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inwalkedbud:
The more I consider things, you are so right. Basie was definitely the guy who was comping in the band. Green was playing tuned drum. That's what the archtop was in the Basie organization--tuned drum.
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10-30-2014 10:04 AM
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I don't recall seeing an encyclopedic entry anywhere defining what a "jazz guitarist" is nor that such a guitarist has to improvise. A guitarist just plays music. We all want to make something special out of it by adding the Jazz qualifier. In reality, some of us play more improvised music than others. Some of us are more interested in rhythm playing etc. I personally improvise almost everything. That has nothing to do with me being a "jazz guitarist" because I do it in every genre. I also don't do it out of principle, or out of the desire to create something unique and beautiful (although that might happen sometimes). Rather, I do it out of laziness and because it is funner for me that way with less work learning specific passages. It keeps everything fresh for me.I am very lucky that I have a decent ear or that would be impossible. If I had to play the same arrangement 10 times, that would be awfully boring. Playing the same tune 10 times and improvising keeps it fresh every time.
I have played arrangements in orchestras. It's ok, but too much work and gets boring. I also can't imagine comping using learned and practiced patterns working.
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Broyale,
Some good suggestions, here. Also, check out "If I Were A Bell," done by the Miles Davis Quintet on "Relaxin." This is beautiful, accessible 50s jazz. Davis, who later turned his back on this style, really had a super, mid-register thing going on in the 50s.
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I would also recommend the album "Feelin the Spirit," by Grant Green, with Herbie Hancock, Butch Warren, Billy Higgins, and Garvin Massfax. The songs--spirituals--are given a nice, shuffle beat and the swinging playing involves soloing that thematically stays close to the song melodies. Good album, good playing, and very accessible, bluesy jazz.
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That sure is a great record.
Originally Posted by Greentone
To throw out a more modern example, I always suggest Paul Motian Band's "Garden of Eden." Most of the solos on that record are 8 bars or less, there are several tunes without "solos," but rather, true collective improvisation. It's ridiculously good.
It's also a masterclass on how to play with other harmony instruments...3 guitars!
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Any shining examples of solo improvisation you care to share with me? Originally Posted by princeplanet
That's a start, but I'd be apologising for the way you caused it, there were good people here actually giving you great advice! If you detected any attitude, it's probably cos you served it up first
Just sayin' ....
Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Going to keep an open mind (and ears)Last edited by Broyale; 10-31-2014 at 03:59 PM.
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Have you ever watched Ken Burns' "Jazz" documentary series? Learning about the history of the art form might give you a greater appreciation for how the jazz solo developed and why people play what they do. Originally Posted by Broyale
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What about something like Eddie Harris' Listen Here. It's not swing, but damn that's a solo all the way through and melodic and funky too. Cedar Walton;s solo on Eddie Harris' version of The Shadow Of Your Smile is killing and only one chorus.
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Do you own an L5 or does it own you? Do you know much gear you could get for that stupid thing? Originally Posted by Broyale
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My apologies if my comments were interpreted as "mean". Definitely not the intention. Just trying to help and frankly. Personally, I like tough love. Give me the guy who will give it straight man - yeah, it stings, but then you improve.
FYI Henry, I sent Broyale an extremely informative and long PM some months ago in reply to the "Jazz Frustration" thread, as well as posted supportive comments in that thread. The PM in particular was very supportive and enthusiastic. I did not get a response. Which is fine...though it would have been nice to get a "thank you". So my comment that I promise not to try to help any further was because I feel exasparated after several sincere, well-intentioned attempts to help the guy. Other people are clearly better suited at helping him than I am, so I will lay-out.
I am sorry.Last edited by coolvinny; 10-31-2014 at 05:16 PM.
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Aw c'mon! There's thousands! Start with Louis Armstrong, Charlie Christian, Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins, Dexter Gordon, Stan Getz, Wes Montgomery, Cannonball Adderley, Jackie McLean, Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, that brings you up to the mid 60's.... that'll do for a while? Specific examples? All of it! Originally Posted by Broyale
(also, I did notice you started your post with a defiant "No"- but you decided to edit it out. I'm happy you did.)
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Prince planet - why are you being do confrontational? He may not know thousands of examples. I can understand. Clearly he doesn't want to wade through a bunch of possibly mediocre solos. He might want the concise, great, melodic, classic. I don't know.
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Eric Dolphy and Coltrane may not be helpful at all. I think rather than mere names specific examples might be more helpful.
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Clifford Brown. September Song.
Perdido off of Jazz at Massey Hall <- you can almost smell the energy from the audience in that recording
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Maybe it's good to let him wade... ultimately we all have to, it's part of the journey, right? And plucking plumbs from it all is how we acquire our unique sense of taste, and hence style, no? Besides, with all those artists mentioned, you know better than I that there are no mediocre solos with those guys! Originally Posted by henryrobinett
But yeah, maybe Dolphy is a bit advanced harmonically to be of interest to him, but rhythmically he's always worth checking out.
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Why let him wade? He's asking for help.
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Broyale has tunnel vision and it's kind of baffling. I'm no guitar teacher but it's not for lack of knowledge or ability. I'm just not right for it. People come at jazz and treat it like a science project. Why? I think you and Jeff are good at cutting through the BS when it comes to that. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
I think it's important for rhythm guitarists to be able to spot a good vocalist. They have to be able to see potential. They have to play bass. Not bop on a standup of course. They have to have a good understanding of all rhythm. They have to be strong players but not too strong. They have to be up on the latest technology.
If Broyale wants to be rhythm-only he's going to have to expand his skills. If he just wants to be a better guitar player, I can't help.
I'm always amazed at how many people there are that think they can teach. Guitar is my main instrument but I don't teach it. I've been at it for 43 years too. I can teach bass. I can teach about the business a bit.
Broyale wants to be a rhythm section player and I can relate to that. I don't solo and sing these days because I like it so much, I just want to control my life for now.
He's going to have to decide who to listen to- someone else or himself.
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11-02-2014, 08:44 AM #143destinytot GuestI agree. I think jazz improvisation is analogous to conversation, and each interlocutor's sensitivity to context drives the interaction (at least) as much as individual soloists' personal responses.At what point in my jazz journey am I supposed to be able to appreciate a 2 minute tune stretched out to nearly 10 minutes so everyone can gangbang the harmony?
Debauchery, too, is best in moderation (said he, sitting under the stars and sipping champagne from Stella's slipper...)At some point I'm like, "Sh*t, you guys wanna let the receptionist and janitor have a go at her too while she's still warm?"
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I don't know about tough love. I grew up with it in music but that doesn't make it right.
Tough love doesn't work. For example; I went into a jazz club about 6-7 years ago. It was a tiny place. After a few minutes I wanted to walk up to the band and say,
You play louder than any band I've heard. Turn that shit down. You're playing music that's 70 years old and it all sounds the same. You barely improvise. You don't even bother to dress the part.
Start acting like professionals.
Did I do that? Of course not. I wanted to though.
When I took a workshop years later guess who was running it? The bass player I saw that night. I wasn't plugged in for more than 2 seconds with a guitar I told him I didn't want to use before he say's, YOU'RE TOO LOUD!.
haha
Obviously the workshop didn't go well. It was a complete waste of time. I have bad jazz karma.
I say no to tough love.
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Does MOPDTK's Kind of Blue project have anything to do with the issue of tough love in the music business? Reading the interview it seems like it does. They want to justify what they're doing. Since improvisation can't be taught, tribute culture was bound to happen. People have told me- just play Bird. That's the tough love jazz of today.
I don't like copying people's solos and I'd rather suck being me.
What's the problem? What is there to talk about?
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How does the interview have anything to do with tough love? I read it as a sort of satire of "America's classical music" and a way to shove people into listening to music for all the intangible personal parts. Breath, articulation, tone color ... not just notes and licks.
I think the interview gives this project a really interesting place in the discussion of the whole jazz tradition v. innovation debate. My worry is that people will misinterpret it as an actual form of expression in and of itself. For example Downbeat gave it a great review and said that it should be super cool to be able to go see Kind of Blue performed live. No... just no. Establishment jazz has an obsession with tradition that borders on sucking the improvisation out of the music. I read their logic behind the recording as a sort of expose of that attitude by following it to its logical conclusion. The problem is that it can be easily misinterpreted as a new vein of musical expression to be tapped. Which would be pretty depressing to me.
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^^^
Some people are into tribute bands and some aren't. Satire? Sorry I don't buy that. You record it you own it.
Obviously copy music will be a big issue now. So will tough love. The movie Whiplash is causing a stir. Are they related? I don't know.Last edited by Stevebol; 11-02-2014 at 02:53 PM.
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"Jon [Irabagon, saxophones] went to the Julliard Jazz Program for a graduate program, and one of the requirements—you know, the Julliard Jazz program is under the aegis of Wynton Marsalis and Jazz at Lincoln Center—is that on your recital, you have to perform a transcribed solo.
So let’s say you’re doing four tunes at your recital. One of those tunes has to contain your transcription of somebody else’s solo and you have to play it in context, i.e. not improvise. But that is jazz? Big question mark right there. "
They're not trying to play jazz. They're trying to get at the heart of the institutionalization of jazz and the issues that are raised there. If you say it's not jazz then you are obviously saying that something that by it's sound is extremely high order jazz can be "not jazz" ... if this isn't jazz then obviously you've drawn a line somewhere. Where did you draw it and why? If this isn't jazz because it's not improvised then is hardcore conservative bebop club jazz improvising? They're drawing from a finite pool of licks? Why not push the line even further that way? So ... not saying this is the greatest music. It's not intended to be... it's concept art. It's supposed to provoke discussion. That's actually quite a lot to discuss.
I still don't get where tough love and Whiplash come into the MOPDTK thing?
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[QUOTE=inwalkedbud;472957
I still don't get where tough love and Whiplash come into the MOPDTK thing?[/QUOTE]
I think the tough love thing crept into this thread after Broyale asked for specific examples of improvisation that might lead to a sort of epiphany. Others were helpful and made suggestions, whereas as I was suggesting he put in the hard yards himself. Tough love. It doesn't get a good rap here, but that's OK, I don't post here because I'm fishing for "likes" ....
Funny you mentioned Whiplash, just saw it today, I'd like to start another thread about it, as it portrays extreme tough love!!! Yet rather than finding this edifying, or vindicating, it made me have an epiphany of my own : Tough love is perhaps only effective when applied to exceptionally gifted students, to fully challenge and exploit their gift in order to make the world a better place.
But to apply it to everyone will perhaps leave 999 casualties for every unearthed prodigy. Some will say 999 casualties is a small sacrifice in the name of Art, which exists in perpetuity (No tough love - no Bird). Others will say the untalented student's rights to an "unforced" education is paramount.
To tough love or not? Touch choice...
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I know this thread is a couple of days old, and I haven't read the 6 pages worth of comments, but here's my take.
I know two of the guys in the band: Peter and Jon (Trumpet and saxophone respectively). Now, I don't know Moppa or Kevin (bass, drums), but I'm familiar with their work.
Honestly, the interview might be Kevin sounding very professional about it, but I'm pretty certain they only did it because they wanted to troll the entire jazz scene and wanted what happened to happen. That's the kind of thing I know Peter for, he likes to mess with people and has a lot of fun doing it.
I find it really funny when I see people talking all this crap about the record and the band, especially because the people I see doing it are exactly the kind of people who wouldn't listen to the band anyways.
For those who don't know, Peter is probably the most technically gifted trumpet player I have ever had the chance to hear. I get to hear a lot of music working at a music venue in NYC. Jon is a really versatile musician, and can play with all sorts of guys. Big bands, straight ahead stuff, and is even in Mary Halvorson's group, which is pretty out. Sounds great in all of it.
Honestly, I found it pretty funny, and found the reactions of people who were appalled by this record hilarious.
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