Audiophiles?

[gator811]

I was happy with my monitors , running audio files and CD's until about 5 years ago when a friend (who is an audio tragic) asked me if I had room to store a pair of speakers. They just happened to be a pair of 1959-60 Acoustic Research AR2a's which he had had restored but was between houses and had no space for them.
I had an old Rotel amp so I hooked them up and plugged in my iPod - and my listening life changed forever.

I have a studio of sorts - a good listening space, so I ran them as reference monitors as well - but they werent much good because they made just about every recording sound great!

There's something about these speakers - its the lack of hype in the High and low frequencies but still with this beautiful bass - and the revelation of beautiful mids.

He picked them up eventually and I gave up on trying to find another pair in this part of the world - saw a few for sale in the U.S and Europe but the asking price + shipping just got sillier and sillier.

But I actually found some locally about 18 months ago and had them restored. My friend recommended getting one of the 30+ watt Sansui AU series amps to run them - and after joining the Stereo Network here in Oz I tracked down a nice restored mid 70's model - AU5900.

I just love it - but its the speakers that are special. They are a three-way with a 10 inch woofer , tweeter , and two inward facing mid range drivers - these are really the key to the sound of these things. Added to that, the drivers have cloth surrounds, not foam - so no rotting or deterioration - the surrounds are original.

Vinyl sounds amazing - CD's sound great depending on the production, as do audio files. Now Im a vintage audiophile - but I dont have any desire for more gear - except maybe a nice receiver - Pioneer maybe. I dont like the sound of alot of modern gear - even really pricey stuff.

[cosmic gumbo]

My audio system is so awesome and wonderful, I had hire a linguist to pronounce the names of the component makers correctly. After, I had to acoustically design a new house to accomodate it. The insurance on my audio system is actually more expensive than the insurance on my German touring sedan.

Everyone who listens to it proclaims it's the best they ever heard. Last night I had a listening party for the new premium vinyl colllector's edition of "Bat Out Of Hell", and people were weeping before the end of side 2.

[gunksman]

I'd have been crying as soon as I saw the album cover

[destinytot]

I'd have been crying as soon as I saw the album cover

What else can you do when you come across one of these?

... new premium vinyl collector's edition of "Bat Out Of Hell"...

Superb.

[gator811]

Joke if you will - but over at the HIFI forum there's a discussion going on about a $2000 set of RCA interconnects......

[destinytot]

Joke if you will - but over at the HIFI forum there's a discussion going on about a $2000 set of RCA interconnects......

I laugh at standards that seem impossibly high, but I marvel at pursuit of perfection.

[Philco]

Do audiophiles know that a great chunk of recorded music from the 70's on.....to this very day, has been and is still being mixed on a sub $2000 pair of Japanese bookshelf speakers called NS10's?

Ok some mixing engineers are using a sub with them these days. Chris Lord Alge still uses them.

So if those speakers are ok for the mixing engineers and for the artists who are often present at the mix, then why does an audiophile find it necessary to listen to the finished product on something "better".

I mean.......when the masters left the mastering facility they were exactly how the artist wanted them to sound. How does an audiophile "know" that they can make it sound "better?'

Were the mixing engineers using "Monster Cable?"

I understand the need for a big system if you have to fill a large area but.....
Anyway, I still have a pair of the old bastards.......

[gunksman]

I know about, and have heard those yamahas, but I thought that engineers master for the best sound from a number of monitors. To that end, as teenage King Crimson wannabes, we used take our Porta Studio masterpieces out to the car for listen. We had a lot of fun, but that's about it.

Aren't 'audiophile' recordings made with the expectation of being played on extra-sensitive equipment? Are they mastered with less compression, different EQ, etc ?

[Philco]

I'm really no expert and have lost touch with methods used for the new dance styles, EDM etc.
But those Yamahas are still in use all over the world. Not for some of the modern styles though.
Almost all the rock that you grew up listening to was more than likely mixed on those Yamaha cardboard speakers.

The monitor market has changed a lot over the years and there are some new players in that area.

Engineers just got used to those NS10s and compensated for their idiosyncracies. They can mask bass frequencies and they have a nasty mid range but for whatever reason, if you could make a mix sound good and even or flat (frequency) on those speakers then you could be fairly sure that the mix would sound "even" (no boomy bass or nasty highs) on just about anything.

There is usually more than one set of monitors in a studio and the engineer will reference on different systems of his choice. An Aurotone small mono speaker, the big built in monitors for the A and R guy and other record company execs.......mainly to impress them with volume just after they snorted a line. Those big monitors were often called "the idiot speakers"

As soon as they had left the room the NS10's would be back on.

The bookshelf monitors are just reference monitors and are there to provide an unflattering sound. No big Bass and no nasty surprises in any other frequencies.
The idea is that the mix should sound decent on most systems. Including car radios......there were many trips out to the car to listen to the mixes.
I don't know much about "audiophile" records.
I just think it's funny that people spend more money on their home systems than was spent on the speakers that the music was actually mixed on.

Of course, those mixes took place in very expensive control rooms using very expensive mixing consoles and then they were delivered to mastering suites with some more very expensive rooms and equipment.
It was in those mastering houses that you would find some very expensive monitors but even so, those monitors were used to find any overpowering frequencies and balance everything up, one last time.

Anyway, it's a deep and technical subject and I feel myself slowly slipping into the crevasse!

[stevus]

Gunksman, I am a burnt-out audiophool. The amount I spent could have bought me some nice vintage guitars which unlike high-end hifi will still have value today. Audiophoolery is akin to buying cars or motorbikes; they ain't worth shit in the long run.

That said, keep your Marantz. Deoxit the RCA connectors and speaker binding posts. 12-ga Audio Technica wire works fine. Solder the ends and terminate with banana plugs. Audiophools love Eichmann Plugs now called ETI Research...There I go again. You can't escape the orbit.

Turntable-tonearm: Regaplanar 3, Systemdek or Project. I don't like VPI.

Cartridge: Grado. Load it properly at the phono stage. 47Kohms? Grado Labs Prestige Cartridges

The important thing is to know how to set up the geometry well. It is a mechanical tracker of fine grooves, after all. VTA, Overhang, Azimuth, Tracking Force, etc. Check them out on the net.

Site your record on an mdf shelf or tempered glass sitting on three or four pointy cones. The frugal audiophool makes his own. Got a butcher's block? Level it and rest in on the butcher's block. Place the whole thing on some console or sideboard.

Oh yeah, lest I forget: IKEA Läck square coffee table. Gusset up the corners under the top to make it stiff and rigid. Rest your turntable directly on it. 40-year old audiophool trick for lightly sprung UK style turntables. Not for a VPI. Red Läck sounds better than Black....Just kidding!!!

Speakers: I like anything Bowers & Wilkins. You require a pair of solid stands for them, 18" to 20" high but of the same height. MDF ones work very well as long as they are rigid and stiff. No phallic jokes, please. Spike the bottom plate with four wood screws. These contact the floor or carpet. Blutak the speaker to the top plate. Do it for the other side.

Where you site your speakers is very important. On their stands, pull them away from the rear wall and rear corners, about 3 feet to six feet. Pull them away from the side walls, about 3 feet or more, if you can manage it. The speakers should be separated from each other, centre to centre, by between 6 feet and 8 feet.

Imagine an equilateral triangle. The speakers are sited at the corners of this triangle. You are seated at the apex.

You may start with the baffles of the speakers firing forwards. And then experiment by angling the speakers, little by little, to fire into your ears. This is called toe-in. You stop when you are happy with the sound.

One trick is to reverse the polarity of one speaker. When you hear one speaker cancelling out the other completely at your listening seat, you know pretty well you have got them set up well. You feel as if you are listening in a vacuum when that happens.

Just my audiophool take. Buy a decent carbon-fibre brush and a Zerostat. I love analogue vinyl, not digitally remastered ones. You can hear the digital remasters. The early Telarcs were terrible. Some of the Blue Note and Impulse digital remasters that came out in the "dying" days of vinyl were execrable.

Vinyl reproduces well the attack of the note and the decay of the tail. Vinyl set up right reproduces pace, rhythm and timing of a piece. Well, UK-style lightly sprung turntables do that. American turntables are terrible in this aspect except for the Bill Firebaugh Well-Tempered Turntable and Allen Perkins Immedia RPM-1. Oops, there I go again.

Keep it simple, mate. Leave the $30 000 speaker cables to the true audiophools. You don't have to spend a lot to get good sound. You need to know how and where to spend it.

I guess the test is: does it sound real? Or does it sound like a flat imitation of the real thing? There's gold in them vinyl. Most fellas have not heard them yet.

Only saw this post now, and I fully, fully agree with everything you write about this foolishness. Why? Because I own a UK made Pink Triangle GTI Export turntable. So you will understand, I guess...

Cheers

[robertm2000]

That's easy - it sounds better!

[neatomic]

been running yamaha ns10's for 30 years!!! on pretty much full time!!!

replaced one tweeter... 25 years ago!! indestructible otherwise...with care!! and luck!! fuse 'em... hah

once you know what they do, you can tweak your eq..or add a sub..or just leave them alone as they always sound pretty good

they were studio archetype for small box speaker and how your recording is gonna sound...plus or minus!!! haha

cheers

[Jabberwocky]

Only saw this post now, and I fully, fully agree with everything you write about this foolishness. Why? Because I own a UK made Pink Triangle GTI Export turntable. So you will understand, I guess...

Cheers

Of course I do. I have dealt with Arthur Khoubesserian, Neil Jackson (RIP) and the fine bunch of buggers at PT. Fine turntables.

[Jabberwocky]

The decline in the audio quality of recordings started with the pervasive use of the Yamaha NS10s in the 70s. The most prevalent form of home playback was the cassette tape and all in one covenient boomboxes. Sound engineers mixed for the lowest common denominator. Screw audio quality. Hifi was no longer hifi in the 70s. It is no different today. What is the most common audio playback device today? Earbuds hooked up to an ipod playing back compressed MP3 streams? Computer desktop speakers? You cover seats with asses; you mix down for those devices. It is the smart business thing to do. McDonald's, man.

Contrast them with recordings from the Golden Age of the original RCA Living Voice, Rudy Van Gelder's simply miked direct to tape Blue Notes, Impulse, Verve, etc..

The ethos was different back then. Studios actually cared about sound quality and music. It became business and lowest common denominator rules with the rise of vapid pop music.

It is fun to poke a stick at audiophiles and those businesses catering for conspicuous consumption don't help to give us any respect. When speaker cables started to cost $30 000 a ten-foot pair I know that someone is taking the piss on these rich poor audiophools. A ridiculous price tag is a ridiculous price tag but that should not put on a pox on all audiophiles. Some phools just love to spend money in order to have the "best". There is a market for folk like that. A $1.5m Hublot! Doesn't mean that those who love the art of horology are all deluded... They should not be allowed to cast a dismissive pall on the whole pursuit of good sound playback and eschew horribly mixed recordings done on the Yamaha NS10s. Studio engineers mix and master with different goals in mind. The goals are not always sound quality as audiophiles understand it but what is acceptable on the common playback device extant. Who cares about overall dynamic range, microdynamic contrasts, pace, timing, rhythm, timbral accuracy, imaging, sound staging, ambient cues, separation of instruments, attack, decay, the flesh of vocals cords that produce the singing voice except for the crazy audiophool.

Price tags have nothing to do with the pursuit. They are the exploitation of the pursuit but not to be confused for the pursuit itself.

By the way, for real studio monitors, I would rather trust the ATC 25s or Harbeth Monitor 30s.

In hifi, just as in cars or motorbikes, we are all experts...limited by our sphere of exposure. I just paid $50 for a pair of sprue cutters from Japan. If you are not into plastic modelling you will think I am crazy. Other woodworkers laugh at the guy with the £5000 Holtey handplane, too.

Sorry for the long ramble. Hard to write coherently on a handheld 8.4" tablet. But the right tools find the right fools.

* Yeah, I have heard $500 000 audiophool systems that sound terrible. But don't tell that to the owner who subscribes to the Robb report. $500 000 is the low-end of the high-end these days. We don't have to join the cabal. Much better value to be had if you know where to look.

[cosmic gumbo]

We used to get some voodoo juice from Auntie Blood out in the Bayou to sprinkle on our audio gear to make it audiophile. She also had audio cable made from rattlesnake that sounded awesome.

[gunksman]

Since this thread has come back to life, I've decided to pick up a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon as my TT as soon as I sell my Aria FA-71. There is definitely a point of diminishing returns on audio components, but the resurgence in affordable high end means killer sound is within reach of most of us:

[stevus]

We used to get some voodoo juice from Auntie Blood out in the Bayou to sprinkle on our audio gear to make it audiophile. She also had audio cable made from rattlesnake that sounded awesome.

Really interesting contribution to this thread... What is the point you wanted to make?

[fep]

How Well Can You Hear Audio Quality? : The Record : NPR

[neatomic]

Really interesting contribution to this thread... What is the point you wanted to make?

if you gotta ask. you'll never know..gris gris gumbo yaya



cheers

[sgosnell]

I didn't expect to, but I got the songs on the NPR quiz right. Not a fan of the music, but I could hear the difference between compressed and uncompressed through headphones. FWIW.

[stevus]

I thought so too. I am streaming a lot of music these days. I compared Spotify 320kbps to the pricier Quobuz 16-Bit / 44.1 kHz FLAC and decided for the latter. With good ears and the right equipment the differences are obvious. Vinyl sounds even better, but requires to get out of the chair every twenty minutes - classical music will give you a few more minutes. A seemingly disadvantage, but actually a healthy thing to do. Whether it is worth it, is for every individual to decide. So I don't think there is much voodoo involved, though it has been said that my Yamamura loudspeaker cables have been treated with shark skin oil. Whether that is true or not I don't care. They sound great and I am happy with them. In the end this is what this is all about, I think.

[sgosnell]

What is sharkskin oil supposed to do?

[stevus]

Good question...

[drbhrb]

I listen to music on a *gasp* sonos. I used to be more into audio quality but frankly I listen to a lot more music these days with the convenience of streaming/sonos and it sounds 90% as good.

[stevus]

Since two years I am using the Sonos Connect, which I had upgraded with better components, and then connected to my audio system. With a good separate DAC you will get near 100 percent. Never listened to my CD's again.