Practising jazz standards in different keys

[John A.]

John's summary of the usual key info is my experience as well. But I still practice 12 keys (more on soloing than comping, but some of both). I started doing it when I began playing a lot of Brazilian music, which is sometimes written in guitar friendly keys that you don't see often in the GASB. And, the songs modulate a lot, so it's not unusual to be playing in non-GASB keys. And, with transpositions being cranked out electronically by notation software, you see a good deal of G#, C# and even the occasional A# or D# (and so forth). So, I decided to work on those keys. For me, I find that it builds fluency. Would I teach it? Not necessarily.

From the perspective of learning music from a chart, a key is a key to me. It doesn't matter to me whether it's written as G# or Ab. When it comes to improvisation, I guess I'm a little unusual in that I find it fairly easy to blow on a familiar tune in an unfamiliar key. To comp without a chart, I actually have to think about it (me no think so good), and I practice in other keys to minimize the risk of having to do that.

John

[gunksman]

The original melody to I Got Rhythm is a great way to dip ones toes into this. Super easy

[jaco]

Something related that I've started trying is pick a key without looking at the neck. So I don't (hopefully) know what key I'm in. (with the guitar you usually have kind of an idea where you are) then play the melody. Then the harmony. I think I read somewhere Pat Metheny would have his students learn "All the Things You Are" in every key etc. There's a video of Julian Lage and Bill Frisell where Bill calls out a tune and Lage says "what key".

[christianm77]

Something related that I've started trying is pick a key without looking at the neck. So I don't (hopefully) know what key I'm in. (with the guitar you usually have kind of an idea where you are) then play the melody. Then the harmony. I think I read somewhere Pat Metheny would have his students learn "All the Things You Are" in every key etc. There's a video of Julian Lage and Bill Frisell where Bill calls out a tune and Lage says "what key".

Well I do that as well. So it’s nice be like Lage in one small way lol

Not to be a smart Alec... i learn things by ear now so often I don’t know what key people play things in.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm curious about whether players who know, say 100 tunes which they can play in any key, actually are thinking about Roman Numerals or any other linguistic strategy. That is, as opposed to simply hearing the sound of the tune in their mind and being able to find the right notes.

My impression of my own struggle is that trying to do it with the Roman Numeral type approach (or bandstand shorthand) may have actually interfered with learning standards in 12 keys.

What seems to have worked better was the approach I outlined earlier -- if I don't know the next chord, I play a little line until I can hear enough of the chord to be able to comp something.

Of course, everybody's abilities are different, so maybe a lot of people will say they know the numerals or shorthand instructions for a zillion tunes.

[christianm77]

I'm curious about whether players who know, say 100 tunes which they can play in any key, actually are thinking about Roman Numerals or any other linguistic strategy. That is, as opposed to simply hearing the sound of the tune in their mind and being able to find the right notes.

My impression of my own struggle is that trying to do it with the Roman Numeral type approach (or bandstand shorthand) may have actually interfered with learning standards in 12 keys.

What seems to have worked better was the approach I outlined earlier -- if I don't know the next chord, I play a little line until I can hear enough of the chord to be able to comp something.

Of course, everybody's abilities are different, so maybe a lot of people will say they know the numerals or shorthand instructions for a zillion tunes.

Yeah, but when someones shouting the changes in your ear on a gig, or signalling it with their fingers, it helps to know the numerals.

[rpjazzguitar]

Yeah, but when someones shouting the changes in your ear on a gig, or signalling it with their fingers, it helps to know the numerals.

Playing a jazz gig successfully requires a lot of individual skills. The guitar, the gear, the songs, the interaction with the band, the audience, the promoter etc. And, every time I play a different type of gig, I learn something new, or, it might be better to say I find out about something I should have known.

But back to learning standards. It may be too soon to tell, but after years of struggling with it with limited success, I feel like a breakthrough is underway.

And, it resulted from discarding all the usual advice about roman numbers and bandstand shorthand. Instead, the idea is to go entirely by ear -- and when I'm not sure about the next chord to play a little line until I find some notes.

I noticed the following:

It doesn't work unless I can hear the entire tune clearly in my mind. If I can't, I sometimes find myself inadvertently getting into the wrong key somewhere in the middle of the tune.

I can usually find a ii V by hearing the movement of the 7th of the iim to the 3rd of the V7. So, if it's Am7 to D7, it's the G to F#.

For a m7b5, it's usually hearing the b5 at the top of the chord. Typically, that leads to a minor ii V im.

For major to minor on the same root, it's hearing 3 to b3.

For tunes that modulate from m7 up a minor 3rd, I can hear that.

For significant key changes, it may require playing a chromatic run until something sounds right.

To practice it, I suggest starting randomly and not thinking about the key. Although, in the moment, knowing the key can help, for example, you can tell a iii VI ii V I is coming up .... knowing the key means you know where the iii is.

The fundamental idea is that you have to be able to connect the sound in your mind to the movement of your fingers -- and inserting a linguistic process in the middle can get in the way. I'm thinking it has to be based entirely on sound and as unconscious as possible.

[coolvinny]

I'm curious about whether players who know, say 100 tunes which they can play in any key, actually are thinking about Roman Numerals or any other linguistic strategy. That is, as opposed to simply hearing the sound of the tune in their mind and being able to find the right notes.

My impression of my own struggle is that trying to do it with the Roman Numeral type approach (or bandstand shorthand) may have actually interfered with learning standards in 12 keys.

What seems to have worked better was the approach I outlined earlier -- if I don't know the next chord, I play a little line until I can hear enough of the chord to be able to comp something.

Of course, everybody's abilities are different, so maybe a lot of people will say they know the numerals or shorthand instructions for a zillion tunes.

Numerals I guess: e.g. it goes to iv, 3-6-2-5, a ii-v to III or iiii, starts on II then ii-v to I, etc these are just separate examples. Some of it is sound based too, but I think it mostly comes from understanding the harmony of the tune. Thinking functional harmony is also helpful when transposing a standard you don't know to a vocalist's key from a Real Book chart on the fly, or reading from a horn player's chart. Basically the same skill.

[Jonah]

I'm curious about whether players who know, say 100 tunes which they can play in any key, actually are thinking about Roman Numerals or any other linguistic strategy. That is, as opposed to simply hearing the sound of the tune in their mind and being able to find the right notes.

As you say abilities and background are different...

I do not take keys equally.. I mean I find keys have different colours and character (maybe it's connected with guitaristic thing - that on guitar the keys have different routes (though I play piano too), maybe with lots of playing in irregular temperaments of early music)...
I always- since I was a kid - associated keys with colours.. like Eb is deep sea green-blue, full rich, and E is heavy green, also rich but a little harch (bluesy too), D is clear blue mostly, a bit light hearted... etc.
(Actually strange enough many pof these characteristics were confirmed when I began to play early music - I do not why actually, some cultural iherintance? Because in modern equal temperament only absolute pitch is different (at least on piano and guitar)

So anyways.. for me it's like I have to find its special way for the tune in every next key...

Of course in real context there are some tips - and you have to do this or that on the spot etc.
I can transpose usually - but - let's say so - to certain degree of complexity)))

But speaking about serious practice I really have to play the tune into the key...

[rpjazzguitar]

I can't recall ever feeling like I discovered something that would be all that worthwhile to others, given the huge numbers of great musicians and teachers that have gone before.

But for me, this approach to finding the next chord in a tune seems to have solved a problem I struggled with for years.

I don't know for certain if it will be helpful to anyone else. It may be too dependent on the abilities, or lack thereof, that one brings to it.

What I've been working on is thinking of tunes I haven't played much, if at all, but which I know well.

Below, I have described how it went for one of the tunes in excruciating detail. Don't say you weren't warned. It might be a good idea to stop reading now.

So, for example, I picked I Left My Heart In San Francisco. I can sing it, lyrics and all. And, I know the right chord when I hear it.

I started, at random, in Bb. I could tell it started on the tonic by sound, and I could tell it went to a ii V7 in Bb next.

I played a couple of notes, C and Eb and recognized that the tune stayed on the ii V. I could hear the descending line, C B Bb A (root, nat 7 to make minmaj, m7 etc) because it's such a common device. We're up to "it calls to me", with the tonic on "me".

Then, "to be where" requires another shift. I played a D note. I didn't hear the G7, but I was playing the melody on "to be where" which is chromatic D up to F, and when I hit the F I could hear that it wanted to be the 3rd of a Dm7. That is, I could tell that if I played x5756x, it would fit. I then thought it sounded like another m minmaj m7 m6 kind of thing on Dm - twice. That's not what the chart says, but it's close enough to avoid an angry mob.

The melody went to Bb on "sun" (from "morning sun) which sounded like the top note in xx5766. I could hear that it would be part of a ii V (Gm7 C7). I went to xx8755. That led to the F and I thought I heard an F7aug for the turnaround. That's not what's in the chart, but it does sort of fit.

Then it's repetition until "and windy sea". "Sea is clearly a chord change so I played a few notes of melody, arriving at a high D". It sounded to me like xx 10 12 10 10 -- then dropping the G to an F#.

Another time I played the high D with my pinkie and a G on the second string, which I alternated with the F#. That worked too.


Now, you could think of that as Am7 to D7, but, at the moment, I wasn't thinking about chord names at all, which is the whole point.

I shifted that grip down a fret and back for for "when I come". For "home" I could tell that the melody went to an Eb. Later, I just dropped my second finger onto it (Am7b5), but at the time I didn't know what the chord might be. So, I played a lick starting on high F. F Eb D C and I could hear B and Ab. When I got to G, I could head that it was a G7 chord with an Eb on top. I played xx9 10 8 11 and dropped my pinkie on the Eb.

"San Fran" involved moving the pinkie from Eb to D and I could hear that it was begging to go to C7.
I wasn't sure of "morning sun", but I realized I'd be back to the tonic at the end of the phrase, so it had to be a ii V I in Bb.

So, the trick for this tune was being able to play the melody and use it to find a note in the chord I was looking for. From that note, I was able to fill in a note, or several, that made the chord happen.

I hope that somebody else tries this approach and posts to say whether or not it was helpful.

[Jonah]

Playing a jazz gig successfully requires a lot of individual skills. The guitar, the gear, the songs, the interaction with the band, the audience, the promoter etc. And, every time I play a different type of gig, I learn something new, or, it might be better to say I find out about something I should have known.

But back to learning standards. It may be too soon to tell, but after years of struggling with it with limited success, I feel like a breakthrough is underway.

And, it resulted from discarding all the usual advice about roman numbers and bandstand shorthand. Instead, the idea is to go entirely by ear -- and when I'm not sure about the next chord to play a little line until I find some notes.

I noticed the following:

It doesn't work unless I can hear the entire tune clearly in my mind. If I can't, I sometimes find myself inadvertently getting into the wrong key somewhere in the middle of the tune.

I can usually find a ii V by hearing the movement of the 7th of the iim to the 3rd of the V7. So, if it's Am7 to D7, it's the G to F#.

For a m7b5, it's usually hearing the b5 at the top of the chord. Typically, that leads to a minor ii V im.

For major to minor on the same root, it's hearing 3 to b3.

For tunes that modulate from m7 up a minor 3rd, I can hear that.

For significant key changes, it may require playing a chromatic run until something sounds right.

To practice it, I suggest starting randomly and not thinking about the key. Although, in the moment, knowing the key can help, for example, you can tell a iii VI ii V I is coming up .... knowing the key means you know where the iii is.

The fundamental idea is that you have to be able to connect the sound in your mind to the movement of your fingers -- and inserting a linguistic process in the middle can get in the way. I'm thinking it has to be based entirely on sound and as unconscious as possible.

I like it .. it reminds me learning practical cadences learning of different types in classical... when it's not that much in theory but just a few basic rules you have to follow but these rules are all about very essential qualities of a cadence or turnaround... so you get more and more into hearing it and feel more and more free to break it when needed.

It's important to be able to hear essential notes in harmonies and turnarounds (not necessarily every single note)...

I keep learning...

[don_oz]

just gonna leave this here..

[basinstreet]

It was this issue, more than any other, that led me away from a career in music. .

True, but if i followed this logic I wouldnt play music OR have a career

[coolvinny]

I can't recall ever feeling like I discovered something that would be all that worthwhile to others, given the huge numbers of great musicians and teachers that have gone before.

But for me, this approach to finding the next chord in a tune seems to have solved a problem I struggled with for years.

I don't know for certain if it will be helpful to anyone else. It may be too dependent on the abilities, or lack thereof, that one brings to it.

What I've been working on is thinking of tunes I haven't played much, if at all, but which I know well.

Below, I have described how it went for one of the tunes in excruciating detail. Don't say you weren't warned. It might be a good idea to stop reading now.

So, for example, I picked I Left My Heart In San Francisco. I can sing it, lyrics and all. And, I know the right chord when I hear it.

I started, at random, in Bb. I could tell it started on the tonic by sound, and I could tell it went to a ii V7 in Bb next.

I played a couple of notes, C and Eb and recognized that the tune stayed on the ii V. I could hear the descending line, C B Bb A (root, nat 7 to make minmaj, m7 etc) because it's such a common device. We're up to "it calls to me", with the tonic on "me".

Then, "to be where" requires another shift. I played a D note. I didn't hear the G7, but I was playing the melody on "to be where" which is chromatic D up to F, and when I hit the F I could hear that it wanted to be the 3rd of a Dm7. That is, I could tell that if I played x5756x, it would fit. I then thought it sounded like another m minmaj m7 m6 kind of thing on Dm - twice. That's not what the chart says, but it's close enough to avoid an angry mob.

The melody went to Bb on "sun" (from "morning sun) which sounded like the top note in xx5766. I could hear that it would be part of a ii V (Gm7 C7). I went to xx8755. That led to the F and I thought I heard an F7aug for the turnaround. That's not what's in the chart, but it does sort of fit.

Then it's repetition until "and windy sea". "Sea is clearly a chord change so I played a few notes of melody, arriving at a high D". It sounded to me like xx 10 12 10 10 -- then dropping the G to an F#.

Another time I played the high D with my pinkie and a G on the second string, which I alternated with the F#. That worked too.


Now, you could think of that as Am7 to D7, but, at the moment, I wasn't thinking about chord names at all, which is the whole point.

I shifted that grip down a fret and back for for "when I come". For "home" I could tell that the melody went to an Eb. Later, I just dropped my second finger onto it (Am7b5), but at the time I didn't know what the chord might be. So, I played a lick starting on high F. F Eb D C and I could hear B and Ab. When I got to G, I could head that it was a G7 chord with an Eb on top. I played xx9 10 8 11 and dropped my pinkie on the Eb.

"San Fran" involved moving the pinkie from Eb to D and I could hear that it was begging to go to C7.
I wasn't sure of "morning sun", but I realized I'd be back to the tonic at the end of the phrase, so it had to be a ii V I in Bb.

So, the trick for this tune was being able to play the melody and use it to find a note in the chord I was looking for. From that note, I was able to fill in a note, or several, that made the chord happen.

I hope that somebody else tries this approach and posts to say whether or not it was helpful.

I'm curious: does that approach also work for you when it's time to take a solo? Can you play that tune (head etc) in Bb then improvise and be aware of the changes while improvising?

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm curious: does that approach also work for you when it's time to take a solo? Can you play that tune (head etc) in Bb then improvise and be aware of the changes while improvising?

I find playing melody and soloing much easier than remembering chords. If I know the melody of a tune I can play it in any key. I might have to fudge a note or two.

Generally, I can solo on a tune that I know well - in any key. When the harmonic movement overwhelms my ability to be sure of the next note ... then I use the same strategy. Play a little line until I find the notes in the next chord. Sometimes even return to the melody.

I guess it comes down to what "being aware" of the changes means. What I'm trying to get away from is needing to know them by name. I'm thinking that being able to "hear"/imagine the sound of the chord that's coming up and then finding it without linguistic mediation is the way that people who can play hundreds of tunes in any key do it.

Example: the chord coming next is, say, Dm7. You don't know that, but you play a little line, eventually reaching F -- and instantly know that x5756x is going to work. And then, you can hear/feel/imagine that it's moving to G7 next. Or, you can hear/feel/imagine that it's going up a m3 to Fm7. Or, you can tell that the bass note is rising and you can tell that the chord is going to be characterized by a Bb which is a b5 ... and you know that xx5756 is going to sound right.

I've been working on this for several weeks. I'm now able to get the older fashioned swing tunes pretty well in any key. But only for tunes I know well. If I don't know the tune and I'm playing solo, I sometimes end up in a different key, inadvertently.

When the changes are more adventurous it's harder, but, knowing the tune really well helps.

I've read people recommending knowing lyrics for years without, I think, fully understanding why. When I can sing the tune, not scatting, but with the lyric, that's a tune I know well enough to not need a chart.

[coolvinny]

I find playing melody and soloing much easier than remembering chords. If I know the melody of a tune I can play it in any key. I might have to fudge a note or two.

Generally, I can solo on a tune that I know well - in any key. When the harmonic movement overwhelms my ability to be sure of the next note ... then I use the same strategy. Play a little line until I find the notes in the next chord. Sometimes even return to the melody.

I guess it comes down to what "being aware" of the changes means. What I'm trying to get away from is needing to know them by name. I'm thinking that being able to "hear"/imagine the sound of the chord that's coming up and then finding it without linguistic mediation is the way that people who can play hundreds of tunes in any key do it.

Example: the chord coming next is, say, Dm7. You don't know that, but you play a little line, eventually reaching F -- and instantly know that x5756x is going to work. And then, you can hear/feel/imagine that it's moving to G7 next. Or, you can hear/feel/imagine that it's going up a m3 to Fm7. Or, you can tell that the bass note is rising and you can tell that the chord is going to be characterized by a Bb which is a b5 ... and you know that xx5756 is going to sound right.

I've been working on this for several weeks. I'm now able to get the older fashioned swing tunes pretty well in any key. But only for tunes I know well. If I don't know the tune and I'm playing solo, I sometimes end up in a different key, inadvertently.

When the changes are more adventurous it's harder, but, knowing the tune really well helps.

I've read people recommending knowing lyrics for years without, I think, fully understanding why. When I can sing the tune, not scatting, but with the lyric, that's a tune I know well enough to not need a chart.

Hmmm. Ok. I'm sure this approach has some value, but I don't see it working well for taking a solo or comping someone else's solo.