Learn the shapes? Or learn the notes? - Perhaps we guitarists are lazy?

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by Sailor

I actually play this way...for lack of any real modal mastery. I would love to hear more or see some examples of moving shapes around.

Sailor, Herb Ellis is the guy for you. Late in his career he put out three book/CD sets: Swing Blues, Rhythm Shapes, and All The Shapes You Are.

The blues volume--which should be tackled first--introduces the chord shapes. You already know them, so don't expect a revelation. The wonder comes in visualizing the shapes while playing Herb's lines and internalizing the shapes so you can do your own thing with them. He plays 3 blues here (-C, F, and a slow Bb) with five or six choruses of each (except the slow blues, which is only 3). That's a lot of choruses to use in your own playing when you can't think of something!

"Rhythm Shapes" is all about playing the rhythm changes. He plays a lot of "A" section and "B" section lines (-8 bar phrases), some sticking to one shape and others combining two or more. Lot of material there, and it ends with Herb playing to 32-bar choruses that you're supposed to master as a springboard to your own work.

The last volume is "All The Shapes You Are," which is about the standard "All The Things You Are." You learn the changes and a slew of lines from Herb's "vamps" (-8 bars are so to each chord, in some cases a ii-V change) and finally another solo at the end for the novice to master.

Not a lot of theory, but a whole lot of music. Herb was such a melodic player and hearing this, you learn how he conceived his lines.

[Sailor]

Thanks so much markerhodes! I will look into these books ASAP as I seem to have hit a wall in my playing.

When I play 12 Bar Jazz/Blues, Swing, I totally see the chord shapes, and play off these...I hope this is playing the changes? (I don't just noodle around with blues and mixo scales...I outline the chords).

The only trouble is, so far, it seems to all sound too much alike. I also seem to use Major Pentatonic a lot...when I analyze it!!

Thanks, Sailor

[Robertkoa]

Well -I never cared about scales much- I care if I'm on the root third fifth, second etc. - THAT's the color/flavor for me.

A ninth is a ninth regardless if you're playing a Dorian scale or a Plutonian Minor-

But I am lazy - I use shapes and melodic cadences- melodic cadences are the common denominator of all improv- from Blues, to Bluegrass, from people who just play totally "by ear" to the most knowledgeable Coltrane/Stravinsky monster - got to have melodic cadences to "tie" the improv to the musical foundation- and most of the time it's not really the* SCALE it's the chord tone or extension that you rest on - hence - melodic cadence- the "stop" tones chord tones and possible extensions...........................

I SHOULD know the notes instantly - but I really just "feel" them by where they are in the chord and just hear them in my mind as I go......................................lazy .

*the SCALE isn't WHY it works - the scale only works 'cause it has the chord tones and extensions