Jazz & Marijuana:

[AlohaJoe]

I went through drug and alcohol recovery 20+ years ago and I'm grateful every day that the compulsion is no longer there. Not to say it could never return, but so far, so good. I speak from my own experience... nothing good ever came of it unless you think losing 10 years and gaining a police record is good.

Maybe that's why at the time I played cowboy chords and sang tunes with lyrics that were easy to remember and had no time or patience (or focus) to actually learn to play the guitar well. There's no way in hell I would have been able to remember that I can play a major arpeggio based on the b5 of a m7b5 chord when I was f'ed up. Even after I straightened out I played with pot smokers who forgot what key they were in (in the middle of tunes) and drunks who thought they were the star of every show, but no more... I respect myself and the music enough to want to do it right, and I LOVE playing music as well as I possibly can with other players who feel the same way.

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

This is clearly written by someone who hasn't the first clue about addiction.

Jeff . . . (you'll have to forgive me, I just can't bring myself to call you "fat" Jeff . .) That comment is almost as presumtious as the one I ranted against. It's also totally inappropriate to this thread and my post. The reason it's inappropriate is because kojo27 wasn't an addict when he made the choice to do the blow as an escape or a crutch.

The reason it's presumptious is because you don't know me or my personal situation. I have a 36 year old son living at home with me because he has struggled with addiction to Oxy's, heroin, methadone, depacote, xanax and many other prescription drugs. He lost his wife, his job, only sees his 2 beautiful sons every other week end and can't get a job due to his criminal record, driven by his addiction. So, don't you dare tell me I don't know the first this about addiction. I've lived with it for more than a decade. His life was miserable because of stupid choices! He wasn't born an addict.. . . he chose to be one. I thank the Lord he's well on the road to recovery. But, if he relapses, it will not be because he has a desease. It will be because he makes a stupid choice to start doing that poison again. He is well beyond the physical aspect of the addiction.

Who ever believe the bull shit that they feed you in the 12 steps program is a fool in search of excuses. Drug addiction is a chioce, not a desease.

There are two things in life that we are in ultimate control of . . . attitude and choices. We are also ultimately responsible for both.

[Kojo27]

Sorry for the thread digression. There's *some* connection, I think...

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Height of arrogance? I'd probably be better off leaving this one alone, but I can't.

You can't? But you have a choice... : ) (Just kidding.)

BTW, I'm not using "arrogance" in the soap opera, sleaze-drama way; I'm talking about arrogance that is the belief that we have it all together and all figured out. It's a psychological state I'm referring to.

Anyway, I think my point is made for me with this statement: "I agree that we don't know what lies around the next curve, as you say. Some of those things are absolutely beyond our control. What is NOT beyond our control, are the day to day choices we make. We and we alone control those choices."

My point is reinforced, manifold, because of your admitted realization that "Some of those things [around the next curve] are "absolutely beyond our control."

If future events are beyond our control, we can't possibly know how we will react to them. They could (and one day probably will) be things we've never imagined could happen (not to ME!!!) -- so we cannot imagine our reactions either. You don't know how far down you'll be pushed. There is a point past which you've never been -- never even dreamed of. And when things happen at these depths, you are no longer reacting as you've convinced yourself you always will. In a realm of unimagined happenings, we are also in a realm of unimagined reactions.

We like to THINK we know exactly how we will always react - for this is a good way of coping with the horrors of life on this planet. Holding to this belief gives us a sense that we are in control of our futures. But, as every philosopher whose writings I've ever read points out, we're *really* in control of nothing - zip, zero. We don't even know that the sun will rise tomorrow. We don't know that we'll have a job tomorrow, that our families won't die in a fast-food shooting, that we won't snap and kill someone... just to name some of the big things. We're in control of nothing, but this is too chaotic and frightening a thing to think about, so we MUST adopt some means of coping, of fooling ourselves. And if you don't believe that simple truth, I'll wish you godspeed and hope you're one of the lucky ones who are never shaken from their dream by the long, bony fingers of what is really real.

kj

[Buster Loaf]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Although, Armstrong's recording's really are the "Satchmo show." The backing band may as well have been canned. I'm talking about playing WITH a musician, not on top of them.

oink oink

YouTube Video

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

Sorry for the thread digression. There's *some* connection, I think...



You can't? But you have a choice... : ) (Just kidding.)

BTW, I'm not using "arrogance" in the soap opera, sleaze-drama way; I'm talking about arrogance that is the belief that we have it all together and all figured out. It's a psychological state I'm referring to.

Anyway, I think my point is made for me with this statement: "I agree that we don't know what lies around the next curve, as you say. Some of those things are absolutely beyond our control. What is NOT beyond our control, are the day to day choices we make. We and we alone control those choices."

My point is reinforced, manifold, because of your admitted realization that "Some of those things [around the next curve] are "absolutely beyond our control."

If future events are beyond our control, we can't possibly know how we will react to them. They could (and one day probably will) be things we've never imagined could happen (not to ME!!!) -- so we cannot imagine our reactions either. You don't know how far down you'll be pushed. There is a point past which you've never been -- never even dreamed of. And when things happen at these depths, you are no longer reacting as you've convinced yourself you always will. In a realm of unimagined happenings, we are also in a realm of unimagined reactions.

We like to THINK we know exactly how we will always react - for this is a good way of coping with the horrors of life on this planet. Holding to this belief gives us a sense that we are in control of our futures. But, as every philosopher whose writings I've ever read points out, we're *really* in control of nothing - zip, zero. We don't even know that the sun will rise tomorrow. We don't know that we'll have a job tomorrow, that our families won't die in a fast-food shooting, that we won't snap and kill someone... just to name some of the big things. We're in control of nothing, but this is too chaotic and frightening a thing to think about, so we MUST adopt some means of coping, of fooling ourselves. And if you don't believe that simple truth, I'll wish you godspeed and hope you're one of the lucky ones who are never shaken from their dream by the long, bony fingers of what is really real.

kj

"That's a well thought out and compelling objection . . . . over rulled!!!!" (Fred Gwynne as the judge, My Cousin Vinny)

I'm not buying it.

One of the situations you point out as being beyond our control, is getting fired from a job. I can confidently say I will not go out and rob a bank or resort to a life of crime to replace the income. I am in control of making that choice. If I do resort to a life of crime to replace the income . . . that too is a choice. Just one of many responses to all of your examples that I could site.

"Given stable mental health, we ARE in control of our actions, our reactions and our attitudes. We are not in control of something driven by a chemical imballance or a defect in our mental health affecting our ability to rationalize or causing us to be delusional."

Perhaps our common ground could be found in that paragraph.

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Jeff . . . (you'll have to forgive me, I just can't bring myself to call you "fat" Jeff . .) That comment is almost as presumtious as the one I ranted against. It's also totally inappropriate to this thread and my post. The reason it's inappropriate is because kojo27 wasn't an addict when he made the choice to do the blow as an escape or a crutch.

The reason it's presumptious is because you don't know me or my personal situation. I have a 36 year old son living at home with me because he has struggled with addiction to Oxy's, heroin, methadone, depacote, xanax and many other prescription drugs. He lost his wife, his job, only sees his 2 beautiful sons every other week end and can't get a job due to his criminal record, driven by his addiction. So, don't you dare tell me I don't know the first this about addiction. I've lived with it for more than a decade. His life was miserable because of stupid choices! He wasn't born an addict.. . . he chose to be one. I thank the Lord he's well on the road to recovery. But, if he relapses, it will not be because he has a desease. It will be because he makes a stupid choice to start doing that poison again. He is well beyond the physical aspect of the addiction.

Who ever believe the bull shit that they feed you in the 12 steps program is a fool in search of excuses. Drug addiction is a chioce, not a desease.

There are two things in life that we are in ultimate control of . . . attitude and choices. We are also ultimately responsible for both.

I'm going to regret this, but this is close enough to my heart to have to respond. So.

Bullshit. Total bullshit. I feel for your son, and I feel for you for having to live with that, but - I hate to tell you this, friend, once you're in, you're in. It may be true that a personal choice is made at the beginning - nobody held a gun to my head and told me to use drugs or to start drinking alcohol at the age of 13 - but once you're on that road, the power of choice is GONE. That may seem completely alien to you, but it becomes an impossibility to NOT use or drink for an addict. I think you don't get this, because (a) you have never lived it yourself, and (b) the person in your life who IS living it is still in its grips. At least, that is how it sounds from your post.

I laugh at your statement that 12 step programs do not work. They sure as hell do, and I see them working every day. In myself, and in countless others. Whether or not you buy into the whole "disease" model or not is pretty much beside the point; it is inarguable that there are miraculous and positive results from working the 12 steps of recovery. Now, you will probably come back to me and say, "well, my son went to <insert recovery program here> and he's still out there using!" To which I would respond, he probably didn't work the steps. He may have given the impression that he was, but it was not whole-hearted. I know this because I went down the half-ass path of recovery myself before. The result was many relapses, much pain, and several more years of wasted time in my life. Yet, when I really did get honest with myself and start working a 12-step recovery program, I began to recover.

I'm really not trying to be harsh here. I can sympathize with the pain you must be in. And I know the pain he is in. I wish I could help you, because I f*cking hate addiction and I hate what it does to a person and their family. But one of the first things I learned was that recovery isn't necessarily for those that need it. It's for those that want it, and go after it. Until he does, I am afraid that nothing will improve.

[AlohaJoe]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

He wasn't born an addict.. . . he chose to be one. I thank the Lord he's well on the road to recovery. But, if he relapses, it will not be because he has a desease. It will be because he makes a stupid choice to start doing that poison again. He is well beyond the physical aspect of the addiction. Who ever believe the bull shit that they feed you in the 12 steps program is a fool in search of excuses. Drug addiction is a chioce, not a desease.

You'd be hard pressed to find a drug/alcohol counselor who will tell you that's the whole story. I'm sorry you've had to go through this with your son, and I sympathize with him as well but his recovery isn't helped by your insistence that it's all his fault. There are bad choices involved of course but there are also social factors. There are genetic factors and there are usually family issues... I'm sorry, but your attitude is from the dark ages.
BBC News - Brains may be wired for addiction

[mr. beaumont]

We're pretty far off track here. I think this one's toast.