested people on a day to day. Using this technique to meet by long distance is a great idea, and Im in. I will go with the flow as to the picking of song. I recall another thread with al list of songs, starting simple, that is used by one of the uni programs which I will make available later when I can access it again.

jayx123 · #11 11-10-2010, 06:47 AM

count me in (although the key center approach which I play by is not that popular here)

tonyknight · #12 11-15-2010, 05:03 AM

Hi Everyone,

Well there seems to be some interest in the nascent idea – thanks to all of you. But what to do next?

I tend to agree with using a song like Blue Bossa as a starting point and I’ll try to create a couple of charts to post later today. Then perhaps some others amongst us could post alternatives and we could collectively decide upon one or two with which to proceed.

Is there a problem with uploading largish jpegs to the thread, or should we think of an alternative way of sharing charts?

Once we’ve selected an appropriate ‘version’, it might make sense to talk briefly about its structure – primary key, key changes and so forth – so that we could begin to think about how to go about improvising. I appreciate Jayx’s comments about the centre approach – being the absolute jazz beginner that I am – I find it the easiest way (so far) to begin to think about soloing. But it would be a great exercise to look at what the alternative methods offer so that we can explore different ways to arrive at a good level of improvisation.

Then? Perhaps we might upload versions to the showcase for critique, especially the variety of ‘how to improve’? This is where it gets fuzzy for me at the moment, but I’m sure that we’ll find a way to make this interactive virtual community a great boost for those of us like me and Ozoro who don’t have easy access to local jazz communities (probably others amongst us too).

One idea: I don’t yet have a copy of BIAB (out of stock last time I checked) but if someone else does, is it possible to take the collectively chosen comping chart and create a midi file or mp3 so that we have an ‘ideal’ backing track available? It begs the same question as posed earlier, as to how to effectively share the information/files…

Hey, Dad, I’m a little like you although the first time I tried to play jazz was on the trombone, oh, 35 yrs ago (much easier than guitar), and then I fell out of my seat when I saw a very young guy playing jazz guitar at the local conservative club – before I became an anarchist drop-out J He offered to give me some lessons but I just felt a huge cultural divide between us – so, I’ve probably been a beginner for ages too! I suspect that there are many of us out there, and I’m sure that this will help quite a bit!

Peace,
Tony

big bang · #13 11-15-2010, 08:58 AM

great idea! count me in

Reg · #14 11-15-2010, 09:13 AM

Cool Tony...One things that happens when we add backing tracks is that sometimes they become the focus... maybe a biab expert could make a simple backing track,( drums and bass ), at a couple different tempos, one slow and one a little more uptempo, and post sample for those who want to post their examples. Maybe a few tunes also... I'm cool with Blue Bossa, maybe add, Nica's Dream and one a little more contemporary... I'll Catch You , by Scofield or similar and one a little more standard, Hank Mobley's This Dig of You, Frank Foster's Simone, You Don't Know What Love Is... Anyway there are plenty of theory freaks(I fit in that group) to explain what tune implies. It's probable best I don't pick tunes... Best Reg

oilywrag · #15 11-15-2010, 10:03 AM

Hi Reg and Tony,
This link should give you a backing track for Blue Bossa,the chords are left simple,the tempo's about 120

will post an up tempo one if we are all happy with this

Cm7 | |Fm7 | |
Dm7b5|G7 |Cm7 | |
Ebm7 |Ab7 |DbMaj7 | |
Dm5b5 |G7 |Cm7 |Dm7b5 G7 |
Cm7 | |Fm7 | |
Dm7b5 |G7 |Cm7 | |
Ebm7 |Ab7 |DbMaj7| |
Dm7b5 |G7 |Cm7 | ||

big bang · #16 11-15-2010, 11:00 AM

I'n no expert but,here is another one i just made.please wait few seconds for the countdown!
4shared.com - free file sharing and storage - download

mp3+pdf(chords) tempo 10. Using Biab bassmidi exported, ez drummer latin loop,trilogy bass in reaper.

Its kinda late here..sadly i do not have a headphone ,I don't wanna wake up the wife and kids , so it is mixed at a super low volume,audio engine a5 speaker around 7 o'clock,I'm saving the reaper session as well for future modification..

big bang · #17 11-15-2010, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by big bang

I'n no expert but,here is another one i just made.please wait few seconds for the countdown!
4shared.com - free file sharing and storage - download

mp3+pdf(chords) tempo 10. Using Biab bassmidi exported, ez drummer latin loop,trilogy bass in reaper.

Its kinda late here..sadly i do not have a headphone ,I don't wanna wake up the wife and kids , so it is mixed at a super low volume,audio engine a5 speaker around 7 o'clock,I'm saving the reaper session as well for future modification..

correction tempo is 180

tonyknight · #18 11-15-2010, 11:07 AM

First of all, thanks very much to Oilywrag for creating the backing track – hopefully that will allow us to get started… And then, thanks, Reg, for your input which is spot on. Perhaps someone can rise to the occasion and create such a backing track either in midi (so we can tweak the tempo) or in BIAB…

As OilyWrag has provided the standard chord chart, which would have been one of the two I’d promised earlier, I’ll just provide the second as a point of comparison. Essentially all I’ve done is graphically charted a version posted on youtube by someone called sirjames100.

YouTube - Blue Bossa melody in block chords

It’s a chord melody version and is quite challenging at anything other than a really slow tempo (for me at least) due to the rapid fingering changes. But it at least shows some of the alternative voicings available. I think that the Gb7 to Ab7 change is actually played in a semi-arpegiated manner, as such:

---------------------------------
-----------slide-9--------------------
------9------------------9-------
--8----slide-10-------11-------
------------------------10-------
----------------------------------

Personally I wouldn’t play the double G7#9 at the end, but would probably substitute the first with a Dm7b5 for example (assuming I could play this at speed J).

As I still don’t know the best way to provide a complicated chart, I’m going to resort to inserting an image in a separate post – I hope I don’t offend anyone. I also hope it comes through clearly enough! If not, back to the drawing board.

Peace.

tonyknight · #19 11-15-2010, 11:13 AM

The tab-pasting didn't totally work. I should have been more like this:

---------------------------------
-----------slide-9--------------------
------9------------------9-------
--8----slide-10----------11-------
-------------------------10-------
----------------------------------

tonyknight · #20 11-15-2010, 11:28 AM

I'm going to attach the chart as a Word doc. If this isn't any use, let me know and I'll attach it as a jpeg (larger)...

big bang · #21 11-15-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyknight

First of all, thanks very much to Oilywrag for creating the backing track – hopefully that will allow us to get started… And then, thanks, Reg, for your input which is spot on. Perhaps someone can rise to the occasion and create such a backing track either in midi (so we can tweak the tempo) or in BIAB…

As OilyWrag has provided the standard chord chart, which would have been one of the two I’d promised earlier, I’ll just provide the second as a point of comparison. Essentially all I’ve done is graphically charted a version posted on youtube by someone called sirjames100.

YouTube - Blue Bossa melody in block chords

It’s a chord melody version and is quite challenging at anything other than a really slow tempo (for me at least) due to the rapid fingering changes. But it at least shows some of the alternative voicings available. I think that the Gb7 to Ab7 change is actually played in a semi-arpegiated manner, as such:

---------------------------------
-----------slide-9--------------------
------9------------------9-------
--8----slide-10-------11-------
------------------------10-------
----------------------------------

Personally I wouldn’t play the double G7#9 at the end, but would probably substitute the first with a Dm7b5 for example (assuming I could play this at speed J).

As I still don’t know the best way to provide a complicated chart, I’m going to resort to inserting an image in a separate post – I hope I don’t offend anyone. I also hope it comes through clearly enough! If not, back to the drawing board.

Peace.

sorry for the ending chord ! G7#9 will be indeed very weird for the ending if it doesn't resolve to Cm, I exported the pdf. chords without refering to the track which i modified the ending! my bad.. I do not remember where i get the Biab file.. please ignore the chords i uploaded,

oilywrag · #22 11-15-2010, 11:30 AM

This is Blue Bossa at 180.

Cheers Tom

big bang · #23 11-15-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyknight

I'm going to attach the chart as a Word doc. If this isn't any use, let me know and I'll attach it as a jpeg (larger)...

thank u ! the youtube vedio is also very helpful,

big bang · #24 11-15-2010, 12:16 PM

BLUEBOSA.MG4 - 4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download

heres the biab file

Reg · #25 11-15-2010, 01:47 PM

Wow you guys cover... I couldn't play your version bigbang... probable me... Oilywrag... your version is too good...I could play one note all the way through and sound great, I like the tempo... all though I'm not sure everyone can hang at 180... I host a jazz jam tonight and need to get charts together, mondays usually my night off, I'll try and video me playing and explain analysis with choices, either later today or Tues. Morning and post... I think I have a recording of me playing BB from... like 30 years ago, I posted it here once...Best Reg

tonyknight · #26 11-15-2010, 02:19 PM

Well after reading Reg's post, I feel much better! Unfortunately, I have a day trip to a nice professor at a hospital tomorrow - 500 miles round trip... so I will probably butt back in on thursday...

Happy bossa-ing, and happy jamming, Reg...

Reg · #27 11-15-2010, 02:32 PM

Here's a really bad quality, very, very old and recorded on who knows what...sorry. Bass player who didn't quite have a handle on latin feels, don't remember Drummer... Anyway my plan is to help make my current playing sound better... Reg

oilywrag · #28 11-15-2010, 02:54 PM

Hey Reg,Glad you like it,what I think may be cool would be two videos if poss.1 really hanging in there at 180. Plus one showing that just because the tempos well up there.You dont have to play a million notes to sound good, its about note choice.
If anyone wants to post a video at the slower tempo feel free.

Many thanks Reg

Tom

fep · #29 11-15-2010, 07:38 PM

Hey Tom,

Was that backing track done in BIAB?

Sure sounds better than my BIAB. Is that the newest version you're using?

Could you make a brief list of the steps you used for the track, that is if you did anything outside of BIAB.

That's a great sounding track.

jayx123 · #30 11-19-2010, 05:16 AM

This is a great thread, we can all learn so much here, so I thought I will revive it.

I recorded an improv on Oilrag's backtrack. and I thought I will share my thinking process improvising over the tune.

I'm just an amateur, and in the process of a major reshuffling of my improv method. so go ahead and slaughter this!
so said that here is how I think when improv on this tune:

Off line:
the first thing I do is just listen to the tune played by different artists a few times, and memorize the melody till I know it by heart.

Then I listen well to the harmony try to catch important sections, (don't know exactly how to explain this).

Then I take the sheet and analyze the harmony and in this tune there are 2 key centers Eb major and Db major. these will be my "landing pad" if I loose the changes or if I decide to play by "scale".

On line (improvising)
I play the head.
just finishing the head and into the improv I play some kind of intro

then on the first chorus I just play very simple melodic stuff trying to outline the chords thinking of the chord tone (this is a new factor in my improv) on the next choruses I have to suppress the chord by chord thinking (because this is still not in my fingers and is interfering when I try to make a more complex melodic line) but I do try to hit the the C-7 (I have noticed that the c-7 and f-7 are pretty close (the 9th) so I just treat them the same when targeting.

also on the c-7 and F-7 I will play a c blues scale/ minor pentatonic

(this part is also new for me) I see the shifting to the d-7b5 as an important harmony point as it starts the minor 2-5-1 so I will try to target the chords tones.

on that minor 2-5-1 I like the sound of the c melodic minor scale so I use it quite a bit on the entire progression (don't know if its theoretically correct, one of you experts will probably set me straight here )

then the key center changes to Db major by a major 2-5-1 here I switch from playing melodic lines on the Db major scale using chromatic to connects the notes, It is important for me to do the key shift back to Eb smoothly (I do this by ear by playing some chromatic passage to the key center of Eb but trying to hit the d-7b5, I don't always succeed, if this is the case I will try so include one of its chord tones in line)

blueboss.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

cheers
Jay