Bebop scale question

[Greenwat]

Hi

I got the books how to play bebop 1 2 and 3 by David Baker a little while ago.

They are very good but there's a few thing in them that i dont fully understand, so i hope you guys could help me out

David barker writes that over minor 7th ii chords we should use the bebop dominant scale a fourth above, for example on a on a ii-V progression in C we should use G bebop dom scale for both chords.
But when i do this my playing sounds the same when the chord goes from ii to V it doesn't sound like i play the changes since i use the same scale like if i would have used dorian for the ii chord.

Could you give me some tips on how i can play the changes and still use the same scale for both, or could you tell me another way to do it?

And do you think this is a good book for learning bebop?

help is very appricited

Sorry for my English ^^

Thanks!!

[derek]

The suggestion of playing off the V over both the ii and the V is a common device for playing ii V. Think about it. First in a ii V I, the ii is actually the V of the V, so using your example in C, D-7, G7, CM7. D is the V of G, so G dominant over both works just fine.

The other thing to think about, is when playing bebop, you are usually playing at bright tempos, and don't always have time to address every chord written, so this is an easier way to do it. Joe Pass taught this and used this device very often. Pat Martino takes the opposite approach, and plays minor stuff more than dominant stuff, so more along the lines of playing ii, ignoring V. Just depends on what you want to hear.

[Greenwat]

Originally Posted by derek

The suggestion of playing off the V over both the ii and the V is a common device for playing ii V. Think about it. First in a ii V I, the ii is actually the V of the V, so using your example in C, D-7, G7, CM7. D is the V of G, so G dominant over both works just fine.

The other thing to think about, is when playing bebop, you are usually playing at bright tempos, and don't always have time to address every chord written, so this is an easier way to do it. Joe Pass taught this and used this device very often. Pat Martino takes the opposite approach, and plays minor stuff more than dominant stuff, so more along the lines of playing ii, ignoring V. Just depends on what you want to hear.

Thanks for the reply! Yea, I've noticed that joe pass doesn't always address the chords, but it seems like charlie parker, dizzy gillespie and other bebop giants always plays the changes, do they use the bebop scale dominant sound on both ii and V or do you know what approach they use to improvising.

+ do you have any suggestion to some bebop solos i could transcribe? instrument doesn't matter

Thanks

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by Greenwat

Thanks for the reply! Yea, I've noticed that joe pass doesn't always address the chords, but it seems like charlie parker, dizzy gillespie and other bebop giants always plays the changes, do they use the bebop scale dominant sound on both ii and V or do you know what approach they use to improvising.

+ do you have any suggestion to some bebop solos i could transcribe? instrument doesn't matter

Thanks

There's a bunch of folks around here that will tell you to avoid too much time learning ANY scales. Their point is that all the great Bebop soloists, Bird, Stitt, Rollins, Dexter, Moody etc were far more conscious of melodies and patterns borne out of arpeggios and passing chromatics as well as harmonic extensions and substitutes. But I like the Baker books, I think they are the best for bebop, and I think that learning the bebop scales helps you gain the feel and momentum of always hitting chord tones on down beats. He drills them for you so they get stuck in your head, like it should.
Regarding the different bebop scales, basically treat the ii and the V as interchangeable. I know it runs counter to the many rules of bebop and jazz in general, but IT IS the language, try it, you'll soon hear it's familiar sound. What is going on is that the g,b,d and f have the d and f in common with Dm7, but the g and b create a 4th and 6th. Now 6th's are no problem, they always will sound "in", but the 4th here is actually a cool sound. 4ths are bad against Maj and Dom chords, but ok against minor. The G dom bebop scale lands g,b,d f against both the Dm7 and the G7 and you hear the c from the Dm7 chord gently rubbing against the b in you scale (or arp) but only as though the background chord were playing G7sus4 and you ignored the c. It works because the tension from the b wants to eventually resolve to the c in the I chord (whether it arrives or not), you just start this tension a chord earlier than when the G7 arrives. The more you transcribe bebop solos, the more you see this, it's VERY common.

[jeffstritt]

The bebop scale is just like the blues scale. The greats didn't nesecarily use that scale, but educators assimilated it out o0f their playing. Kind of a back track if you will.

Also, Just with anything else, you don't have to follow the rules exactly. Bebop is wild exciting music with tons of energy, not an exercise from a book. ;-)

Best of luck !

[derek]

Originally Posted by Greenwat

Thanks for the reply! Yea, I've noticed that joe pass doesn't always address the chords, but it seems like charlie parker, dizzy gillespie and other bebop giants always plays the changes, do they use the bebop scale dominant sound on both ii and V or do you know what approach they use to improvising.

+ do you have any suggestion to some bebop solos i could transcribe? instrument doesn't matter

Thanks

More than transcribing bebop solos, if you are wanting to get into the genre, I would learn as many Charlie Parker heads as I could. They are a goldmine of bop licks, and really solidly part of the bebop language at this point. Always the best starting point imo.

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by derek

More than transcribing bebop solos, if you are wanting to get into the genre, I would learn as many Charlie Parker heads as I could. They are a goldmine of bop licks, and really solidly part of the bebop language at this point. Always the best starting point imo.

People are always saying this, but aren't you missing some great lines that only appear in the solos? Besides, a lot of the head material is quite angular and rythmically complex. A little of this is a great thing, but too much of it in your solos might be, well, too much!, for both the player and the listener.... your solos will sound like heads, no?

[jeffstritt]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

People are always saying this, but aren't you missing some great lines that only appear in the solos? Besides, a lot of the head material is quite angular and rythmically complex. A little of this is a great thing, but too much of it in your solos might be, well, too much!, for both the player and the listener.... your solos will sound like heads, no?

Well, just like with any other tune, if you want to play it, you have to be able to play the melody. So while you are doing the work to learn the melody, doesn't it make sense to go ahead and do a little analysis and figure out how the writer created those lines? You don't have to quote the lines in your solos or anything, but if you are trying to learn to play bebop wouldn't learning Charlie Parker melodies be helpfull? By analyzing the melodies you can learn the mechanics of the genre, and then you can spin that a million different ways.

[Greenwat]

Thanks for the explaination priceplant, it makes sence to me now and thanks to the other replys aswell . I will transcribe some bird heads and solos, but should I do it by ear or using Sibelius, I usually transcribe by ear but then I'm not so analytycal and I don't learn so much I think. I've never transcribed a solo on paper before, got any tips? . I'm typing on my iPod so sorry for possible grammar mistakes

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by Greenwat

Thanks for the explaination priceplant, it makes sence to me now and thanks to the other replys aswell . I will transcribe some bird heads and solos, but should I do it by ear or using Sibelius, I usually transcribe by ear but then I'm not so analytycal and I don't learn so much I think. I've never transcribed a solo on paper before, got any tips? . I'm typing on my iPod so sorry for possible grammar mistakes

My tip is to write it down for analysis purposes, but memorize fave bits for playing purposes. Oh, and be prepared for it to be a s -l -o -w process. Especially the analysis part....

[Greenwat]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

My tip is to write it down for analysis purposes, but memorize fave bits for playing purposes. Oh, and be prepared for it to be a s -l -o -w process. Especially the analysis part....

Thansk man! I will