Bending?

[KingCrimson250]

I've been wondering about string bending in jazz guitar. I know it's something that's frowned on and that you're not really "supposed" to do (unless you're playing fusion, that is) and I'm wondering why. It seems to me that bending and vibrato, if done tastefully, is one of the best ways to give the guitar the expressiveness of a horn.

I can understand if it's a physical limitation thing, but I usually use .11 and .12 flatwounds and have no problem bending a step and a half.

Anyway, I feel like the proper application of the technique can add a lot of depth to the performance, and if I'm going to offend purists by doing it then so be it, but I'm just wondering where the "anti-bending" rationale comes from

[RonD]

Hi KC250,
Not sure where you heard bending was frowned upon in jazz guitar. I heard many players do it.
An example that comes to mind, is my favorite player, Ed Bickert. You'll find that he's very highly regarded here.
Check out his solo on the tune "Just Squeeze Me" from the Paul Desmond album, Pure Desmond.
Cheers, Ron

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Django?

[Flyin' Brian]

Wes did it now and then.

Howard Roberts did it a lot...tough on those 16-60 gauge string he used.

[FatJeff]

The string bending and heavy vibrato thing are frowned upon, "just because." It's just a style thing. If you want to sound "authentic" then you will limit your use of those effects.

I questioned my instructor about this a while ago when I was chastised for over-vibrato-ing. I pointed out the wide vibrato of Sidney Bechet, but was still told not to do it. I don't think there's much reason other than tradition.

[backliner]

Barney Kessel bent plenty of notes, as did Herb Ellis.
It adds a bluesy Charlie Christian feel sometimes when in pentatonic ideas (for me).

[Flyin' Brian]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

The string bending and heavy vibrato thing are frowned upon, "just because." It's just a style thing. If you want to sound "authentic" then you will limit your use of those effects.

I questioned my instructor about this a while ago when I was chastised for over-vibrato-ing. I pointed out the wide vibrato of Sidney Bechet, but was still told not to do it. I don't think there's much reason other than tradition.

How about if we substitute one of my least favorite words, "dogma" for tradition?

If everybody wanted to sound exactly alike playing jazz, we'd still be playing banjo and only as a rhythm instrument, and bass players would still be playing tuba.

I had a VERY respected jazz guitarist and teacher tell me that he couldn't teach me as long as I only had a Strat to bring to lessons. Of course he also said that Metheny wasn't jazz. I didn't stay with him for very long.

[Tom Karol]

Here's my take on it: Bend if you want to. Don't worry about labels. I believe Miles once said, "First I'll play it; then I'll tell you what is."

I tend to slur rather than bend most of the time when I'm playing Jazz. I use 11's with a plain third, so I have have both options available. However, I love to do slow vibrato on long notes when I'm playing a ballad - sounds to me sort of like those little fluttery things at the top of the sound tubes on a vibraphone.

Play what you hear!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Pat Metheny has his own style and it includes bends, but things like pre-bends, too.

[Gramps]

When I first plugged in my new archtop jazz guitar I jokingly set the tone for gonzo rock and tried a nice big bend. The floating bridge slid sideways about an eighth of an inch. So much for being in tune.

If you hear bends in your mind and can do it....just do it.

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by KingCrimson250

... I'm just wondering where the "anti-bending" rationale comes from

Django and Charlie Christan did bends, as has been said, Eddie Lang did bends, Lonnie Johnson did bends, and these are the people who invented jazz guitar.

I'm just guessing (Mr beaumont will probably know more about this than I), but might the non-bend idea come from orchestral/big band work? In a combo, if you play a minor third and bend up to the major third, for example, and the note in between clashes with, e.g., the bass line momentarily, it doesn't matter, but if you have a whole woodwind section playing longish notes, you have more likelihood of creating some serious dissonance.

Ditto for vibrato - remember that the vibrato of a fretted string instrument like the guitar is not, in fact, 'true' vibrato. When a singer or violinist does vibrato, he goes above and below the note. A guitarist can only sharpen it (tremolo arms aside). Plus, most electric guitarists and many classical guitarists never learn to play a properly disciplined vibrato (the rate of the vibrato should bear some relationship to the pulse of the music).

[bako]

I know listening to some early jazz guitar and blues guitar players bend notes it was clear that
they were playing string guages and action setups that were uncooperative for bending.
Perhaps if anyone here was alive and paying attention to guitars in the 40's and 50's
they could speak on what options were available at the time.

Bending notes is part of the African origins of the music.
Our modern day setups can easily allow for string bending.
If it is a sound that you hear then play it.

[Dad3353]

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

...A guitarist can only sharpen it (tremolo arms aside)...

Good evening, John...
Just a detail (being 'picky'..?). One can start the note from the semitone below, and vibrato above and below the target note. Difficult to master, but 'do-able', just the same. Can be useful.
Hope this helps...

[cosmic gumbo]

Originally Posted by Dad3353

Good evening, John...
Just a detail (being 'picky'..?). One can start the note from the semitone below, and vibrato above and below the target note. Difficult to master, but 'do-able', just the same. Can be useful.
Hope this helps...

This is a frequently used mainstream blues and rock technique that isn't really very difficult to master.

[Goofsus4]

I just think jazz guitarists tend to hold themselves to a higher standard of musicality and virtuosity and bending is cheating. I'm not really talking about micro or half step bends which is really just a form of chromaticism. I'm talking about full step or greater bends and especially pre-bends. I used that stuff all the time when I played only electric rock and blues. Then when I started learning jazz I began to focus more on trying to make interesting, melodic statements without reliance on the instant emotional gratification of a bend.

This is why bending is a cheat: all a rock guitarist has to do is crank it up to 11, hold the neck, um, erect...then bend and release and bend and release while putting on his best guitar face and the panties begin flying. It's just too easy for jazz.

[Flyin' Brian]

The whole purist thing drives me nuts! I remember back in the early 60s where it was a sin to use a little reverb.

I don't believe that HR is "cheating" here at :36 and 1:12?

YouTube Video

[RonD]

Originally Posted by Goofsus4

I just think jazz guitarists tend to hold themselves to a higher standard of musicality and virtuosity and bending is cheating.

My first reaction to this statement was to fly into a tirade.
After a few moments of deep breathing... I thought it might be better to ask a few questions instead.

1. Do trumpet players consider bending in to a note or lip slurs cheating?
2. Can you name more than two or three sax players who don't bend?
3. Just how many jazz guitarists have you listened to.

I'm not trying to start a war on this. I just consider that your statement was a little inflammatory.

Cheers,
Ron

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I think it's more the case that blues guitarists and rock guitarists bend a lot, while jazz guitarists use it with more restraint (like that groovy Howard Roberts Girl Talk).

[patskywriter]

@ goofsus4
flying panties! what a funny picture that created!

of all the concerts i've been to, i don't ever remember observing any objects being thrown at (or to) musicians. too bad.

[mr. beaumont]

It's funny, folks always say "jazz players don't bend" but not only do many of them do--the only people I've ever heard say this are not jazz players!

I think the biggest reason jazz players aren't bending all over the place simply has to do with the set up of a jazz guitar. Then folks learn from their favorites who didn't bend a lot, and it eventually becomes what it is.

and John, absolutely, the guitar's role in big band music has something to do with it--we're essentially tuned percussion there--no reason to sacrifice tone and volume to put on skinny little strings so we can bend away!

personally, I like that bending is used sparingly in jazz guitar music. If I had a dollar for every rock guitar player I've heard who had no idea how to bend a note in tune (and I'm not talking about microtonal bends, or bends intentionally flat or sharp--I'm talking about cats who just can't do the shit right) --anyway, I'd buy me a L5. No reason to hear guys struggling to bend to pitch on .13 gauge flatounds, too.

[Dad3353]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

This is a frequently used mainstream blues and rock technique that isn't really very difficult to master.

Good evening, Cosmic...
I'm sorry, you're probably right, as usual; I was just speaking for myself. Apologies...

[backliner]

Bending in Blues was originally trying to emulate the sound of bottleneck playing (according to Muddy Waters, I think).
James Burton popularized it on TV behind Ricky Nelson. He used a banjo string for his high E, then shifted the others and threw out the low E in the package of strings. Others may have preceded him in this, but it was years before Ernie Ball brought out "Slinky" sets.

[cosmic gumbo]

Originally Posted by KingCrimson250

I usually use .11 and .12 flatwounds and have no problem bending a step and a half.

A step and a half with 12s? No problem? That is scary.

[Flyin' Brian]

I remember the first very thin strings I bought. They were Guild Sidewinders. What I remember the most was how awful I was about pulling everything out of tune when I played a chord.

I think that when it comes to bending in tune, Larry Carlton is the master. He practiced playing scales by bending every other note.

But I agree that a LOT of bending really doesn't work in most standard jazz tunes.

[mike walker]

Originally Posted by Goofsus4

I just think jazz guitarists tend to hold themselves to a higher standard of musicality and virtuosity and bending is cheating. I'm not really talking about micro or half step bends which is really just a form of chromaticism. I'm talking about full step or greater bends and especially pre-bends. I used that stuff all the time when I played only electric rock and blues. Then when I started learning jazz I began to focus more on trying to make interesting, melodic statements without reliance on the instant emotional gratification of a bend.

This is why bending is a cheat: all a rock guitarist has to do is crank it up to 11, hold the neck, um, erect...then bend and release and bend and release while putting on his best guitar face and the panties begin flying. It's just too easy for jazz.

Exactly.

Another thing is slurring. What is the point? This is Jazz guitar, not 'Slur guitar'. I'm not too fond of legato in jazz either (or pull offs). Picking every note is where real jazz guitar belongs. Accenting the offbeats etc with a swing based on the triplet.
Something else that i find a little distressing, is Chordal playing that uses stretchy type chords with minor 2nds and 'weird' chords.

Try to avoid too much bluesy playing. I know that a lot of Jazz is blues based but i don't really like the blues.

Piano is my favorite instrument. Try bending those suckers!!!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by mike walker

Piano is my favorite instrument. Try bending those suckers!!!

Remember when electric keyboards came out with a pitch bending control at the end of the keyboard? Players went nuts with that. Then there was that synth that you strapped on like a guitar.

[fep]

lol... I think.

I'm confused.

I think there's about a 25% chance Goofus was joking.

And I think there's about a 99% chance Mike was joking.

Not completely sure.

[Flyin' Brian]

I remember when Gary Burton was using a technique that sounded like bending on vibes. Harder to bend than piano keys. Of course he also tried electronic vibes through a fuzz. Bleechhh.

[docbop]

Originally Posted by mike walker

Piano is my favorite instrument. Try bending those suckers!!!

Reminds me of when I hired Mike Miller (great guitarist used to play with Chick Corea) to do a guitar clinic. Clinic was winding down and someone ask Mike who his favorite guitarist was, he said Bill Evans. That caught all the students off guard. Then he play some amazing chord melody and originals.

[max_power]

I played blues before I played jazz, but when I play jazz I rarely find opportunities in which it would sound good to bend notes by more than half a step. I suppose that if I specifically practiced bending within a jazz context I would be able to do it more often, but this is one of those things that takes a good amount of practice time in order to do it well - and I don't have a whole lot of time to practice. What would be a more productive use of my time, spending an hour a day practicing bending in a jazz context or spending an hour a day transcribing/practicing a Charlie Parker solo? I tend to lean towards the latter.