The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Do you use a metronome in your practice?

    I found a few resources that have me questioning the frequency of metronome use.

    While I'm still a fan of using the metronome (especially when reading).

    He specifically contests the use of metronome on 2 and 4 (I never used this system extensively but I first heard it from an Emily Remler video).

    I stumbled upon this after watching this Hal Galper clip about jazz rhythm (in which he professes jazz is not quarter notes: 1 2 3 4 is only counting and we should stop):



    Then again, no one really deserves to get should-ed on.
    Last edited by gmek; 03-11-2016 at 05:14 PM.

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  3. #77

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    Here's Mike Longo's reply to someone asking about foot tapping on 2 and 4.


    I don’t recommend foot tapping on two and four. For one thing you have to understand where the accent on two and four came from which is the cymbal beat. The old guy’s cymbal beat was Ka Chow chick Ka Chow chick, etc. As you can see, there is something on one and three as well. It just causes the weight to come down on two and four. Just tapping on two and four leaves out half of the beat. Not natural. The Be Bop cymbal beat starts on the fourth beat and sounds like Chip A Ching Chip A Ching, etc. Also Something on one and three with an emphasis on the “A”.
    Last edited by gmek; 03-11-2016 at 05:30 PM.

  4. #78

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    Tommy Emmanuel practices with one and recommends their use.

    Good enough for me.

  5. #79

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    Set your metronome to tempo 7, tap your foot on beats 1,2,3,4 and let the click be the second triplet of beat four every second measure. Of course this is macho bullshit, but this can be trained by starting with tempo 30 and putting it to half twice. If this doesn't help with time feel I don't know what else will

    Of course you should be able to swing and groove without one. But using one ironically helps with that in my view.

  6. #80

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    I still use a metronome in my practice - it has its uses.

    But yeah, I am a big fan of Mike Longo and Hal Galper's approach to teaching.

    I learn far more about time about playing with other musicians than I could ever learn from a ticking box. Listening to records is a distant second.

    The important thing is being able to truly understand the rhythms you are exposed to in jazz... That's a whole thread in itself, it's very deep.

    Drummers are the best people to talk to... The best ones understand the difference between what a metronome can offer and human time.....

  7. #81

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    Yes, it definitely has it's uses... I'm just starting to realize it has it's abuses as well.

    If I had access to musicians for my daily practice sessions I don't think I'd ever use a metronome.

    There's nothing better than a great drummer... they will make a bad band good and a good band great.

    Speaking of great drummers I recently got to check out the Brian Blade Fellowship band live and in person. What wonderful musicians! They somehow made an hour and a half seem like a mere 20 minutes.

  8. #82

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    On guitar, the main reason I use a metronome is for flow - not really for time.

  9. #83

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    If they ever make a movie about Hal Galper, I think it should star John Goodman.

  10. #84
    dortmundjazzguitar Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I still use a metronome in my practice - it has its uses.

    But yeah, I am a big fan of Mike Longo and Hal Galper's approach to teaching.

    I learn far more about time about playing with other musicians than I could ever learn from a ticking box. Listening to records is a distant second.

    The important thing is being able to truly understand the rhythms you are exposed to in jazz... That's a whole thread in itself, it's very deep.

    Drummers are the best people to talk to... The best ones understand the difference between what a metronome can offer and human time.....
    i'm a huge fan of both as well, but that article is rubbish. it's full of strawmen. nobody claims that metronomes "produce good time". he quotes someone who quotes the duke not liking metronomic time-keeping. well, i guess nobody does? and then he gets sidetracked and talks about the "new thing" and the demise of jazz clubs, which is appearently also the metronome's fault...

    i never got the whole discussion. what could possibly be wrong with a tool that can produce a totally steady rim-click? dutch bass legend victor kaihatu during lessons would play basslines for the student and turn to the metronome shouting "yeah!". cause he made it swing.

  11. #85
    dortmundjazzguitar Guest
    btw. i think metronomes are at least better than play-alongs because they don't pretend to actually play with you. god bless hal galper, but some of those aebersolds, oh dear...

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
    i'm a huge fan of both as well, but that article is rubbish. it's full of strawmen. nobody claims that metronomes "produce good time". he quotes someone who quotes the duke not liking metronomic time-keeping. well, i guess nobody does? and then he gets sidetracked and talks about the "new thing" and the demise of jazz clubs, which is appearently also the metronome's fault...

    i never got the whole discussion. what could possibly be wrong with a tool that can produce a totally steady rim-click? dutch bass legend victor kaihatu during lessons would play basslines for the student and turn to the metronome shouting "yeah!". cause he made it swing.
    Yeah it is a strawman, and I think I agree with what you say....

    I don't think a metronome kills your time feel (which seems to be what Longo is suggesting) because there's loads of great players who have used one. But it is also interesting that there are many (ranging from Jeff Berlin to Barry Harris) who haven't.

    So metronome use is not necessary for the development of good time. But can it be a useful practice tool? I think so.

    I do think a some musicians have a bit of a metronomic time feel as opposed to really swinging? Just evenly executed 8th note lines that you certainly wouldn't say are out of time, but lack the grease of real jazz phrases.... The reason seems plain to me - teachers often advise students to 'use a metronome' in the hope that it might sort out their time. Of course it doesn't.

    This is what happened to me. But at least it got me interested in rhythm and helped me develop a more sophisticated understanding...

    For some styles of music, an overly metronomic time feel is really inappropriate - some of the Middle Eastern stuff, for example, and I would argue early jazz and swing, too.

    On the other hand if you can make a metronome click on 2 and 4 swing, you are getting somewhere, but I don't think that practicing with a metronome click alone will get you there... Carol Kaye learned to do this when she realised she was tending to speed up in sessions, and no one would accuse her of having dry or mechanical time/feel. But I daresay her feel was already highly developed even if her sense of tempo might have been a bit off.

    Also, playing with a click on 2 and 4 only can make you a bit reliant on the click for your sense of tempo if over-used, which is a side issue.

    Metronomes are certainly great for technical work, though. I find them a bit better for this ATM than playing with the recording, because it's easier to fluff things a bit when you can hear the part being played behind you.

    Anyway, that said, I got a lot out of what Longo teaches. I don't see his teaching as being fundamentally at odds with the intelligent use of the metronome.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-12-2016 at 06:20 AM.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
    btw. i think metronomes are at least better than play-alongs because they don't pretend to actually play with you. god bless hal galper, but some of those aebersolds, oh dear...
    Better than iRealB or BIAB in turn! But yes Aebersolds can be a bit awful. And I get very annoyed with the tempos, which seem to be that awful 'jazz camp dirge unswing' tempo for a lot of the standards....

    BTW Have you ever tried recording a melody and solo and then accompanying your recording?

    Lage Lund mentioned this exercise at a workshop a year or two ago. I think it's a fantastic exercise on many levels...

  14. #88
    dortmundjazzguitar Guest
    yeah, i did that once or twice many moons ago. but one should always strive to play with better players

    regarding the metronome, it's just a tool. it's not for practicing feel but to have an objective pulse you can hold various rhythms or subdivisions against. i enjoy using it to play 4 to the bar and controlling whether i'm in front, on, or behind the given beat. i also like it to study odd meters, where i can mark the 1.

    on reflection i actually think there are indeed wrong uses of the metronome which can harm your time feel. like pretending the click is on the last eight note of a triplet and trying to develop a swing feel from there. that would be like learning the computer-generated solos of BIAB. ie not helpful.

  15. #89

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    I realize that there are many for and against arguments for using a metronome as a practice aid. I have just begun using one ( Pro Metronome on an iPhone) set on 2 and 4 whilst practicing 4/4 comping and am finding it invaluable as I know I have a some terrible timing issues ( rushing , dragging, drifting and probably more I am unaware of ). Other than setting a tempo and clicks on 2+4 are there other basic settings that you find useful or asked another way - how do You use a metronome?

    Will

  16. #90

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    I only started using the metronome religiously about 7 years ago. I'm guessing. I have it in my practice log somewhere. I don't do anything fancy like 2+4. Sometimes I subdivide when I go faster than the 250 BPM. But I practice tunes going from about 50 to 320 BPM, almost every day. Also picking and left-hand exercises. I found my hands were stuck in their comfortable zone and only forcing myself to change up with metronome going up and down, half notes, quarters triplets and 16th would unstick it.

  17. #91

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    For some, the Drumgenius app is the new metronome.

  18. #92

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    Why? Convince me. I don’t know why we need all these fangled diversions to make it seem like we’re really hip. Practicing is very simple and basic. I have that app and about four other metronome apps. Moments of weakness. I did a couple of gigs with the pianist Benny Green and he had some complicated metronome. I thought I needed something like it. But I never used them. I only need it for time. But I know everyone has different needs. I just don’t understand.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by henryrobinett; 10-25-2017 at 08:12 AM.

  19. #93

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    I am strictly against metronome in classical training.
    But in jazz - where we have constant rythm groove as it is - it turned out to be supportive.

    Let's just not forget that the metronome is as relative as anything else. To me music has it's own time feel - more complex and flexible than metronomic... and in a way much more precise.
    So probably listnening and understanding what's going on in music could be better way to improve timing than just following metronome.

    So I would use metronome in a very limited way - it's like checking your ability to follow some outside rythm pulse. But we should not let it ruin the music.

    2 - 4 is very common setup for jazz playing. But I would say 1-3 is a good thing to do too... beginning just players are so much focused on 2- 4 to get more swing that often every phrase they play goes to 2 or 4... and it can bring in even more rush... They fly over 1 to 2 (as well as in classical training students often rush into 1 swallowing the 4th)/

    We should not forget that though 2-4 are important for jazz.. 1-3 still make it a frame... without good 1-3 there's no 2-4 to syncopate.

    Another nice excercise is to put it in just 1... to check how you feel space... but with this I would correspond it with music... if you play real song (an not just comping) you should not hit precisely every 1... but it's important that you come back to it once in a while in some cadential turnarounds etc.



    As per Drum Genius it's a great app... but I do not consider it to be a metronome. It is more like imitating some drum style to accomodated with while you can't rehearse with a real band.
    But it can be misleading too... it gives a feel sometime that you play better than you really can.

  20. #94

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    Thanks for the direction it is much appreciated. I am currently using the metronome to correct issues I know exist with my practice and playing. For instance when learning a new song or voicing fingering I have a bad habit of stopping and correcting an error and thus interrupting and/or losing the overall time and flow . Having the metronome going makes it easier for me to keep the overall time and flow going and adjust/correct the error the next time through. I also have a bad habit of speeding up the parts of scales or scale patterns that I find easy to finger and am very familiar with and slow down those I don't find as easy or familiar so the metronome helps with keeping things even and better articulated . All very beginner stuff but I am finding it useful.

    I will have a look at Drumgenius - thanks

    Will

  21. #95

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    I know people who swear by the metronome and practice with it.

    Others who speak against.

    And a couple who recommend it to others but don't actually use it themselves.

    I know one regular metronome user who has terrible time. For him, I wonder if the metronome allows him to correct his time every beat and convince himself that he has good time, when, in fact, hasn't internalized it.

    I know one kb player who records with a metronome and plays it back much slower to see how close he is to perfect. He has great time.

    And, can there really be one approach that is best for everyone?

    For myself, improving my time has not resulted from metronome practice, although I did it some. Rather, it's come more from picking apart the barriers to good time.

    For example, I made progress when a fellow player pointed out that I was playing lines out of time because I was trying to do something I couldn't quite do. I came to understand that simple things can sound good with good time and nothing sounds good with bad time.

    After that, I spent more time thinking about how to make things easier to play.

    Another barrier was playing with musicians who weren't locking in together-- and I wasn't strong enough to lead. You can't be sure your time is bad until you're playing with players whose time is really good. With some players, you can end up feeling like you can't play at all -- and it may not be your fault. Or, you may be doing it to them <g>.

    All that said, I still practice with backing tracks and every now and then I check myself with Time Guru, a phone app that takes out random beats according to the percentage you set. Then you see if you have the time in yourself..

  22. #96
    The metronome discussion isn't as simple as a "yes or no" IMO. I think many arguments, both for and against, are related to the same "bad time" type issues. Just different symptoms.

    Get a TEACHER if you have time issues, especially if you've never had a teacher. You'll never catch up with those who did it for years in school. It's not helpful to continue to practice harder - but in the wrong ways - for years on end.

  23. #97

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    Yes it's not a simple Yes or No as Matt said. The metronome is just a tool right, that tool isn't going to make you have good time...

    What is good time? Personally... good time is being aware of the pulse and the context that the pulse is being applied. I think of the pulse as Time markers, Targeted Time Markers. And the context is generally what and where your playing.

    So Good Time can be different in different situations.

    Sure you can have standard mechanical straight time... every accent is perfect subdivision etc... and the metronome is good for working on that skill. And as you said... you have basic time issues. So use of the metronome is probably a very good tool to help fix your problem.

    But that is only part of what having good time etc... once your able to have a steady and reliable internal Pulse. By internal, I mean your not creating that pulse by playing etc... You don't need to count, you feel the pulse and your playing fits or is applied to and within that pulse.

    Personally I believe that internal Pulse is developed from performing accent patterns, that repeat. Grooves that repeat and lock. The result is rather than just being in the moment, your feeling time in longer sections of time. Four bars, eight bar, twelve bar, sixteen bar etc...
    phrases. Like your working on counting or feeling 2 and 4 or 1 and 3... of a 4 beat phrase...eventually that time will expand to longer physical sections of time. Longer Phrase. 4 bars... 16 bars etc...

    So what happens is your able to separate your conscious from counting. Your able to be aware of what your playing or what the band is playing while also being locked in a Pulse. Your aware of Longer sections of Time... a 4 bar beat as compared to a 1 beat. Instead of feeling 1 and 3 or 2 and 4... you begin to feel sections of a tune.... Your counting or feeling A A B A. And eventually Forms like A A B A which are just organized sections of Time, become just One longer Beat.

    This basic developmental time line also applies to other technical aspect of performing music. Sight reading, melodic and harmonic understanding of what ever your playing...without memorizing.

    I guess the point is ... there is more than just one level of having good time and how it applies to performing. And it's good to be aware of where and what is required to to reach those levels.

    Drum apps are great tool for becoming aware of the names of specific rhythms...

  24. #98

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    I did a vid, if anyone's interested.


  25. #99

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    I've had some experiences with recording when it was obvious there was no way around practicing with metronome. When everyone has their own strict parts and playing all together. Putting on the headphones and hearing everything this way is not the same as the normal rehearsal. Suddenly the magic of human time and communication, you know.. it's gone. Well, not completely but it's so different and your own timing better be solid. The usual wiggle room that is always present on live and rehearsals, is way smaller. Depends on the style for sure but when there is 1 hour of studio time for 1 tune, must be safe and at least test that playing with metronome wont pull the carpet from under your feet.

  26. #100

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    I think developing internal pulse is crucial.

    That said, if your time sucks, stop running before crawling and buy a damn metronome.