Interactive practical/theory group?

[fep]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Do you think Dirk would be willing to open a new subforum for song dissection?

I'd definitely participate, but it'd have to be structured cleanly (like the one thread per song idea--excellent) I'll be honest, the reason I've avoided this thread is I can't tell who's talking to whom about what!

I think that is a good idea.

This is definitely one my favorite threads that I have participated in. I love to see these type of threads become a permanent fixture of the forum.

[oilywrag]

Reg,how is the list of songs coming on??

Autumn Leaves
Satin Doll
Loverman
Valse Hot
Central Park West
All the Things You Are
Afternoon In Paris
Just Friends
Christmass Tune
Have You Met Miss Jones
Misty

This seems to be all for the time being.

cheers tom

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

We need a Jobim tune on the list! let's avoid the obvious (Ipanema) and go for, say, Desafinado or Insensatez.

[Dark Star]

I've been working on Insensatez lately, exploring some smooth voice leading concepts introduced to me by Tim Lerch.

[wizard3739]

How about Dindi, Corcovado,Triste or maybe Ceora? All are nice Bossa sounds.

wiz

[fep]

I updated the list. 18 tunes so far. Let me know if I missed any or if anyone wants to add a tune.

Later today I'll post the list in a seperate thread. I'll post it as a poll so we can vote on it. That will give us 4 days to vote and we can start the new thread on Dec. 1st.

Autumn Leaves
Afternoon in Paris
All the Things you Are
Central Park West
Ceora
Christmas Time is Here
Corcovado
Desafinado
Dindi
Have You Met Miss Jones
Insensatez
Just Friends
Loverman
Misty
Satin Doll
Triste
Valse Hot
White Christmas



And there's this one: Christmass Tune? I'm not aware of a tune by that title. Can anyone help me out on this one

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by fep

And there's this one: Christmass Tune? I'm not aware of a tune by that title. Can anyone help me out on this one

Maybe as in "how 'bout a Christmas tune, too"?

[tonyknight]

Hi Frank, as it seems easy enough, I'd like to add 'Fly me to the moon'...

[fep]

I've posted the poll, it's here:

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...-analysis.html

[Reg]

Vote for 1, or should we vote for three and then vote for 1

[FatJeff]

Ahh, Ceora - what a great song.

YouTube - Lee Morgan-Ceora

[fep]

Originally Posted by Reg

Here's the video

Hey Reg, Thanks for the vid. I like those subs, especially switching the ii chord to D7#9 and playing an altered scale. Going from D7alt scale to G7alt scale brings up some good lines.

I thought of another approach for the ii V (yeah I invented this, though I'm sure about a million folks invented it before me )

I sometimes play over Bb7 for both the Dm7b5 and the G7alt. Yeah I know that Bb mixolydian has the same notes as C aeolian. But just thinking Bb7 phrases, arps, scales yields a bunch of different lines that sound good over that part of the tune.

Or even better, Bb7(b9) arps and Bb mixolydian but with a flat 9 (not sure if that scale has a name.?)


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[bako]

Scale #2 is derived from EbFGAbBbCbDEb Eb Harmonic Major

[wizard3739]

Hey reg, very good, lucid video, thank you very much! This thread is becoming my favorite lurking space.

wiz

[Reg]

Hey Fep and bako.... as bako said mixo with b9 is V chord from Harmonic Maj. It's one of the other choices for collection of pitches for V chords, More in use in last 15 or 20 years...and is not altered, right, has totally different implications. Bob Mintzer digs sound as well as others. The same problem with the aug. 2nd between b6 and 7th degree... has a very non traditional jazz sound. When I use V of Har. Maj. I add the #9 when I feel it's needed to make sound more altered or like jazz as compared to Rock and roll. Many ears like to hear a natural 4th and 5th. especially when from classical, rock etc... background. BDLH likes to use the II chord from Har. Maj., think of as; 1, 9, #9, 11, b5, 13, b7... I used always thin of Har. Min. and usually again fill in extra note as I felt needed. Nice approach... very cool with a different set of implication and control factors... I always heard it different... I like it and will use it I'm sure...
So we have;
V chord from Har. Maj. 1, b9, 3,11,5, 13, b7, ( I like to add #9, gives me option of using sub-V with #9, getting close to Diminished...but not so symmetrical.
V chord from Har. Min.... 1, b9, 3, 11, 5, b13, b7, ( again I add #9...personal issue)
V chord from MM............ 1, 9, 3, 11, 5, b13, b7... not really used much
VII chord from MM..........1,b9, #9, 3, b5 or #11, b13, b7, the standard.
Different contexts help define whether you want to pull from existing harmonic area, usually referring to the 11 and the 5th as to which altered effect you want( type of resolution, voice leading etc...) Jazz players usually hear altered 11 and 5ths and go from there. This is a great topic and although a little more complex... helps show one of the many differences between jazz and traditional harmony. Best Reg

[Sailor]

Just got on this thread...fantastic!! How about a look at a Jazz/Blues number for a lot of us relative newbies??? Quick and dirty.

Blue Monk
Bags Groove
Billies Bounce

I'm all ready for AATYA, Autumn Leaves, Corcovado.

Love it all so far, Thanks Sailor

[Reg]

Hey sailor I posted a lot of info on Jazz/blues approaches on You Don't Know What Love Is thread in the Theory section. Also put short sample video... check them out and if I need to explain in better detail let me know... Best Reg

[fep]

I forgot to mention one think about thinking and playing over Bb7, while the song/band plays Dm7b5 and G7.

Fm7 to Bb7 to Cm7 is what Jerry Coker in his book 'hearin' the changes' calls a backdoor progression that functions in a tune in a similar maner as a ii V i.

So I orginally approached it as a rehamonization but it turns out that Bb7 lines works well over the G7

and another line that works well over the Dm7b5 to G7alt to Cm7 is lines created while thinking:

Bb7 Bdim7 Cm7

[Reg]

Hey Frank how goes.. Do you hear them as same function, with different roots, Bb7 can be same collection of notes as D-7b5, as with Bdim7 and G7alt or G7b9 or are you as you said a re-harmonization, through MI or how ever you would choose to explain. I guess the choice of Dim. would answer that question. It's always easy when you think of complete pitch collections, you don't have to play them all, but you tend to at least know what your implying. And then use deceptively if you choose. You tone poll seems to be going well, nice organizing. Great vehicle for understanding jazz as well as learning tunes. Best Reg

[fep]

Hi Reg,

I agree that these threads are a great vehicle for learning/discussing theory. And I really value your participation. Like I said earlier, I think this is my favorite idea for a thread that I've seen on this forum. I think continuing this idea with new tunes is going to be something that the internet jazz guitar folks will really value.

Regarding the IVm - bVII7 - Im serving the same function as a IIm7b5 - V7alt - Im...

I'd say yes in the sense that they are both a logical and often used progression that resolves on the one. I just stumbled into it while noodling around over Blue Bossa and then recognized it as something I had recently read about.

I'm studying the book 'hearin the changes' by Jerry Coker. His 1st chapter is:

The II-V-I Progression and it's Variations
The variations are:
II-V-I in major
II-V-I in minor
II-#IIo-III
IV-#IVo-I
Tri-Tone Substituion
Back Door Progression (this is the IVm-bVII7-I in major or minor)
Coltrane Matrix
Extensions of II-V-I
Confirmation Sequence
Bebop Turnaround

[tonyknight]

Just found this tasty arrangement of BB by Freddym:

YouTube - Kanaal van freddym223

[Reg]

Very cool... but a little harmonically boring... and he's on the edge of, Guitar noodle, from my si-fi collection. Still nice arrangement and probable great to start with.
Hey Frank... since bVII7 is traditionally thought of as non-diatonic and neither SD or D, but sounds more SD because of relationship of bVIImaj.7, which is Subdominant Major chord, which usually have unstable 4th degree and not the natural 7th... anyway in jazz is termed a Sub-dominant Min. chord (all Sub-Dom.Maj. chords have a sub-dom maj. parallel). Difference between SD maj. chords and SD min. chords is b6 scale degree. So usually bVII7 has SDmin. function. All SD maj and min are common Modal interchange chords. The most common S.D.M cadences are;
IVmaj, IV-, I
IV-7, bVII7, I
bVImaj7, bIImaj7, I.
Some other SDM interchange chords are;
I-7, usually alternates with Imaj. ( going out of my head)
bIIImaj7, used in pop and jazz to precede bVImaj7, (here's that rainy day), in rock sometime used as link between I and IV.
V-7, not as common, (never say goodby)
When I solo sometimes over .. D-7 G7 Cmaj. sometimes I add as you call a backdoor II-V.... D-7 G7, F-7 Bb7, Cmaj7... opens the Modal Interchange door and so now I can deceptively resolve or actually modulate ... just some improve ideas.
Jerry Cokers approach is cool... not much BS. I dig it
Best Reg

[wizard3739]

Hiya Tony,

I went to the website of Freddym and much to my delight, found another example of an old guitar pro who sounds a lot like Barney Kessel with his very nice chord melodies. I highly recommend this guitarist to anyone who enjoys listening to the old standards done in a very professional guitar style. His jazz guitar lessons are also on the site and they are easy-to-learn lessons that can get guitar students to start playing jazz guitar very quickly.

wiz

[FatJeff]

What is his site URL?

[MGranada]

Hi FatJeff

YouTube - Kanaal van freddym223

See ya

[tonyknight]

Thanks Wizard - he may not be the most enlightened guitarist but he certainly is way beyond my jazz playing level at the moment and, as such, I'm always looking for such 'easy' (meaning accessible to me) lessons to try to accelerate the learning curve.

The biggest challenge to being a jazz guitarist is being a good non-jazz guitarist!

[tonyknight]

Hi everyone - thanks for making this a fabulous thread. I've learned an awful lot (despite lots of frustration in getting my fingers to do the walking) and I really appreciate the input from our more advanced jazzsters. I begin to see that I might one day not feel like a total novice when it comes to playing jazz standards.

I've had a few bad days due to health problems, so I haven't had the chance to correct the few issues in the 'final' (should have been penultimate) version of the analysis, nor include some of the great ideas thrown in towards the end by Reg, Frank, and others. I will try to do this asap and pass it by a few of you privately to be sure that the number of errors will be as close to zero as possible. Then, if anyone wants an updated copy, just pm me and I'll be happy to pass it along.

Looking foward to the next song :-)
Peace,
Tony

[tytlfamily]

Blue Bossa JF by tytlblues on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free


I know this is a late thread, but wanted to throw one in here. Constructive comments please!!!!

[Chri44ophe55]

Perhaps a minor Blues like "Summertime," or "Comin' Home Baby."

They lay well for guitar, and you can use pentatonic, diatonic, and George Russell lydian chromatic concepts on them.