Women can't play jazz guitar!!

[franco6719]

Well, actually that's an argument that some "clever" fellow over on the "Youboob" was trying to make against me one time. He suggested that people give "special attention" to people like Mimi Fox, and that Emily Remler was really not much better than your average subway player, except that she was female and therefore she had special traits, if you see what I mean.

So, what about this phenomenon of so few women jazz guitarists?

(Yes, I'm being deliberately provocative and, please, I do NOT believe in this crap myself).

[Banksia]

Historically I think it's easy to understand. Probably, outside some folk styles not many women played guitar. I guess piano or violin were seen as "suitable" for women. Even into the 1940s and 50s, jazz musicians had a dreadful reputation - jazz player was synonymous with "junkie" to many people. Also any white women constantly hanging around bars with black men would have been seriously frowned on - in some states, they still would be.

There is also the historical "division of labour" issue, where, even a brilliant female guitarist would have been expected to stop touring once she had kids. I think overall, parents would have discouraged even boys from becoming jazz players because it suggested a life of poverty, drugs and racial intermixing.

Having said all that, jazz isn't alone. Aside from Jennifer Batten I can't think of too many virtuoso rock players who were women. You find a few rock bassists and rhythm guitarists but no-one that is a major influence or style leader. Also in country music, before Patsy Cline, women never toured the circuit as the headline act. They were ususally just side-acts to the main event.

In my family 3 girls and 1 boy learnt guitar but I'm the only one who persisted beyond 3 years. The only reason my sisters are not guitarists is because they stopped practising.

[wordsmith]

.....of why you seem so angry, for want of a better word, right now, Franco. You said said someone laid this on you 'one time'........which makes it sound not too recently. They say time heals.
It's tempting to assume from the post that you are female - but you could be a guy with sympathies in this direction,too. I've been a member here since January, but still don't really know the gender of any member (anyone can stick a photo up on the net).
My reason for this post is perhaps to prompt you to start it again, maybe making your feelings (obviously strong) a bit more..........dunno.....detailed?
Your post here threw me a little. To say that Emily Remler is...how you wrote.... just ridiculous, and the words of such a.....bettter not use those words here..... should not be taken seriously by anyone.

They seem to have upset you, though - mightily.

I'd like to chip in.....but I don't feel I have enough to go on. I am definitely not a chauvinist. To me, anyone who comes out with such ridiculous remarks would never, ever, be invited to the party I would throw were I ever to win the lottery!

PS I am male.

[Luan]

Some weird posts in this thread...

[wordsmith]

....I was just trying to tactfully delve a little deeper without causing any offense (hopefully).

If that is 'weird', I am obviously on the wrong planet. But never mind, I make the most of it........

[mr. beaumont]

if you want my opinion, here it is.

there's been about 7 intelligent comments made in the history of YouTube. don't let others ignorance ruin your day, you'll go through life pissed off a lot.

[JohnW400]

NEVER read the comments. Not on you tube and not on any newstory you read on line.

The saddest commentary about humanity I can find is when you read some news story about an "ileagal" alien that get's killed and all the comments are about how it serves him right for being here illegaly and how it woudn't have happened to him if he stayd in his count blah blah blah. It's enough to make you lose faith in humanity and wonder.

Sorry for the rant but Mr B's comment about youtube is on the mark and set me off.

[Bertrand tB]

"Women can't play jazz guitar"
How wrong can you be!!

[franco6719]

No, I am not angry about it at all now, though it did pee me off mightily at the time. It wasn't YOU, was it? Just kidding. Seriously, it's just something that I wanted to post about for while now in the hopes that I would find that such thinking is not really very common in the world of jazz or other music.

You know, I have been out of the music scene for a very long time and it was partly watching Youtube videos of the classic jazz artists that helped push me back into it. This might clear up some of the background here: where I'm coming from. I was basically shocked by some of the BS that came out in almost ALL of the comments sections, some of it from serious musicians and so on. I think I was quite justified, all things considered. When I saw some of things written about certain female players, I was truly disgusted. Only later did I realized that Youtube comments are all crap, insults and provocation. I don't read them at all these days.

[franco6719]

"The saddest commentary about humanity I can find is when you read some news story about an "ileagal" alien that get's killed and all the comments are about how it serves him right for being here illegaly and how it woudn't have happened to him if he stayd in his count blah blah blah. It's enough to make you lose faith in humanity and wonder."

Exactly. But, at the same time, it's like watching a train wreck or something. You go back and say "Jesus, how low can this nonsense go?" So, you read a little more "conservative" commentary and feel like your a better person. Then you think again: "Maybe we all believe that shit in some way deep inside. That's horrible!!"

Never mind.

[franco6719]

"Also any white women constantly hanging around bars with black men would have been seriously frowned on - in some states, they still would be. "

I think that this, plus the general stereotype that "women are the singers" probably explains most of it.

[fast1]

or he hasn't seen anyone good at it yet...

[JohnW400]

Back to the point of the post, back in 1976 There were only 2 ,non-singer, female musicians in the jazz program. One was a jazz guitar major and the other was a bass player (stand-up).

I remember that the guitar player took a lot of grief form the "boy's club" (I was guilty too) and I rember that the bass player put me in my place one day. I had never heard of one particular standard and I made some kind of off the cuff remark about the composer. Well she proceeded to give me a detailed lesson on all the great standards that this one guy wrote. Not only did she know her stuff on the bass, she also knew tunes, their composers and and those composers body of works (Which was more than I knew) Of course to this day that particular tune is one of my favorites. Live and Learn

[bako]

Toshiko Akiyoshi,Geri Allen,Lynn Arriale,Badi Assad,Sheryl Bailey,Cindy Blackman, Carla Bley,Jane Ira Bloom,
Andrea Brachfeld,JoanneBrackeen,Terri Lyne Carrington,Regina Carter,Anat Cohen,Alice Coltrane,Sheila Cooper,Sylvie Courvoisier,
Marilyn Crispell,Connie Crothers,Sylvia Cuenca,KJ Denhert,Barbara Dennerlein,Akua Dixon,Dorothy Donegan,
Christiana Drapkin,Laura Dreyer,Eliane Elias,Mimi Fox,Janet Grice,Jenny Hill,Bobbi Humphrey,Susie Ibarra,
Paula Jeanine,Carolyn Leonhart,Erica Lindsay,Melba Liston,Jessica Lurie,Virginia Mayhew,Myra Melford,Allison Miller,
Zeena Parkins,Roberta Piket,Emily Remler,Matana Roberts,Janice Robinson,Michele Rosewoman,Renee Rosnes,
Patrice Rushen,Angelica Sanchez,Maria Schneider,Rhoda Scott,Sue Terry,Mary Lou Williams, Frances-Marie Uitti, Rachel Z,
Jessica Pavone, Eileen Folson, Nioka Workman, Mary Halvorsen,Valerie Naranjo,Cecilia Tenconi,Deborah Weisz,CynthiaHilts,
Tracy Wormworth,Esperanza Spalding, Bernice Brooks,Jenny Scheinman,Amanda Monaco, Leni Stern

These are some strong instrumentalists that I am familiar with and I don't know all that much.
What is the question?

[hubert54]

hi all you nice guys,

Maybe Franco wanted to provoke another kind of discussion.
Certainly he - my opinion - he didn't mean - women couldn't play "jazz"
that would be pure nonsense
There are women on the saxophone, trumpet, Cello or all what instruments
are present and challenging,
but btw.it's a legal question to ask, why so few in "jazz"
Like women contribute - certain women
a lot of what is meant subconscious feeling to music.
The guitar looks pretty female...
perhaps that's the reason why men change this option

Thanks to franco, although I don't understand too many words.

[franco6719]

Originally Posted by bako

Toshiko Akiyoshi,Geri Allen,Lynn Arriale,Badi Assad,Sheryl Bailey,Cindy Blackman, Carla Bley,Jane Ira Bloom,
Andrea Brachfeld,JoanneBrackeen,Terri Lyne Carrington,Regina Carter,Anat Cohen,Alice Coltrane,Sheila Cooper,Sylvie Courvoisier,
Marilyn Crispell,Connie Crothers,Sylvia Cuenca,KJ Denhert,Barbara Dennerlein,Akua Dixon,Dorothy Donegan,
Christiana Drapkin,Laura Dreyer,Eliane Elias,Mimi Fox,Janet Grice,Jenny Hill,Bobbi Humphrey,Susie Ibarra,
Paula Jeanine,Carolyn Leonhart,Erica Lindsay,Melba Liston,Jessica Lurie,Virginia Mayhew,Myra Melford,Allison Miller,
Zeena Parkins,Roberta Piket,Emily Remler,Matana Roberts,Janice Robinson,Michele Rosewoman,Renee Rosnes,
Patrice Rushen,Angelica Sanchez,Maria Schneider,Rhoda Scott,Sue Terry,Mary Lou Williams, Frances-Marie Uitti, Rachel Z,
Jessica Pavone, Eileen Folson, Nioka Workman, Mary Halvorsen,Valerie Naranjo,Cecilia Tenconi,Deborah Weisz,CynthiaHilts,
Tracy Wormworth,Esperanza Spalding, Bernice Brooks,Jenny Scheinman,Amanda Monaco, Leni Stern

These are some strong instrumentalists that I am familiar with and I don't know all that much.
What is the question?

The question was about female jazz GUITARISTS. Why so few? The fact is obvious. The answer seems to be a combination of historical prejudices, social circumstances, preferences and so on.

[franco6719]

"The guitar looks pretty female...
perhaps that's the reason why men change this option."

Believe it or not, this could be a legitimate reason.

[Joe Dalton]

Scientifically speaking, women just can't focuss the same way men can. You can hissy fit and say we are all the same but it's both wrong and doesn't do justice to the beauty of reality.
You need to do focussed and determined practice to really reach the top in jazz since it's a very skilled music especially for instrumentalists.
A woman can reach the same heights with the same practice I think, it will just be more rare.
I think Banksia hit it on the head with his example of his sisters.

[bako]

Originally Posted by Joe Dalton

Scientifically speaking, women just can't focuss the same way men can.

What science is this? My day to day musical life in NYC teaches me otherwise.

Originally Posted by franco6719

a combination of historical prejudices, social circumstances, preferences and so on.

This subtext does cause a few women to give up. Others dig in and focus even more intently to become a working jazz musician.

Perhaps NYC is an imperfect reflection of the rest of the world but then again many of the musicians here came from a wide variety of elsewhere. I can see no lack of talented jazz women instrumentalists and guitar is afterall just another instrument.

[hubert54]

of course,

I think of New York as a great town with a huge variety of music,
although a friend of mine told me it would be Berlin now.
It doesn't matter at all. Anyone here who knows "Franz Hackl"?
Another question: Why women "seem" to prefer something like a "Cello"?
There are both strings on it.(the cello and a guitar) What makes the difference?
Interesting thread.
Because someone here touches or wants to - strings which touch
the "way it was or should be"
never forget the vocal strings
( with females I prefer the alto )

[Joe Dalton]

Bako, Men and Women Really Do Think Differently | LiveScience males and females have different brains. Ever notice women can multitask better? Now you have an excuse.
There are many differences between men and women both physically and mentally. Not better worse as the article points out just different.

[hubert54]

certainly different,
but what's the matter about that?
You wouldn't be here without a woman.
no patriarchism intended.
I don't know '(or feel) why some women like ( passionated ) their Cello
I'm only trying to understand - Cello suites of Bach - and a way of "living"
Who drives the wheels?

btw. I knew a woman, playing the mandolin virtuoso,
on my ears there was only a bit of poison by noise.
And another, didn't play really well, far better in the sense of music,
if you don't mind.
who "thinks" - men or women - when playing?

[franco6719]

"Why women "seem" to prefer something like a "Cello"?
There are both strings on it.(the cello and a guitar) What makes the difference?
Interesting thread."

That is really a tough one. I don't know how any of this neuroscience about different brains (yes, there are differences) can explain why some stringed instrument would be very common and often mastered by women (like the cello, violin, piano,etc) but another one would be pretty rare: guitar.

I still think it has more do with culture and history. If women can focus enough to master hundreds of other instruments, why not the guitar? Maybe we are looking at it the wrong way. What is about the guitar that appeals to males? Probably the whole Jimi Hendrix superstar idol thing just caught the attentions of millions of young men who said "I want to be like that", while there was no corresponding role model for women in that sense.

Women see other role models: Billie Holiday, Carmen McCrae, Maria Callas and millions go into singing. Or they see cellists and classical pianists and they can certainly concentrate enough to become almost dominant in those areas.

[Joe Dalton]

Originally Posted by hubert54

who "thinks" - men or women - when playing?

I don't, a question was asked, this is a way of looking at it. We can deny differences or embrace them. I'm in favor of the second.

[Banksia]

To undertand this better, I would break this thread into several different questions:

- Why do more boys than girls take up guitar?

- Why do more men than women become professional musicians?

- Why do more men than women like jazz?

The first one is easy - most Rock/Metal guitar heroes are men.
The second answer possibly has more to do with the perceived viability of the occupation than with any innate ability.
The third one is possibly because we start to form our musical tastes in adolescence. Music for young girls is always produced and packaged in a way that has nothing to do with music, and relies on basic packaging and marketing. Equally you would find that bands popular with young teenage boys probably personify themes of rebellion and feed the need for identity - ironically offering tribe membership as an expression of individuality.

So, what's new? Absolutely nothing. Since Edison enabled music to become a mass market industry, nothing has changed. Do you think that Caruso's management failed to notice that his looks made him popular with women? Was there ever a time when men didn't fall in love with stage and opera singers?

Does the situation need to be corrected? Does jazz suffer from the lack of women practitioners? While there is probably merit in the scientific approach to gender brain differences I believe the absence of women in jazz is almost entirely due to social factors, not musical ability or instrument choice.

[Goofsus4]

Are there even any women currently active on this forum???

[hubert54]

that's the thing
Like or nonlike you
any women who answer to this pure nonsense??

[wordsmith]

Perhaps social attitudes do play a part. Many young guys start with guitar thinking it will attract the girls. And why not?
But a girl doing the same thing would be seen as.............lacking in virtue, or other such cliched rubbish?

These kinds of attitudes really piss me off, but I can't change the world.

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by wordsmith

Perhaps social attitudes do play a part. Many young guys start with guitar thinking it will attract the girls. And why not?
But a girl doing the same thing would be seen as.............lacking in virtue, or other such cliched rubbish?

These kinds of attitudes really piss me off, but I can't change the world.

yes, you can.

[Mash Hawkeye]

Watch Mary Ford. She could play the hell out the jazz guitar.