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  1. #1

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    'Mostly Other People Do the Killing‘s new album Blue is a note-for-note re-creation of Miles Davis’ classic 1959 recording, Kind of Blue.'

    Kind of, Kind of Blue: A Conversation with Mostly Other People Do the Killing | PopMatters

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  3. #2

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    Jazz put musicologists in charge so it deserves this.
    Jazz is a tribute band.
    When you try to be all things to all people you shouldn't complain when the results are laughable.

  4. #3

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    I thought that was a pretty interesting interview. Brought up many interesting points, including "what is jazz" and discussion of parallels to classical music


    If, like me, you've heard kind of blue a million times, it's really freaky hearing their take. Here's "all blues"



    Listen to Jon Irabagon (who's a monster player) do Cannonball and Trane's solos. Kind of like being on acid: its right, but not quite right....
    Last edited by pkirk; 10-23-2014 at 06:32 PM.

  5. #4

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    ^^^
    Funny comments. "Nice cloning"

    They say jazz is just like classical so, transcribe something and clone it. Why not?
    This will turn me into a Kenny G fan, at least he makes up stuff.

  6. #5

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    Actually I'm quite relieved Jon Irabagon didn't really nail Trane's sound on that clip. At least some things are sacrosanct.

    Check out Joe Henderson's tribute to Miles, So Near So Far (with John Scofield). To me that's what the spirit of jazz is about. Joe played Miles' tunes, but totally put his own stamp on them.

    Imagine if someone had asked (say) Johnny Griffin to do an exact copy of a Ben Webster record. He could probably do a damn good job, but I'm sure he would have told them where to go!

  7. #6

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    Classical musicians associate jazz with improvisation. I know this. They used to anyway. When people (musicologists are real kidders) started saying jazz and classical are the same classical musicians were scratching their heads. They were thinking, I can't improvise worth a damn and someone thinks they're the same?
    They said, OK, whatever.
    Finally, the jazz tribute bands have arrived.

    I'll never forget sitting around a table with Al Tinney between sets when I went to go see my play. My parents were huge fans and knew him well. They wanted me to hear him. Naturally the discussion got around to jazz+classical. Al started getting agitated. Finally he slammed the table and said THEY'RE THE SAME!
    The moral of the story? Sure, they're the same by why talk about it? It can't be explained.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Actually I'm quite relieved Jon Irabagon didn't really nail Trane's sound on that clip. At least some things are sacrosanct.

    Check out Joe Henderson's tribute to Miles, So Near So Far (with John Scofield). To me that's what the spirit of jazz is about. Joe played Miles' tunes, but totally put his own stamp on them.

    Imagine if someone had asked (say) Johnny Griffin to do an exact copy of a Ben Webster record. He could probably do a damn good job, but I'm sure he would have told them where to go!
    I probably agree that this is not in the spirit of jazz although those kind of judgements are above my pay grade... but if you read that interview it's clear that's not what they were going for. As an academic exercise I think the MOPDTK clip shows how incredible well trained the current crop of jazz musicians are, and I think that will be the takeaway in 20 years when we look back at what defines current jazz. I think of this recording as quite close to what classical musicians do: think of the Miles band as "the composer", and MOPDTK as the ensemble who plays the composition.

    What if all scores to a stravinsky symphony were lost, but one recording remained and someone transcribed it and an orchestra played it? would that be less valid than if the score was never lost? it's an interesting question.

    That said, Irabagon doesn't nail trane or cannonball's voices. If nothing else, it reinforces just how deep those guys were, that someone as great as Irabagon can't fool even my tin ears. And iraagon is an amazing player, I heard him on a recent tour with dave douglas and he is a burning amazing tenor player.

    And of course, Joe henderson blows these guys away. But He blows almost everybody away. He's up there with Trane in my esteem.

  9. #8

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    If people think classical musicians are just playing in tribute bands that's fine. Classical music doesn't start with recordings though, does it?
    I wouldn't hire this band.
    Kinda like you didn't get the job fellas.

  10. #9

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    Brilliant!
    As absolutely brilliant as a group of students of television media transcribing, memorizing and reenacting the famous newscast of the moon landing and broadcasting it in a 6PM news slot. Yup. And just about as profound. Somebody change that channel, please.
    David

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Brilliant!
    As absolutely brilliant as a group of students of television media transcribing, memorizing and reenacting the famous newscast of the moon landing and broadcasting it in a 6PM news slot. Yup. And just about as profound. Somebody change that channel, please.
    David
    Hey David, this is pretty much the kind of reply I suspect MOPDTK are trying to elicit. Ethan Iverson has a nice take on it

    Classical Music - Do The Math

    In particular, he says:

    "I'm blogging about it mainly because I have heard so many musicians and fans react in horror. I'm afraid to tell all these folks this, but it's true: You have already had a sincere and strong reaction to the conceptual art, so therefore you have already validated the work. "

    I'm no artist or intellectual, so I don't have any skin in the game. I wouldn't buy their recording for the same reason I wouldn't buy Marcel Duchamp's "fountain", I don't "get" conceptual art. But I know some sincere and informed people do, and I find the split reactions to it interesting.

  12. #11

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    I think they were trying to make a point that something as great as kind of blue should be studies. I may be wrong though. I will have to ask Jon the next time I see him. BTW Jon is probably one of the best musicians that I have had an opportunity to play with and if he's involved in this, then I think it's valid.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    Hey David, this is pretty much the kind of reply I suspect MOPDTK are trying to elicit. Ethan Iverson has a nice take on it

    Classical Music - Do The Math

    In particular, he says:

    "I'm blogging about it mainly because I have heard so many musicians and fans react in horror. I'm afraid to tell all these folks this, but it's true: You have already had a sincere and strong reaction to the conceptual art, so therefore you have already validated the work. "

    I'm no artist or intellectual, so I don't have any skin in the game. I wouldn't buy their recording for the same reason I wouldn't buy Marcel Duchamp's "fountain", I don't "get" conceptual art. But I know some sincere and informed people do, and I find the split reactions to it interesting.
    Tribute bands have been around for a long time. This is nothing new. All the mumbo-jumbo art talk doesn't change or complicate anything. Tribute bands copy recordings and it's a very simple business.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    'Mostly Other People Do the Killing‘s new album Blue is a note-for-note re-creation of Miles Davis’ classic 1959 recording, Kind of Blue.'

    Kind of, Kind of Blue: A Conversation with Mostly Other People Do the Killing | PopMatters
    From the article;

    "The problem with this is that, in a lot of ways, the canonization and institutionalization of classical music winds up killing classical music. Lots of smaller orchestras are on pretty shaky financial footing these days, and some of the big ones don’t sound very good. In fact, I have heard a lot of orchestras that are super highly paid, bourgeoisie-generated things, play shitty ass renditions of Mozart because they’ve played Mozart 40,000 times. They probably don’t even need to read the music anymore; they put that sucker on autopilot, and it’s not very good?"

    Classical music wasn't institutionalized, it was born in institutions. The churchs had the technology- notation, and they oversaw the development of everything such as instruments. Bach was very cutting edge and people wanted his input on new things like the piano. He even printed music himself.
    This sounds like excuses from Moppa Elliott because his friends who play in orchestras are too lazy to perform the music properly. Gigs can be a grind if you play a lot. Doesn't matter what kind of music it is.
    Is he suggesting de-institutionalizing classical music? It could happen but I doubt he wants his friends to lose their jobs.

    "Orchestras that have to play five to nine concerts a week, and all the people I know who are in those orchestras talk about, you punch in a time clock. You’re basically a factory worker."

    They didn't know what they were getting into when they got into classical music? That's hard to swallow. Are the hours too long? Take it up with the people in charge.

    Pros and Cons

    According to this they'll work 20 hours a week. I'd guess 25-30 would not be uncommon. That's a grind? I've done 48 hours a week in a club and I loved it. I was young though. It gets boring in hurry, about a month.
    I know replicating a record like Kind of Blue would take serious dedication but it's still just replicating a record. You're a tribute band and all the excuses in the world won't change that.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    What if all scores to a stravinsky symphony were lost, but one recording remained and someone transcribed it and an orchestra played it? would that be less valid than if the score was never lost? it's an interesting question.
    That would be perfectly valid, since the music was always intended to be played from a score, in its entirety.

    Gerry Mulligan did something like this for his Rebirth of the Cool CD. Some of the original 'Birth of the Cool' charts had long since disappeared, so as I recall, he got someone to transcribe them from the records. Although they played the same arrangements, everyone improvised their own new solos, they did not recreate the original solos. So that seems valid to me. And they did not try to sound much like the originals - they used Phil Woods instead of Lee Konitz. Which sounds a lot different!

  16. #15

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    There's no doubt this took a lot of work.

    I wonder what they could have created of their own if that energy had been directed towards developing their own voices, writing some new tunes, and refining/deepening how they interact with each other.
    Last edited by rictroll; 10-25-2014 at 12:19 AM. Reason: Repeated word

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Jazz put musicologists in charge so it deserves this.
    Jazz is a tribute band.
    When you try to be all things to all people you shouldn't complain when the results are laughable.
    You know what drop this. Really. Right now there is a great deal happening with Avant Garde, Jazz Pop, Punk Jazz, and Free Jazz. Never mind the crossover with post rock, chamber pop, and the experimental community. I am friends with Anthony Pirog and Janell Lepin, and Pixel is pretty damn awesome. A new generation is rising that is dropping the problems. Spending time around the new blood extensively, as a synthisist and avant garde composer, I can tell you whatever pretension in the jazz community is going away with the next generation, who has a heart that is much less pretentious and leading to a real rebirth. They are breathing new life into the genre. We still appreciate and study the greats, but we have roots in other places and are interested in progressing the genre. While I am primarily a synthesist and multi-instrumentalist, it is a far more welcoming community then it was years ago when I occasionally played electric piano at jazz jams. The pretension is down, and the deep traditionalism is mostly for the older generation and professors, as supposed to musicians. Frankly anybody who thinks it is just musicologists, you are well outside the critical scenes in NYC, New Orleans, and DC, or much of Europe for that matter. I get the alienation, but those of us who are avant garde and the younger jazz community have moved on.
    These people write their own music, they improvise, and perform standards, not so much. Again this is an advantage to those of us who are composers, or those who play with those who write exclusively. I will be honest, even when I was playing EP I never played a standard in my life even though I knew a few. I can just pick up on the flow of a song. I agree improvisation is jazz, but the musicologist/traditionalist perception is like ten years ago. While this board is more traditionalist, you may be removed from the living scene. Seriously hang out ten minutes with the hottest new names in jazz, and you will realize how unpretentious they are, and how much dedicated they are to moving things forward. If this insults you or the traditionalist on the board, so what. Jazz is still very much a living music, classical is not.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlady
    You know what drop this. Really. Right now there is a great deal happening with Avant Garde, Jazz Pop, Punk Jazz, and Free Jazz. Never mind the crossover with post rock, chamber pop, and the experimental community. I am friends with Anthony Pirog and Janell Lepin, and Pixel is pretty damn awesome. A new generation is rising that is dropping the problems. Spending time around the new blood extensively, as a synthisist and avant garde composer, I can tell you whatever pretension in the jazz community is going away with the next generation, who has a heart that is much less pretentious and leading to a real rebirth. They are breathing new life into the genre. We still appreciate and study the greats, but we have roots in other places and are interested in progressing the genre. While I am primarily a synthesist and multi-instrumentalist, it is a far more welcoming community then it was years ago when I occasionally played electric piano at jazz jams. The pretension is down, and the deep traditionalism is mostly for the older generation and professors, as supposed to musicians. Frankly anybody who thinks it is just musicologists, you are well outside the critical scenes in NYC, New Orleans, and DC, or much of Europe for that matter. I get the alienation, but those of us who are avant garde and the younger jazz community have moved on.
    These people write their own music, they improvise, and perform standards, not so much. Again this is an advantage to those of us who are composers, or those who play with those who write exclusively. I will be honest, even when I was playing EP I never played a standard in my life even though I knew a few. I can just pick up on the flow of a song. I agree improvisation is jazz, but the musicologist/traditionalist perception is like ten years ago. While this board is more traditionalist, you may be removed from the living scene. Seriously hang out ten minutes with the hottest new names in jazz, and you will realize how unpretentious they are, and how much dedicated they are to moving things forward. If this insults you or the traditionalist on the board, so what. Jazz is still very much a living music, classical is not.
    I wouldn't say I'm a traditionalist. I just see a movement against interpreting. Where I grew up in western NY people do a lot of originals, that's good but they also do tributes. Note for note copy of songs. I don't do that. I like to interpret. The first boppers were extraordinary interpreters. They also wrote but they didn't need to.
    I'll stick to my older jazz and new pop a lot of the time. I listen to loopers a lot. That's where interesting interpreters are now. They beatbox, change rhythms and come up with fresh ideas for old songs. Any song really.
    I'll admit, I'm an old fuddy-duddy when it comes to jazz.
    I wouldn't say this board is traditionalist but we do have a lot of 50-something members who like to talk.
    Now that we have it all figured out we're not inclined to do anything about it.
    Have to disagree about classical today. Today's young violinists are as good as any at any time. Classical is very much alive.
    I'm a pop musician not a jazz musician. Jazz is a hobby for me.
    Last edited by Stevebol; 10-25-2014 at 01:35 AM.

  19. #18

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    I'm starting a Mingus note for note tribute band, I've already punched 3 people.

    What do you say to a trombonist with 2 black eyes??

    Nothing, he's already been told twice....
    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 10-25-2014 at 01:36 AM.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlady
    You know what drop this. Really. Right now there is a great deal happening with Avant Garde, Jazz Pop, Punk Jazz, and Free Jazz. Never mind the crossover with post rock, chamber pop, and the experimental community. I am friends with Anthony Pirog and Janell Lepin, and Pixel is pretty damn awesome. A new generation is rising that is dropping the problems. Spending time around the new blood extensively, as a synthisist and avant garde composer, I can tell you whatever pretension in the jazz community is going away with the next generation, who has a heart that is much less pretentious and leading to a real rebirth. They are breathing new life into the genre. We still appreciate and study the greats, but we have roots in other places and are interested in progressing the genre. While I am primarily a synthesist and multi-instrumentalist, it is a far more welcoming community then it was years ago when I occasionally played electric piano at jazz jams. The pretension is down, and the deep traditionalism is mostly for the older generation and professors, as supposed to musicians. Frankly anybody who thinks it is just musicologists, you are well outside the critical scenes in NYC, New Orleans, and DC, or much of Europe for that matter. I get the alienation, but those of us who are avant garde and the younger jazz community have moved on.
    These people write their own music, they improvise, and perform standards, not so much. Again this is an advantage to those of us who are composers, or those who play with those who write exclusively. I will be honest, even when I was playing EP I never played a standard in my life even though I knew a few. I can just pick up on the flow of a song. I agree improvisation is jazz, but the musicologist/traditionalist perception is like ten years ago. While this board is more traditionalist, you may be removed from the living scene. Seriously hang out ten minutes with the hottest new names in jazz, and you will realize how unpretentious they are, and how much dedicated they are to moving things forward. If this insults you or the traditionalist on the board, so what. Jazz is still very much a living music, classical is not.
    Everyone tells me I should write music. They tell me because they know I can. I don't want to write my own music. I can express myself through other people's compositions. I change things. If people write their own music and they're not good at it that's their problem. I do what I want to do.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I'm starting a Mingus note for note tribute band, I've already punched 3 people.
    Wow.

  22. #21

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    Anyone remember Kind of Bloop?


  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Anyone remember Kind of Bloop?
    I've never heard that before. To me, that's more creative than the 'Blue' thing. And it's funny.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I'm starting a Mingus note for note tribute band, I've already punched 3 people.

    What do you say to a trombonist with 2 black eyes??

    Nothing, he's already been told twice....
    Hmm, yeah! Call it "Mingus, Blow by Blow"....

  25. #24

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    If you're NOT going to keep it real then do like they do in Japan;



    MOPDTK should complete their project by creating hologram characters from the original Kind of Blue session. That would be cool. If you're going to be fake go all the way.

  26. #25

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    Jazz and classical are not the same. Never have been, never will be.
    In terms of the tribute bands, if you are playing something note for note, in reality that is kind of missing the point, and the spirit of most Jazz. Jazz is a music is one of interpretations. Yeah, you can play a song written by somebody else, but the spirit to go off script, interpret and improvise around the song, basically make the part ones own. This is not disrespecting the art, but embracing what the art is. Even when you are playing your own composition, deviating is supposed to be expected. Jazz really is not necessarily playing what is on the page, but going off script, and knowing how to do so. It is not about following instructions, but rather to create something living and breathing with other people. I have heard these tribute bands myself, but every one I heard is very bland. If they are becoming more common it does make me shudder a little bit. It kind of sucks the spirit and soul out of jazz.