Learning the history vs learning what really inspires you

[Silence]

I just wanted to know how you guys felt about this.

I totally respect tradition and listen to a lot of the guys who came before the current torch holders, but I am way more excited about listening to and transcribing the newer guys. I know a lot of people suggest that learning from the guys who came before the current players is so essential, but if it comes down to learning a solo of someone that really gets me jived vs learning a Wes solo because it is good for my playing, I pick the former.

That doesn't mean I am opposed to transcribing older stuff, but if one were more interested in learning more "modern" sounds and has the capacity to understand what is being played......well, I think you understand what I am getting at. If you are going for a particular sound, why would you invest more time into what is considered essential if it doesn't stimulate you as much as something else?

The point I am trying to make here is that when Jazz was coming up there was a lot less to reference to. While those guys were transcribing their idols, they had a lot less information to assimilate in regards to Jazz tradition, I believe. I am sure there will be opposing remarks, but I am not intending to start a war. If my reasoning is flawed, then I want to be educated.

Once again, I am all for learning as much as you can, but if the point of playing an instrument is for personal enjoyment and you get more enjoyment from something that is current, then why not start there if you don't have any "technical difficulties" in learning the stuff?

[cosmic gumbo]

Play whatever moves you. Tradition is just respecting the influences. It's nice to know when the riffs you are stealing from one modern player are actually the riffs he stole from someone else. It's always good to find your way back to the origins, and eventually we all do, but start with what turns you on.

[AmundLauritzen]

I think that if you're not having fun in the process, then why bother at all?
Play what you like to listen to. A lot of the contemporary sounding players have a lot of essential vocabulary in their playing so you'll end up with a more refined sound. Besides, your ear is selective. Lines that really move you will be more quickly assimilated and will show up more often in your playing.

As long as the player you're transcribing has good time and good melodies, I don't think you can go wrong.
Go for it!

[Banksia]

I listen to whatever I like because I like it. I don't care if it's Lonnie Johnson or Ellington from 1930, Parker from 1950, Miles from 1970, etc, etc.

[jmstritt]

I think the important thing is to be firmly grounded in the roots of the music, and then you will be able to better understand what you are doing moving forward. By all means listen and transcribe the modern guys, but if you have a solid foundation in the classic guys (Wes, Johnny Smith, Joe Pass, Jimmy Rainey, etc) I feel it will benefit you more. The goal I have always had is to take that and move it one step further. Not to abandon tradition but to push it forward. It is great to have older influences, but not so great to never leave that one area.

I think that if you already have a good grounding in straight ahead, you are definitely doing the right thing to push it to the next level!

[bako]

The first jazz recordings that caught my attention were Sun Ship, Ascension and a Love Supreme by John Coltrane, Out To Lunch by Eric Dolphy, Freedom Now Suite by Max Roach, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, Charles Mingus, etc. It was several years before I started thinking about where did this music emerge from. A big influence on me was the level of respect the musicians themselves had for the tradition and past innovators of the music. I was also influenced by musicians with omnivorous tendencies and listen to music from all corners of the world. The internet makes this easier than ever.

I say follow your interests and passions. We are not all trying to end up in the same place. I trust that you will see if and when it will be helpful to dig into the works of predecessors and seek input beyond your present focus. History will still be there when you are ready.

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by bako

The first jazz recordings that caught my attention were Sun Ship, Ascension and a Love Supreme by John Coltrane, Out To Lunch by Eric Dolphy, Freedom Now Suite by Max Roach, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, Charles Mingus, etc.

Wow, you started off listening to some pretty hip shit!

It took me a while time to build my jazz ears to where I could really appreciate that type of stuff. Of course now those are some of my favorites :-)

[Kman]

I think the really talented players learn many different things, old and new over time. I took lessons with a great player years ago who was a master at bebop, but he could also sound exactly like Pat Metheny if he wanted. Just learn what you enjoy because your tastes will change over time.

[TruthHertz]

You have to have an absolutely unshakable foundation in those that came before. There's no other way unless you've fully assimilated the tradition. 12 years ago I began with recordings of Palestrina and I have been studiously transcribing my way up the time line. Last week I began Buxtehude's early works. I may not like it but I'll be a better improviser by about the next millennia. It's also taught me a few choice phrases in German in the process!
Score!
David

[mr. beaumont]

Nothing wrong with having a focus, but never close your ears.

The secrets of the current masters lines often lie in the past...there's precedent for almost everything, and sometimes the precedent is easier to digest.

I also think you'll rob yourself of some serious challenges and fun by not at least exploring some bop stuff...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Interesting topic. Just don't be surprised if you find yourself wandering backwards in time.

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Nothing wrong with having a focus, but never close your ears.

The secrets of the current masters lines often lie in the past...there's precedent for almost everything, and sometimes the precedent is easier to digest.

I also think you'll rob yourself of some serious challenges and fun by not at least exploring some bop stuff...

Well put.

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

You have to have an absolutely unshakable foundation in those that came before. There's no other way unless you've fully assimilated the tradition. 12 years ago I began with recordings of Palestrina and I have been studiously transcribing my way up the time line. Last week I began Buxtehude's early works. I may not like it but I'll be a better improviser by about the next millennia. It's also taught me a few choice phrases in German in the process!
Score!
David

You started with Palenstrina? You've skipped centuries of tradition by doing so!! What about all the organum of the Notre Dame school? Or all the dudes like Machaut and de Vitry pushing the modern envelope in Ars Nova? Don't you think that might be where Palestrina got his licks?

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

You started with Palenstrina? You've skipped centuries of tradition by doing so!!

Busted! Yeah I grew up in a shaped note family and, well, you know, I'm kind of rebellious that way. They nearly disowned me that Thanksgiving I went home humming some polyphony. I guess I really should go back and transcribe those early standards. How ever did those cats exist without Amazing Slow Downer? Um, Mr. Montpellier, could you please play that one again, at half speed?
David

[FatJeff]

I hear ya on the polyphony thing. How the hell can you hear the sacred message in the chant if you've got people singing different pitches, and even different rhythms??

But as far as vocabulary goes, I've been transcribing a lot of old sackbut solos.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

But as far as vocabulary goes, I've been transcribing a lot of old sackbut solos.

I get tired of explaining that my homemade serpent ("squarepent") is not a bong.



Old school:

[TruthHertz]

I get tired of explaining that my Krummhorn is not a flaky pastry.
David

[markf]

I enjoy reading biographies of musicians, jazz, and rock, doesn't help my playing, but it is often entertaining, and shows where they were what they have done etc.

and watching music documentaries, there's a great one free on the net, about mingus, very interesting,

anita o'day, miles, roy orbison, (picked cotton in texas at one point)

and so on.

there's no end to what you can learn, no matter where you start. and you can start anywhere you like. I don't accept that you have to learn this tune, that scale that chord, and the like. specially if you want to develop your own style.

[markf]

can you post some images of the sack-butt work you've been doing?