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#1
07-30-2011, 01:46 PM
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 Free Jazz.............? I recently purchased "Out to Lunch" by Eric Dolphy and I have become addicted to this album.... I really want to start analyzing, playing, and writing free jazz but I don't even have the slightest clue where to start. Listening is a big part of it but I feel that this style is so complex on so many different levels. So where would be a good place to start in getting a basic understanding of free jazz? This might be a completely off beat question because there is no universal formula for free-jazz but there has to be someway of understanding this music right? Or maybe I'm just crazy? Also, another free-jazz/avant-grade album I love is Weasels Ripped My Flesh. (Yes that is a Frank Zappa and Mothers of Invention album but lets try to avoid the discussion about his odd relationship with jazz if we can.)      |
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#2
07-30-2011, 02:33 PM
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Last edited by cosmic gumbo : 07-30-2011 at 02:36 PM. |
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#3
07-30-2011, 03:31 PM
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| Do you live in a city with a Free scene? Begin with attending concerts/gigs where people play free. There's a complex answer to your question. This is truly a field where the genre has no established rules but practitioners of it will often have rules and guidelines more strict than any "above the radar" jazz. Ask a dozen players, get a dozen answers. That's why if there's a scene, it's good to get to know the character of the music as the scene develops. You'll find Cecil Taylor's rules as complex as any modern composer in the schooled orchestral genre. You'll find people in the sphere of the Art Ensemble of Chicago that will include dance in their music. You'll find people like Bill Frisell who are comfortable with players like Tim Berne, and at the same time will include free improv segments of his live performances that organically blend into tunes so seamlessly that people hear them as beautiful introductions, completely unaware that they love free improv. You'll find kids in jam bands that play without a clue. You'll find people that believe the more raucous and "atonal" it is, and the less they know what they're doing, the more they are being "free." You'll find people that are giants in the field that may sheepishly admit they were too high to remember some of their iconic recordings (I know this from personal experience  .) So it's really a conundrum. I considered opening a thread here about Free Jazz, but I realized the mix of vitriolic hatred, misunderstanding, dismissal and confusion was problematic. I will share a thought Dave Tronzo passed to me. Free jazz is not free at all, it's the most disciplined of improvisational music because it takes everything you know as an artist and puts the responsibility of creating order on the player and the players' ability to listen. My advice might be to find others that have the exploratory spirit, and begin by playing with others and listening to the way you compose when nothing is given. It will help you when you begin listening to people that are performing and recording the music. Stick with it. It's exciting! David Last edited by TruthHertz : 07-30-2011 at 04:14 PM. |
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#5
07-30-2011, 05:10 PM
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#6
07-30-2011, 05:25 PM
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| Right, "Out to Lunch" is actually tightly composed...some of the solos might be "free" of a clear tonal center/centers, but the music is actually rather complex and the band is tight! Free jazz...there's been more bad free jazz made than good...I agree with max chill, it seems to me the best free stuff I've heard is by cats who can play it straight too if they want...I guess that's why I like hearing a guy like Trane play free, or Joe Lovano, as opposed to Peter Brotzmann (who I'm sure somebody will post playing "Stella" straight up and swinging) who sounds like a guy having a temper tantrum thru a saxophone... Then again, there's exceptions...I like Sonny Sharrock's stuff, and I haven't run across his Bop recordings...but he gets a pass, cuz he's a guitar player, maybe... |
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#7
07-30-2011, 05:37 PM
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#8
07-30-2011, 05:49 PM
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| Ornette Coleman's Shape of Jazz to Come is the Kind of Blue of free jazz. Supremely listenable music that makes me want to quit playing and work harder at the same time. Dolphy is on that record. |
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#9
07-30-2011, 07:34 PM
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| Check out Sonny Sharrock and also Dom Minasi. Dom is definitely one of the most free players out there, and there are several interviews on his site that discuss how he goes about it, and why he started playing in that style.
__________________ Barney Kessel was asked, “What’s the hardest thing about studio work?” He replied, “Finding a parking place.” "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk |
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#10
07-31-2011, 12:27 AM
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| 2 performances of rare beauty: ‪Mary Halvorson Trio, The Vortex, 14.12.09‬‏ - YouTube ‪Mary Halvorson Trio - Trio #12‬‏ - YouTube |
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#11
07-31-2011, 03:54 AM
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| I'm going to go ahead and say that Out To Lunch is free jazz, at the risk of disagreeing with those who say it isn't. I think there are at least two (if not many more) types of free jazz. The sort of just go play anything you want as long as you want based on nothing other than what moves you in the moment. Most free jazz I know of, does not fit in to this, though I am sure there is plenty of it out there. But the other type that I know more of is where, yes, there is structure of some sort. It could be as simple as a melody. A melody with some sort of composed rhythmic motif. It could be as simple as, everyone will play an F# note 4 times and then base your free improv off of that. To me what makes jazz able to be called free is the lack of distinct pre arranged harmonic changes. And usually the rhythm section can accompany the soloist however they want, but sometimes their parts are organized. I guess you could say that this is a combination of free and not free, but I think that I would just call any jazz where the chords are not really present and the soloist is playing more from the theme of the melody (or not) than anything else to be 'free jazz' Ornette Coleman for instance is one of the pioneers of free jazz, but a lot of his music is very well arranged. At least the heads are. So there are different amounts of 'free' in free jazz the way I see it. And to me, that makes Out to Lunch something I would say falls more into the category of free jazz than anything else. My favorite free artist is the Vandermark 5. The arrangements are very very complex and very very interesting. And during the solos there are often some sort of composed backgrounds or motifs, but there is a ton of free playing and never any chords directly intended. This is to me what defines free. The lack of traditional harmony or changes, and varying degrees of free band improv and occasional arrangement of heads or backgrounds. Last edited by exarctly : 07-31-2011 at 03:57 AM. |
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#12
07-31-2011, 03:58 AM
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| tyner and trane i'm not exactly sure that people can really define what free jazz is but i have think it would've somewhat started with McCoy Tyner and John Coltrane...so much to be learned....the very strong sounding voicings in 4ths to make lasting vamps, the sweeping saxophone lines, not to mention the overall cohesion of the group (with jimmy garrison and elvin jones). lots of soul in the albums of that period i.e. "a love supreme" or if you wanna go out there "sun ship" |
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#13
07-31-2011, 05:15 AM
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| Free Jazz invites the question: What is jazz? It's a very exciting time we live in and I'm glad this thread seems to have some good open minded ideas to it. Look at history, movements have always come out of ideas, fresh ideas that have given birth to something unseen, unheard of, unthought of and have come out of a very real necessity to fill a void. Often these new movements have been seen as individually initiated, but in truth they have been realized out of communities; and individuals that didn't have to labour under the shadows and rules of an older paradigm. These movements all enjoyed a time of freedom before outsiders gave them a name, identified characteristics or "rightness" and definition and announced individuals who were elevated as genre police. At the inception of every movement is a wave of pure inspiration and the coalescence of energy from the deductive thinking of a group. Inductive thinking and labeling only comes afterwards from the outside; from critics, self proclaimed authorities and people that don't actually "get" the process that made it to begin with. Bebop at its start was much freer than what it eventually became. It included a lot of experimentation on so many more levels before it was a genre. Parker's music was much more than the collection of approach notes, embellishments we study, much more than the line of phrases we transcribe: it was a study of space and motiv that was honed night after night (who listens to and studies the stuff from Benedetti's collection? Some of it is out... look at that as a collective and the forest emerges from the trees.) Monk's music was a study of space, shape and dissonance, and though we play his tunes in a modern way, very few actually attempt to know his sense of framing, or want to approach, no less understand his spirit. The spirit of bebop before it had a name. Herbie Nichols, a great composer I feel kept the essence of that music alive is still relatively obscure because it's convenient to look at movements as limited in range and scope. All of this is to say that right now we are experiencing the flux, nebulous experimentation, pre-labeling excitement and truth of spirit that comes from searching for antithesis. Before we get locked into a "free jazz" synthesis, those of us that can, should make music by our own rules. We must have the highest standards of the thesis, that means serious theoretical and practical chops, but what we make can be something truly new and can carry with it the seeds of a new music. Where I live, there are small venues where musicians perform nightly in this spirit. They are all musicians of the highest order. They perform for audiences of 6, they perform to packed houses, and they also perform for the music. Many of them won't call this music jazz anymore. (Hell, Ellington wouldn't call it jazz.) That's the point. We're not trying to be reactionary, it's just free because the gravity that holds it together is coming from within. It wouldn't be wrong to think of it as pre-genre music. Sometimes there will be music that challenges the audience to understand. Sometimes it may even become a standard or an Ellington tune. Sometimes it doesn't work. But it's why we became improvisors. ... and if some people want to debate whether it's real jazz or not, free jazz or not, jazz in any way or not, or what is jazz, that's in another realm completely. That's the realm of the left brain. What's going on in real time, well, you gotta be there. David Last edited by TruthHertz : 07-31-2011 at 05:22 AM. |
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#15
07-31-2011, 07:58 AM
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| That's the trick. It's often below the radar, but clubs, venues, some academic institutions or festivals will be magnets for communities. You find like minded musicians and you put something together. You by a music school? Put up a flyer or check out the bulletin board where others with a similar interest might want to get together. Craigslist? In New York there're so many little festivals, you show up and talk to the person next to you; the scene is so small and tight that it doesn't take long to be "in the river." Seattle I'll bet has a similar set up, Philly has events in converted firehouses and the like, Boston has clubs dedicated to just this kind of music. Find people that might share your enthusiasm, maybe work with art communities, work grass roots and find an overlooked space to do it. Do it regularly and create a scene. I think "free jazz" has a long history of this kind of organization. DIY. Do It Yourself. Where I am, I've organized a drawing session and musicians play live free improv as models pose and artists draw. It's really great. Just thought of it and did it . Now I've got connections in the visual arts community and the music has taken on a whole new perspective. What do any of you guys do? David |
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#16
07-31-2011, 10:45 AM
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| David, I really enjoy reading your post above. I particularly like the way you remind people that it is the spirit collaboration that keeps the music moving. Sometimes the mainstream tries to give all the credit to just one hero (Parker, Coleman), and does not acknowledge how much it was a community of people that made something. |
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#17
07-31-2011, 11:30 AM
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| If everything was created from nothing then why can't music be created from nothing. Its all in the spirit of invention and community. Thanks everybody there were some great posts |
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#18
07-31-2011, 12:03 PM
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| +1 on "The Shape of Jazz to Come". Classic. I think this record really started it all. 1959! (if I'm not mistaken). Incredible. Ornette had it right here. Predates anything else. Definitely check out what Mark Ribot is doing in the free realm. He's probably the only guitarist I've heard that I liked. Not just making noises. Again, he can play straightahead too. Anyone that can't is BSing when they play free IMHO.
__________________ Waaaam...Doggy! Gear: 1940 Epiphone DeLuxe w/ KA PU 2009 Gibson ES335 Historic 59' Reissue w/ Lollar LW HB Nash T52 w/ Lollar 52's 2008 Gibson Les Paul 54' Historic Reissue w/ Lollar P90s Headstrong Lil' King w/ Weber 10A125 1965 Fender Deluxe Marshall 1974X w/ Scumback Scumnico/H55 Seattle guitar lessons http://www.matthewmeldonguitar.com/ |
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#19
07-31-2011, 12:30 PM
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| My favourites are Dolphy's 'At The Five Spot' and 'In Europe'!! I also love Ornette Coleman's 'Something Else'... is this already Free? I think there was something special in the water in '59-the Grand Cru-year of Jazz: Miles Davis - Kind of Blue, Charles Mingus - Mingus Ah Um , Dave Brubeck - Time Out, Ornette Coleman - The Shape of Jazz to Come,John Coltrane - Giant Steps |
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#20
07-31-2011, 12:52 PM
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Dave Tronzo:
There is some amazing music going on when you're into the no-charts free improv scene but so much of it is undocumented and unrecorded. And probably will remain so because record companies won't perceive a market. It's very much alive and a "live" music. David Joe Morris is also a guitarist doing some very important free improv. And Berne Nix, a master of motivic development. Always full of surprize and always hangs together.
He played with Ornette and Prime Time. Speaking of which, Mick Goodrick is not thought of as a free player but people don't realize how much time he spent with Dewey Redmond, Paul Motian and Charlie Haden, showing that free is not always "fire in a petshop."
As I've said, I've seen and heard much from these players that is more representative of their talents but live performances are not documented on the whole. Go out and check it out yourself, the music needs it. David | |||||||||||||
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#21
08-01-2011, 10:07 PM
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| "Out to lunch" is a great album - I agree! ... But it ain't free jazz... Even Ornette's "Free Jazz" album had still a pulse and is easy to listen to (at least for me - had a period when I mainly listened to free jazz). Coltrane's "Ascension" for example is a little bit harder stuff... But I agree with Max Chill: I can follow musicians who made their way through different styles even if they perhaps play free. But I cannot follow musicians who hardly can play an instrument properly and say that they are playing free jazz. There are also examples of musicians who switched from dixieland directly to free jazz, just to "express" themselves. Also in jazz there are charlatans.... |
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#22
08-01-2011, 10:27 PM
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| Song X is my favorite Metheny album. I thought I'd throw that into the mix given that it's one of the more free playing of his recordings. I've never heard Zero Tolerance for Silence but I believe it's awful. Free? The recording he made with Derek Bailey escaped me too. Anyone hear that one? It would certainly qualify as free by virtue of his collaborator. Back to Mary Halvorson. I think she deserves to be more widely known. Dragon's Head is one of my picks from last year. See post #10 if you're curious. Last edited by whatswisdom : 08-01-2011 at 10:30 PM. |
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#23
08-01-2011, 11:27 PM
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| I'd like to hear Mary Halvorson's version of The Catfish Strut. |
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#24
08-01-2011, 11:41 PM
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#25
08-02-2011, 08:25 AM
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#26
08-02-2011, 08:45 AM
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Yeah David | ||||
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#27
08-02-2011, 10:27 AM
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| Still say Out To Lunch is free jazz. In that it has much more free sound and style than it does any other kind of tonally centered jazz. I know that it is very well structured and arranged as somewhat melodic tunes/heads. But so its a lot of other free jazz. I consider anything free that is not based on chord changes for improvisation. And anything where most of the improv is free. IMO Any album that can be more categorized as free than structured in the traditional way, to me gets to use the term free jazz. Maybe it is less free than say a Cecil Taylor album, but it is not much less free than most things by Ornette. Even much of Albert Ayler stuff has a strong sense of melody and arrangement. Any time you listen to improv and there really is not recurring chord cycles or repeating vamps or motifs, I think it is more free than anything else. Almost all the bass playing drumming and Vib playing seems very free to wander wherever it wants to as do most of the solos. During the solos the rhythm section nver locks in to something that is cycled through repeatedly. If it is not free tell me how you would improvise on it using tonal centers during which bars of the choruses? Or what cycle of tonality you would use as a comper that would repeat every 2-36 measures? If the answer is, you wouldn't most of the time, you would just play anything you wanted...then I think it is free jazz. No offense to those who differ with me on this, I just really think this album is free more so than anything else you could call it. I could be wrong. But I am not convinced now. The best I can see on a quick re-glance throguh the tracks is maybe Gazzelloni the vibes seem to repeat a certain amount of material or shapes solo to solo. That would make it closer to being less free. Still, I do not see this same type of thing on every track and even on this one it seems like the other players are very free. I see sometimes patterns locked down mainly by the vibes on some of the tracks...but at the very least I hope we could agree that there are a lot of elements of free jazz in this record, while I would still put it in that category of my library even if some of you would not. Though I am willing to be shown that I am missing something in my understanding of this album or the style. The thing that perhaps I would also entertain is that labeling jazz is sort of a controversial thing already. Since a lot of great jazz is difficult to label and is a blend of a lot of things we do and do not know. So this album perhaps is best thought of in those terms. Just good music. Still, I do feel comfortable calling Bird Bebop, Desmond/Brubeck Cool Jazz. Count Basie swing. "So What" modal jazz. Cecil Taylor free, and I would say Out to Lunch free more so than anything else. So labels I do not think are always bad. Just when we get handcuffed by them. Last edited by exarctly : 08-02-2011 at 11:00 AM. |
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#28
08-02-2011, 12:59 PM
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| Equating "free" with "avant-garde" or "experimental", or simply stuff that is more "outside" than classic bop, this music is some of my favorite. Without getting into semantics, here's some recordings I find essential (you'll notice within this list there's a huge variety of music, which is why I don' want to concern myself with the exact meaning of "free"): Eric Dolphy - Outward Bound, Out There, Far Cry, Live At The Five Spot Volumes 1 & 2 (including Memorial Album), Conversations, Iron Man, Out To Lunch!, Complete Last Recordings In Hilversum & Paris Ornette Coleman - Something Else!!!!!, Tomorrow Is The Question!, The Shape Of Jazz To Come, Change Of The Century, This Is Our Music, Free Jazz: A Collective Improvisation, Live At The Golden Circle Volumes 1 & 2 Cecil Taylor - Unit Structures John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings, Complete 1961 Copenhagen Concert, A Love Supreme, Impressions, Live At Birdland, My Favorite Things: Live At Newport (1963 and '65 shows in one set), Ascension, Meditations Albert Ayler - Spiritual Unity Boker Little - Out Front Grachan Moncur III - Evolution, Some Other Stuff Bobby Hutcherson - Dialogue Sam Rivers - Contours Jackie McLean - Let Freedom Ring, Right Now!, Destination... Out! Joe Henderson - In 'N' Out, Inner Urge Tony Williams - Life Time Archie Shepp - Four For Trane Andrew Hill - Black Fire, Point Of Departure, Compulsion!!!!! John McLaughlin - Extrapolation, Where Fortune Smiles Larry Young - Unity Miles Davis - In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew Wayne Shorter - The All-Seeing Eye Dave Holland - Conference Of The Birds Anthony Braxton - 3 Compositions Of New Jazz, For Alto Bill Frisell - Rambler Also, thanks for the suggestions in the thread everyone, keep 'em coming.
__________________ "This human thing in instrumental playing, has to do with trying to get as much human warmth and feeling into my work as I can. I want to say more on my horn than I ever could in ordinary speech." - Eric Dolphy Last edited by Extrapolation : 08-02-2011 at 09:09 PM. |
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#29
08-02-2011, 08:43 PM
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| Please people who like free and avante garde. I really recommend the work of the Vandermark 5 and the Chicago Underground trio (or quartet or duo...though be warned, there is a lot of use of electronics). Vandermark's compositions are really cool, and his understanding if the history of avante garde is deep. |
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#30
08-02-2011, 09:46 PM
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Linear Mode
