Interesting Repertoire Discovery - Can I Even Be a Jazz Guitarist?

[Cunamara]

So, for 7 years I was in an attempted jazz quintet. We were/are all pretty much hacks, but nice guys to hang out with. The subtext here is that I actively dislike playing gigs for a variety of reasons. The social aspect kept me in the band longer than the musical aspect should have, and we ended the band after a particularly heinous gig. Bands have a shelf life, it seems.

The sax player from my old band contacted me in somewhat desperate straits. He has a new band, his regular guitarist has a hand injury and his regular pianist is unavailable. He knows I don't want to gig but asked if I'd fill in on a one-time basis. I said OK- he's a really nice guy and I like him a lot. So tonight I am running through the set list in advance of rehearsal. It's all Real Book stuff, mostly show tunes and 30s-40s pop. I discovered something- I really dislike playing most of that stuff. I find them insipid and boring. I hate the predictable cycles of ii-V-I slogging around the circle of 5th (or 4ths, whichever tickles your fancy). The Real Book tunes that are "jazz" tunes are mostly fine, they have turns and surprises. But I hate playing 70-80 year old show tunes. All The Things You Are makes me want to retch. I am surprised by how strong my feelings are on this.

So, since these old moldy figs are the repertoire of jazz- does that mean I really can't consider myself a jazz guitarist? People like Bill Evans and Pat Metheny talk about jazz as a process or an approchnrather than a repertoire, but... Go to almost any gig and these tunes are what is played. These are the songs jazz musicians call on the bandstand because they are the lingua franca of jazz. And I just hate playing them. Probably just as well I don't enjoy gigging and won't ever end up on stage with real jazz musicians anyway...

[cosmic gumbo]

I hear you. Give me Miles, Mingus, Trane, Wayne and Herbie compositions, and the musical children they spawned. That's my aesthetic.

I've played in big bands for a dozen years and have come to appreciate those tunes as arrangements in that context, it's a great feeling making music in a group that size but not my choice of stuff to play in a combo setting. Preferably, I'd even lean closer to playing free/avante stuff than GAS (great American songbook).

I understand the importance of those tunes as part of the tradition, but I'll always prefer jazz tunes written by jazz composers as jazz.

I do recall the the jazz rift in the early 80's when Wynton and many of his peers started playing the old acoustic standards/style again, and they were being hailed as the young lions of jazz, and they were going to save it, but mostly other progressive jazz musicians looked at it as a step backward, and resented all the media hoopla it was attracting.

Wynton used it as a platform to badmouth the current electric jazz musicians, claiming it wasn't really jazz. I feel he did a real disservice to the genre, and put a big damper on the natural progression of jazz by shaming a lot of music publicly. There are some that say he did do jazz a service, because his rhetoric helped get jazz more attention...look at him now as jazz's highest paid advocate, educator and curator.

I'd rather pour my heart out on something like Impressions with a wailing tele than hit all the changes on All Of Me with a clean archtop. I love and respect the tradition and all that great music, but the last 20 years I've seen too many so called jazz musicians just become archivists, with nothing new to add or say, and it has everything to do with the perceived jazz environment.

On the other hand, I heard more new, challenging, ass kicking, mind blowing, virtuosic jazz being produced now than ever in history...what a paradox. Be brave, look backward, but move forward...

[yaclaus]

I get your point, but the things you can do with your vocabulary on any tune can make it fresh. ATTYA is amazing when played by Lage Lund or Brad Mehldau IMO.

[citizenk74]

Bands do have a shelf life, and burning out on the same ol' same ol' is par for the course. Take some time off, relax, play some stuff that you like. Life is too short to waste. Spend some time with your family and friends. I once spent the first three days of a much needed Outer Banks vacation obsessing about work. I then spent the next three days obsessing about the band. Something had to give. I went home and gave notice to the band. Sure, there were other bands later, other gigs, etc. But I went into them knowing nothing lasts forever, and when the rewards cease to outweigh the risks, it's time to move on. Good luck!

[lawson-stone]

I hear you. Give me Miles, Mingus, Trane, Wayne and Herbie compositions, and the musical children they spawned. That's my aesthetic.

I've played in big bands for a dozen years and have come to appreciate those tunes as arrangements in that context, it's a great feeling making music in a group that size but not my choice of stuff to play in a combo setting. Preferably, I'd even lean closer to playing free/avante stuff than GAS (great American songbook).

I understand the importance of those tunes as part of the tradition, but I'll always prefer jazz tunes written by jazz composers as jazz.

I do recall the the jazz rift in the early 80's when Wynton and many of his peers started playing the old acoustic standards/style again, and they were being hailed as the young lions of jazz, and they were going to save it, but mostly other progressive jazz musicians looked at it as a step backward, and resented all the media hoopla it was attracting.

Wynton used it as a platform to badmouth the current electric jazz musicians, claiming it wasn't really jazz. I feel he did a real disservice to the genre, and put a big damper on the natural progression of jazz by shaming a lot of music publicly. There are some that say he did do jazz a service, because his rhetoric helped get jazz more attention...look at him now as jazz's highest paid advocate, educator and curator.

I'd rather pour my heart out on something like Impressions with a wailing tele than hit all the changes on All Of Me with a clean archtop. I love and respect the tradition and all that great music, but the last 20 years I've seen too many so called jazz musicians just become archivists, with nothing new to add or say, and it has everything to do with the perceived jazz environment.

On the other hand, I heard more new, challenging, ass kicking, mind blowing, virtuosic jazz being produced now than ever in history...what a paradox. Be brave, look backward, but move forward...

While I have exactly the opposite view or feeling about standards and the tradition as you, I think your analysis here is totally correct. I fear that jazz at its leading edge, though, is losing its audience. I don’t know the answer, but still appreciated your take on the situation.


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[mr. beaumont]

Well, you could play standards in a stodgy, take no chances group, and yeah, it'll be boring. Might not even be jazz, really, folks just phoning it in, or whatever.

Or, you could play...

If standards are boring...the problem isn't the tune.

[lawson-stone]

Well, you could play standards in a stodgy, take no chances group, and yeah, it'll be boring. Might not even be jazz, really, folks just phoning it in, or whatever.

Or, you could play...


If standards are boring...the problem isn't the tune.

Even "phoning it in" takes a level of talent and ability. Every time I try to phone it in, I get the "Number out of service" message!

[Melodic Dreamer]

On the other hand, I heard more new, challenging, ass kicking, mind blowing, virtuosic jazz being produced now than ever in history...what a paradox. Be brave, look backward, but move forward...

There is a lot of what you said I agree with, maybe not as passionately though. I guess I feel that I am somewhere in the middle. I have played gigs with guys that play every song kind of the same and everything feels locked to a particular way of playing jazz. This gets old really quick. I have also played traditional gigs that never push new boundaries, but absolutely bring out some beautiful music, improve., and camaraderie between musicians.

So maybe I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I am curious about one thing I see many players refer to. Why does ass kicking or mind blowing seam to be so important? I get it from a straight entertainment point of view, but from a sheer love for a music those attributes are not important. I believe some musicians could care less about pushing boundaries and enjoy playing what they like.

[plasticpigeon]

Even "phoning it in" takes a level of talent and ability. Every time I try to phone it in, I get the "Number out of service" message!

Hilarious! I tyhink you are being a bit modest, but i feel exactly the same way!

[JGinNJ]

I'm guessing you have a day job and were doing this just for fun and the social reasons you describe. I've been in the same situation quite a bit in the last few years, and I wasn't even playing much jazz.

I played at a weekly 3 chord classic rock jam with some semi-retirees for a while, and when that got old, they could tell, and pointed me towards an acoustic meetup (also not my bag, but worth a try). Then an old buddy, sax player, got a monthly gig at a bar, and we had a rotating cast of characters & material, with rock tunes and Latin boogaloo. After a couple of years that wasn't any fun anymore. I did some open mics solo, and backed up a singer/songwriter. That was good experience, and people seemed to like it- the jazz guitar tone was something different for that audience. I like to play acoustic, blues & roots material, too, and I was going to a bluegrass jam for a while, too. Then I found a rehearsal big band, and since I also play trumpet and they already had a guitar player, I was sightreading 2nd & 3rd trumpet. The guitar parts were really boring anyway, so it was just as well.

But bringing it back to jazz, for years all I played was standards and bebop, I seldom left the house with it, and I got bored. I got into the acoustic fingerpicking thing more, probably didn't even play ATTYA for 10 years. If I hadn't branched out and tried the other things I mentioned, I wouldn't have had the experiences in learning different kinds of tunes, playing with others who aren't jazz musicians, in different situations. Those experiences actually brought me back to appreciating and playing jazz, at least on my own, that much more.

All this is to say, if you're just doing it for fun and the experience, once you've gotten the experience and it's not fun anymore, don't do it. Stop playing ATTYA and no one else will care anyway.

[jazzbow]

Show tunes in a jazz setting are the basis of understanding for both musicians and audience.
Like when you hear a live recording of a well used tune and the audience applaud when they hear a melody-reference point in a solo.
Then the applause after showing the appreciation of the musicianship of the soloist/band.

Yes, playing the old tunes time after time is boring. I protested against the tune 'Sultans of Swing' as part of a repertoire. To me its just a guitar wank-fest. I was shouted down by the band leader saying 'its what the audience likes'. I said Dire Straits does it better than we ever would so why bother, but I do see his point.

I do like the interesting take on modern tunes played in a vintage style, Postmodern Jukebox for instance. I also like the way they promote individual soloists too. That whole thing plays/pays well for the millennial audience, a kind of 'self-aware metro-central 21st Centuary self gratifying Jack Horner plumb on thumb' thing.

As far as changing one's own repertoire to something a little modern I do that too. Finding that there's really nothing new just the same old progressions means you can mix it up. My most recent revelation is the tune 'Crazy' by Gnarls Barclay fits so well with 'My Funny Valentine'.

Cool Bananas......

[Rob MacKillop]

What do you REALLY want to play? And can you find musicians to play it with? That's all that matters, not the history of jazz.

[fep]

The subtext here is that I actively dislike playing gigs for a variety of reasons.

Ha, I also don't like gigs for a variety of reasons, especially if it's jazz. So, I just don't do it.

[Hep To The Jive]

I love those 30-40's tunes, and 20's too! Not necessarily ATTYA, which is way too nerdy, but there are tons of more obscure fun tunes. I also love simple harmonies, because I can focus more on rhythm and sonic aspects of playing. I like Miles and Trane and Herbie stuff too of course- the JAZZ' jazz- but more as a listener.

Those tunes are just vehicles, you can make them your own!

Anyway, if you dont want the gig, I'll take it

[AlsoRan]

I am getting the impression that if you play a particular song enough, there is a good chance you will eventually hate it. The same goes for a style of music.

This is probably especially true of people who are true artists, who by nature, are always looking to create and express their own art.

I guess I am boring. I can still play the same favorite songs I first learned, and enjoy it, reveling in the ease of playing it and trying new things on the fly. But, like I said, after the 500th time, I would probably look to other songs as well.

But then again, my life was never a restless quest. When I get something l like, I stick with it. A creature of habit and routine.

I guess I am no artist.

[Boston Joe]

I fear that jazz at its leading edge, though, is losing its audience.

I feel like this happened 50 years ago.

Jazz is a niche music. It will never be popular again. "Leading edge" jazz is even less popular, because non musicians who like jazz like tunes they know, and it may be becoming less popular because older jazz musicians often prefer jazz that "sounds like jazz".

Make your peace with it. It's not going to change. We are a small band of monks (not Monks) keeping this music alive. Our primary audience is each other. Waiting for some kind of renaissance is just setting oneself up for disappointment.

(I'm talking mainly about the U.S. here. I know jazz is more popular abroad, and maybe that's where the innovation needs to come from.)

Personally, I enjoy playing 70-80 year old show tunes. I like modern stuff too, but I think there's a tremendous challenge in trying to make something like Autumn Leaves sound fresh. There's challenge in connecting with an audience no matter what you're playing (and I suspect it's easier to connect with Autumn Leaves than it is with Meeting of the Spirits). I enjoy playing a lot of Wayne and Herbie stuff because it's sort of a middle ground. Modern, but accessible.

[AlsoRan]

I feel like this happened 50 years ago.

Jazz is a niche music. It will never be popular again. "Leading edge" jazz is even less popular, because non musicians who like jazz like tunes they know, and it may be becoming less popular because older jazz musicians often prefer jazz that "sounds like jazz".

Make your peace with it. It's not going to change. We are a small band of monks (not Monks) keeping this music alive. Our primary audience is each other. Waiting for some kind of renaissance is just setting oneself up for disappointment....

I was thinking something similar as I thumbed my nose at some Star Wars geeks that were on the news, camping outside a theater to catch the premiere of the latest installment. I also thought the same thing at a Karoke bar I regularly visited for a short time a couple of years ago. I would see the same people every time and they would hug and support each other without end.

We, and I mean Jazz musicians, both aspiring and accomplished, do seem to be in our little niche. One of so very many. And I guess our passion is not much different from the folks in the groups that I mentioned above.

Still, its good to have some sort of passion for something.

[Boston Joe]

I was thinking something similar as I thumbed my nose at some Star Wars geeks that were on the news, camping outside a theater to catch the premiere of the latest installment. I also thought the same thing at a Karoke bar I regularly visited for a short time a couple of years ago. I would see the same people every time and they would hug and support each other without end.

We, and I mean Jazz musicians, both aspiring and accomplished, do seem to be in our little niche. One of so very many. And I guess our passion is not much different from the folks in the groups that I mentioned above.

Still, its good to have some sort of passion for something.

Yeah, I mean I don't think it's a bad thing, except maybe commercially.

[rpjazzguitar]

I mentioned in another thread that I go out and hear a particular standards group every couple of months.

Last time, they did Bye Bye Blackbird, to give you an idea of the repertoire

But, these are pro players with a deep groove. It's a gig at a big hotel which has a large bar/lobby area.

They come in with a singer and a great sound system. The horn player is one of the best in the area. The rest are old pros. Everything they play makes you want to snap your fingers, tap your feet or dance.

When they play, the music doesn't smell musty, if you get my meaning.

[gggomez]

I agree in many ways. I think what exacerbates this is that people are not passionate about it and it comes through.

Listening to Miles live at Newport the other day with his Kind of Blue band, man the intensity is wild. Listen to Duke Ellington's Band play Take the A Train or even my least favourite song ever Satan's Doll and man the intensity. It is so real, its their's they own it.

Come to 2018, listen to guys like Eyal Lovett, Mike Moreno, Ari Hoenig, some one previously mentioned Dayna Stephens same they own their music. They knock it out of the park. They do the odd standard and make it there's.

I think all these people they have their thing and the standard is just a tool for them to express rather than bands trying or wanting to be a jazz band. I am giving my band the flick, man I am always hearing all these rules about what is and what is not jazz.

I saw a band last week of amazingly talented 16 year olds, totally smashing it. They and the crowd going off, drunk ditch digger workers fist pumping to Take the A Train can you believe it, then they would do Chick Corea, then Caravan then a Michael Jackson song sprinkled with there own numbers. Just last week I heard someone say trombone was daggy and this band had two. Place was jam packed hot sweaty corner pub. They made it all there own.

I like Wayne Shorters definition of jazz "I dare you". Something like that.

Jazz the word is boring and limiting. I hate it when people say to get a jazz guitar tone ... What? It is not a thing!

Go for it man, dig deep, be you enjoy. Sounds like you are on a path.

As Yoda said to me last week. Failure. The greatest teacher it is.

[rsclosson]

Sonny Rollins played some of the most "insipid" show tune songs ever. (Surry With the Fringe on Top is my favorite example) After hearing his treatment of the song, I was amazed. He turned it into a Jazz tour de force!!

[rpjazzguitar]

Sonny Rollins played some of the most "insipid" show tune songs ever. (Surry With the Fringe on Top is my favorite example) After hearing his treatment of the song, I was amazed. He turned it into a Jazz tour de force!!

Wes recorded a terrific version of Surrey.

[rsclosson]

In my younger days, I went on the road with a top 40 band. Actually it wasn't even top 40. The leader had been playing the same songlist for probably 20 years. Mostly Creedence. I cannot begin to describe how miserable I was. One of the reasons I gravitated to "jazz" was because even the worst, most overworked standard or showtune is far better than playing Me and You and a Dog Named Boo.

[Cunamara]

Oh, man, rsclosson, that just made my day!

Great comments and some stuff to think about from everyone. Thanks! I do need to take a breather from playing the standards repertoire for a while, I think. I don't mind listening to it necessarily (I've just been going through the box set of the 1956 Miles recordings with the quintet, most of which is standards), although it's like eating ice cream and I'm satiated quickly.

Something I've been working on is a solo guitar take on Terrapin Station, inspired by Holly Bowling's amazing piano arrangements of Dead and Phish tunes. I saw her at The Dakota in October and was just blown the F away.

I'd like to find an upright bassist to work on some duo stuff along these lines.

[Hep To The Jive]

away.