UPDATE: News re Buzz Feiten

[Kojo27]

In the slim, vaporous chance that anyone still gives a shit about Buzz Feiten, I'll offer the following:

Long story short, I found myself on the telephone with "Allen," who works sales for the "new" Buzz Feiten Company, and while much of what I have here are inferences, I think they're true or very close to true.

• Washburn has completely stopped installing BF - Not one of their new models has it. This is a fact.
• Seems Buzz (entrepreneur that he is) realized that the big money was in royalties from big-fee "Feitenizing."
• Buzz & Co. already have 180+ certified techs worldwide, pushing BF as a "really good" solution for intonation problems. Eighty-some of these shops are in the USA.
• The touted $139 fee (pretty reasonable, eh?) they advertise on their website, oh jeez, is for *electric guitars* only - with tun-o-matic saddles.
• If you want your acoustic Feitenized, well, ahem, the fee _starts_ at only $350. To Feitenize an acoustic, the frets must be properly leveled, dressed, etc., the neck must be absolutely straight... and any of this stuff is EXTRA, on top of the $350. The $350 is for the nut and "extremely complex" saddle, handmade precisely for YOUR guitar, your strings, your action, etc.
• Buzz stands to make millions - or if not Buzz, his progeny, and theirs, etc.
• "Allen" said that Washburn really helped the BF company get its "name out there," but the process now is much, much better. Now there's the shelf nut. Washburn did not employ this wonder device. And now there's the handmade saddle for acoustic guitars. Capos and barre chords don't affect a damn thing, somehow. BF is going to revolutionize the world!
• This is about all I got from the 20-minute conversation. Oh: McPherson pays the royalty and passes the cost on to their wealthy customers. Several dozen independent luthiers build BF into their $8,000 guitars, too.

N.B. I'm not (NOT) trying or wanting to start another long Buzz Feiten thread. Just wanted to share this in its proper category.

[docbop]

I heard Buzz and Allen parted ways a few years ago and Buzz hasn't had anything to do with the company in a long time.

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by docbop

I heard Buzz and Allen parted ways a few years ago and Buzz hasn't had anything to do with the company in a long time.

Could be, doc. I didn't know it while talking to him, but Allen Wald is President & CEO of the whole deal. I said, "So you really think this system will make my [guitar] play in tune?" He said, "Ab-so-FREAK-in-LUTELY, it will."

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

Could be, doc. I didn't know it while talking to him, but Allen Wald is President & CEO of the whole deal. I said, "So you really think this system will make my [guitar] play in tune?" He said, "Ab-so-FREAK-in-LUTELY, it will."

HE would say that, wouldn't he? Any or-your-money-back guarantees?

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

HE would say that, wouldn't he? Any or-your-money-back guarantees?

That might be up to the techs or luthiers who install the nut and, in the case of acoustics, make those complex saddles, too. Do they have money-back guarantees when they do most other kinds of jobs? I don't know. Bob Willcutt in Lexington, KY "guarantees" his work, but I'm not sure what that means. Money back, or try again till you're satisfied...? Don't know.

I'd think that a good number of those who pay for a BF "upgrade" are already convinced of the worth of the difference. $139 is a good chunk of money to throw down without any idea of how much it's going to help -- but then, a good guitar tech (Dan Erlewine!) can be all the "proof" some people need. If you've known a guy for years, he's always been honest with you, and he tells you this new thing will help your intonation problems -- that means a lot.

kj

[Kojo27]

You know, I have a dreadnought, the best sounding one, for the money, especially, I've owned or played. But the intonation is pathetic - sharp on 3 of the 6 strings, everywhere.

I'm about 90% sure I'm going to ship it to Atlanta and have a recommended-by-Allen-Wald tech put a "shelf nut" on it and make a BF compensated saddle -- and then I'll know a lot more. A fairly well-known repair guy (writes columns, books, etc.) did a beautiful "traditional" setup for me -- new antique bone nut, to replace the too-high nut that came on it -- and a new, antique-bone, compensated saddle. He also routed the bridge pin holes so I can use un-slotted bridge pins (a bit more tone). $200 for this.

Intonation is still horrible. A bit better than before, but simply unacceptable. I have a $329 Washburn with relatively perfect intonation. Out of the box, was damn near flawless. You'd think if builders of $329 guitars can do it, then builders of $2000 guitars can SURELY do it. But no!

And the guy who did the $200 "traditional" setup? He told me, before shipping it back to me, that the dreadnought played, now, '"spot on" all over the neck, at every fret.'

Obviously, some just can't hear. But he could have checked it with a tuner - it's out of tune that badly. So I don't know. Beautiful handiwork. Money lost.

[kambor]

I don't want to flame, but I don't know what's wrong in general with many self-called luthiers (and there are plenty of them in USA it seems). People that have machinery (or the bucks to buy it), some experience with wood (sometimes their guitars will intonate as well as your dinner table), and buy some plans, and after making two or three prototypes suddenly become luthiers and start charging 1 o 2k the piece.

I have absolutely no respect for any "luthier" that can't build a traditional classical guitar that intonates perfectly. Here's the thing with apprenticeship on the old good Europe: you work on a shop, maybe sanding guitars, or varnishing. If you want to be allowed to participate in the actual building of guitars, you had to present an instrument to the master. The master judged the work, and if it was good, you could start helping building HIS instruments and learning from him. If not, well.... let's say there have been some expensive campfires throughout history...

[strumcat]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

In the slim, vaporous chance that anyone still gives a shit about Buzz Feiten...

lol

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by kambor

I don't want to flame, but I don't know what's wrong in general with many self-called luthiers (and there are plenty of them in USA it seems). People that have machinery (or the bucks to buy it), some experience with wood (sometimes their guitars will intonate as well as your dinner table), and buy some plans, and after making two or three prototypes suddenly become luthiers and start charging 1 o 2k the piece.

I have absolutely no respect for any "luthier" that can't build a traditional classical guitar that intonates perfectly. Here's the thing with apprenticeship on the old good Europe: you work on a shop, maybe sanding guitars, or varnishing. If you want to be allowed to participate in the actual building of guitars, you had to present an instrument to the master. The master judged the work, and if it was good, you could start helping building HIS instruments and learning from him. If not, well.... let's say there have been some expensive campfires throughout history...

I agree (of course "perfect intonation" is a figure of speech, no?).

Anybody with a StewMac catalog and a workbench and some money can hang out a shingle proclaiming, "Joe Macaroni, Luthier" -- and make guitars out of Brazilian rosewood, redwood, Adirondack spruce, AAA maple -- it's right there in the StewMac catalog! And Macaroni Guitar Co. could grow to a mid-size operation and use no other supply source other than Stewart McDonald's catalog. (Get one - they're fascinating!)

If Joe has five grand to gamble with, he could buy a couple of full-page ads in Guitar Player, w/all the photography shot through 8 sepia lenses: "Macaroni Guitars: Instruments for the Soul." Or some such shit, and if he sells one guitar, BAM, money recouped and the ad stays in those issues forever. In the future, if the ad department at GP ever has extra space they haven't sold, they'll call Joe and offer him a full page for whatever -- $1000? Anything beats a blank page.

It does suck, Kambor. I guess it's "buyer beware." Macaroni Guitars are probably guaranteed for life, but they don't give refunds (it's custom work, after all...)

[Space Pickle]

fucking joe macaroni :argh:

[kambor]

@Space Pickle: lol!

That's what I was talking about Kojo. And about intonation, nice classical guitars (and I'm not even talking about the most expensive ones) have to have perfect intonation. There's nothing worse than trying to play a Bach fugue in a less than perfect intonated guitar. Lots of 9th intervals that suddenly become b9....ugh!!

[strumcat]

I thought it was physically impossible to build a guitar that intonates perfectly?

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by strumcat

I thought it was physically impossible to build a guitar that intonates perfectly?

I think he means "as close to perfect as a guitar can be" - or something close to that. Maybe that the 12th fret harmonic matches the 12th fret note?

The dreadnought I mentioned above has such bad intonation along the low E, high E, and B strings, I haven't yet figured out any compromise that will let me play a 6-tune set of fiddle tunes without stopping the show to re-tune, at least twice. Old Martin guitars (esp. 70s models) have horrible intonation, but players have found that if one can arrive at a fair "sweetness" in both an open G and an open E, the other cowboy chords will often sound passable, too -- especially in a band, where the other instruments can "soak up" some of the dissonance. (These Martins have bridges that are as much as 1/4" out of place! Some luthiers are making good money right now by moving Martin bridges back, achieving proper intonation.)

If only I could afford a Macaroni.

[kambor]

I mean PERFECT intonation. I've seen it.

It may be that steel string acoustics are harder to intonate, but classical guitar makers have been compensating the scale for some time now, and they can achieve a perfect intonation for a given set of strings through all the neck (or at least as good as it can be perceived by the ear).

I say for a given set of strings because if you change tensions, or switch your G string for another brand (as a lot people do), you need a new saddle made to compensate for that adjustement in tension. If there's not much difference between the two, it can be made. However, if the change is too much, you might have problems with intonation again because the bridge can't be moved.

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by kambor

I mean PERFECT intonation. I've seen it.

It may be that steel string acoustics are harder to intonate, but classical guitar makers have been compensating the scale for some time now, and they can achieve a perfect intonation for a given set of strings through all the neck (or at least as good as it can be perceived by the ear).

I say for a given set of strings because if you change tensions, or switch your G string for another brand (as a lot people do), you need a new saddle made to compensate for that adjustement in tension. If there's not much difference between the two, it can be made. However, if the change is too much, you might have problems with intonation again because the bridge can't be moved.

i've only heard of two makers who do this (compensated nut). Byers and another guy whose names eludes me. who else does this?

[kambor]

I didn't meant a compensated nut, I meant compensated bridge, most commonly +2mm in the bass side and -1mm on the treble side, if I'm not mistaken.

Maestro Rafael Lopez Porras amongst other luthiers make this kind of compensation, and his guitars receive high praise not only in intonation but in sound.

[Bill C]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

i've only heard of two makers who do this (compensated nut). Byers and another guy whose names eludes me. who else does this?

Phil Hartley in the UK does it ...

Phil Hartley Guitar Repairs - Nuts About Intonation

Phil Hartley Guitar Repairs - The Funky Nut

Phil built me a T style guitar a few years ago using the "funky nut" - superb intonation.

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by Bill C

Phil Hartley in the UK does it ...

Phil Hartley Guitar Repairs - Nuts About Intonation

Phil Hartley Guitar Repairs - The Funky Nut

Phil built me a T style guitar a few years ago using the "funky nut" - superb intonation.

But note, Bill, that Kambor isn't talking about achieving "perfect" intonation via a compensated nut -- merely by way of compensating the saddle.

Jeez, I'd like to have such a guitar. I've never even seen one.

kj

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by kambor

I didn't meant a compensated nut, I meant compensated bridge, most commonly +2mm in the bass side and -1mm on the treble side, if I'm not mistaken.

Maestro Rafael Lopez Porras amongst other luthiers make this kind of compensation, and his guitars receive high praise not only in intonation but in sound.

ok, i understand but strongly disagree. sorry 'bout that.

there is no way that a compsensated saddle alone will give you "perfect intonation" on any guitar - especially one with nylon strings. not that its the luthier's fault though. nylon strings are inherently inconsistent, even when they are made with lasers.

steel strings are superior, generally speaking. but even a fine archtop or other steel string guitar with a tune-o-matic type saddle/bridge will not be perfect.

hence the market for compensated nuts.

[kambor]

It may be that he also compensates the nut but doesn't tell it. But, as I said, I've played and seen classical guitars without compensated nuts that intonate perfectly (after a luthier's adjustement for a particular set of strings).

For what is worth, I've managed to achieve a great intonation with savarez alliance strings in my less-than-great study classical guitar, so I would say that this depends a lot on the strings, but it can me made, and it's being for a few years now.

I've got no interest or affiliation with anyone mentioned in my post, but I respect those makers that actually refine their instruments to the point of making them awesome sounding and playing tools, so you can take my word that there are a few makers (at least here in Spain) that get the classical guitars intonated with just the bridge saddle.

[ronjazz]

Both of my Lester DeVoe flamenco guitars play beautifully in tune, all over the neck. I have settled on Luthier strings because they are the most consistently in-tune strings I have ever played in 45 years of trying everything. Strings are much better now than they were 40 years ago, much more consistent and fewer flaws. As far as I can tell, lester's great intonation comes from paying attention to every detail when building.

[kambor]

+1 to that ronjazz

[Kojo27]

Kambor wrote: It may be that he also compensates the nut but doesn't tell it.

I've heard of luthiers who do this. Why explain to the player (and other luthiers!) why your guitars sound so great? Just let them sound great and sell themselves, as it's been for a hundred years. Smart!

[EinarG]

This is what you have to do with your neck to make it intonate perfectly:


Would love to try this out, but it's to much of an operation to do to one of my archtops.

But the Buzz Feiten system works great to compensate for the really out of pitch notes. I've got the feiten system in my suhr, and it's great.

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

I've heard of luthiers who do this. Why explain to the player (and other luthiers!) why your guitars sound so great? Just let them sound great and sell themselves, as it's been for a hundred years. Smart!

i am skeptical about this. sounds like a rumor. can anyone name one who does it without mentioning it?

the luthier needs to know what kind of strings you will use to do it right. i suppose they could do something sort of "average" but there wouldn't be much point, or so it seems to me.