7 String Players Here--Any?

[NSJ]

Anyone out there playing the 7 string? How do you enjoy it? What issues have you encountered? How has it changed the way you view a 6 string?

I just started playing 7 string, and I've found the following to be true:

1. The increased separation between the bass and treble parts makes the melody lines sound better, crisper, fuller.

2. The guitar really shines up the neck, 5th, 7th, 10th position or so, where it is possible to find a proper bass note and still play up the neck (e.g., the FM7 on the 8th position--instead of playing that traditional F in the bass from the 5th string--what kind of bass note is that? It's the same damn note as the 3rd fret, 4th string!--you can find the bass note an octave below, which the same as as the 6th string, first fret--think about that--you can play in the 8th position and use a proper bass note from the 1st position). It really seems that playing up the neck is the real strength of the 7th string!

3. Playing lines using octaves has always been cool. But now it's really easy and doubly sweet to play lines using DOUBLE octaves.

[wizard3739]

I have always wanted to try the 7-string and recently, a good friend, Dick Curtis (7-string Player), loaned me one his guitars. What I have found so far is there is much to think about when learning to play the 7-string. I have tried two different tunings (A below the E string and B below the E string). The chord possibilities are much expanded and for me, the single line sounds are pretty much the same. One interesting aspect is the ability to play bass lines in a small group that can't afford a bass player. Obviously, I have much to learn about playing the 7-string and I suspect the journey for learning will be more valuable to me than the end result.

wiz

[Dookychase]

I have a 7 string from luthier Jimmy Foster. I don't play a whole lot, being really busy, but I love the sound. Once you get used to hearing the low A, its difficult to go back to a six string.

Google Randy Hebert and you'll find he has a youtube channel. He doesn't do very much improvising, but he does alot of tunes in a basic manner. I like his tone.

He's a real nice guy from New Orleans. I met him at Jimmy's shop a few months ago. On a couple of clips he plays a Raines 7 string which sounds rather bright to me, but the Foster sounds really good.

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by Dookychase

I have a 7 string from luthier Jimmy Foster. I don't play a whole lot, being really busy, but I love the sound. Once you get used to hearing the low A, its difficult to go back to a six string.

Google Randy Hebert and you'll find he has a youtube channel. He doesn't do very much improvising, but he does alot of tunes in a basic manner. I like his tone.

He's a real nice guy from New Orleans. I met him at Jimmy's shop a few months ago. On a couple of clips he plays a Raines 7 string which sounds rather bright to me, but the Foster sounds really good.

Cool, thanks. I'll look him up.

Wiz, I tend to think that the 7th string is best tuned to A, an octave below the 5th. All those 7th chords with prior roots on the 5th string sound SO MUCH BETTER, now. Plus, the difference between the 7th and 6th becomes an interval value of P5, so it's easy to alternate bass notes.

One effect of playing a 7 string is that barring a 6 string becomes a piece of cake, by comparison.

[hot ford coupe]

I've got enough trouble playing on six strings, a seventh will definitely send me over the edge. Actually, I've always wanted to try one but I never had the opportunity. After hearing people play a 7 string, I can definitely understand the benefits of that extra string whether it be an A or B.

[jtizzle]

7 String? try an 8 string!

YouTube - ‪Tom Lippincott Jazz Guitar Harmony Part I‬‏
This guy's a local guitarist in my area. Plays nasty on an eighter. He teaches a friend of mine, apparently he's a really good teacher.

[mr. beaumont]

You are not helping my 7 string GAS.

My next guitar will be a 7...but that's gonna be a while down the road...

[ronjazz]

I've been playing the 7-string electric jazz guitar for 30 years, just switched over to nylon 7, really great sound. Tune to an A, and just transfer everything from the 5th over to the 7th, easy-peasy. Don't look t the guitar, your mind will think you're looking at the 6th string. Check this out: YouTube - ‪Don't Blame Me‬‏

[Dookychase]

Hey Ron, really enjoyed your trio. Nice playing. I love the nylon string guitar, what model/brand is it?

[ronjazz]

thanks! That's a Bartolex guitar, Chinese, brand new at the time of the taping, I've had a new bridge put on and a bit of neck and fret work done, sounds even better now. Bartolex makes 7, 8 10 and 11-string guitars, but they're quality control is spotty. Even so, I consider them "unfinished furniture", in that they are affordable and sound quite good, but generally need some work by a good luthier to bring them up to pro standards. I am about to have my Aparicio flamenco converted to a 7, with RMC pickups for driving a synth. Add a looper to that rig, and the possibilities should be endless!

[Dookychase]

I thought of getting one. Luthier Jimmy Foster was working on developing a 7 string nylon before he passed away. I never got a chance to play it.

Also, I think Raines Guitars has one on their website.

Thanks

[NSJ]

I think the 7 string really succeeds up the neck, 7th,8th, 10th position--where you can find bass notes on the 7th string that would be impossible to play on the 6th--and, more importantly, makes the treble notes sound much better due to greater interval separation (over an octave Plus). Think of that FM7 chord in the 8th position--if you play the F on the 7th string instead of the 5th, it's the equivalence of "stretching" to play the same bass note on the 1st fret, 6th string of a 6 string. That is an impossible stretch, of course. But it's easy, using a barre, to find it on the 7 string. My teacher explicitly said that the great weakness of the 6 string is the inability to find the right bass notes up the neck. The 7 string addresses and corrects this.

That octave plus separation really makes the treble notes sound much better.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by hot ford coupe

I've got enough trouble playing on six strings, a seventh will definitely send me over the edge. Actually, I've always wanted to try one but I never had the opportunity. After hearing people play a 7 string, I can definitely understand the benefits of that extra string whether it be an A or B.

+1 This is me, exactly!

Nice trio, ronjazz!

[paynow]

People who play them have told me you have to learn it like an entirely new instrument. I've always been intrigued.

You know, Ibanez makes an EIGHT string, it's a metal, shredder type of axe... Wonder if it has a jazz tone?

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

You are not helping my 7 string GAS.

A little Beano might help that. (Sorry, couldn't resist).

[otillio]

You haven't lived until you play a seven string chord!

Can someone explain the reason for the huge disparity in size between the
sixth and seventh string?

Keep on pluckin'

[ronjazz]

It isn't necessary to have a "huge disparity" in size between 6 and 7, but if you tune down to an A, then you'll need a pretty fat string, somewhere between .060 and .075, depending on the rest of the set.

[Dookychase]

Jimmy Foster used to use a .080 for his 7th string. I don't know if he ever changed to something smaller.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by otillio

You haven't lived until you play a seven string chord!

Can someone explain the reason for the huge disparity in size between the
sixth and seventh string?

Keep on pluckin'

Here are the gauges for La Bella Black Nylon Tape Flat Wound 7 String:

14 18 36 46 56 67 79

Seems to be balanced.

[Jabberwocky]

I have been thinking about stringing a regular 6-string guitar this way: low A E D g b e. That is, tune the 6th string low A below E with an appropriately thick gauge, move the bass E string over to the 5th string, thus omitting the usual A.

Does this sound workable without going to a 7-string?

[TruthHertz]

Nicest thing about the 7 is not having to shift positions back below 5th fret to get the low range bass notes. I tune to low B. Who uses A and how many from the B club? I chose B so I could play melodically right "through" the low E and my fingerings are still intact. I use a lot of low range linear melody in the lower range now, and finding a fifth below the root notes on the E string is really nice.
I play Bach and I don't have to make awkward octave transpositions, and since I'm tuned in 4ths, the mental adjustment is nonexistent.
For about 6 months before I made the jump, I did play the 6 string guitar tuned down a 4th. It helped me see the advantages of the 7 string. After the transition it's been about a year to really get comfortable. Sometimes old muscle memory will haunt me and I'll feel like the low string is going to be an E string. But mostly it's a memory.
I can't go back. 6 just seems like a uke at this point.
David

[ronjazz]

If you're going to go with a 6-string, it might be easier to learn if you just replace the 5th string with a .066-.075 gauge and tune it down the octave. that way, you won't have to learn new fingerings, and you'll still get the range. As far as tuning for the 7-string goes, for jazz it seems to be an A is more user-friendly, as you just have to move the bass notes from the 5th to the 7th, but either way is going to be cool. The Brazilians generally use a low B, although they will tune to an A or a C depending on the piece. I usually go with A, but occasionally go to B for Brazilian stuff, or C for classical lute pieces.

[jster]

I want to buy one. About two months ago I switched to tuning in fourths. The fretboard is much much easier to visualize. MOREOVER, if you use a seven string, it would be much much much easier. Really, assuming seven patterns total, they would all look pretty much the same, just shifted. They are pretty much the same with six strings, but with seven it would be super obvious.

And I think that the seven strings would give you a bunch more extra options for chords. Although you pros would know more about voicings than I.

Frankly, I'm not sure why more jazz guys don't switch to tuning in fourths. The conventional tuning is analogous to a piano where after 48 keys, all the keys are shifted by a half-step, so the black keys are no longer flatted. Think about how silly that would be. Yet guitar players put up with something similar. I really think it makes guitar much harder. There is some quote from Holdsworth saying that if he started again he would use fourths. Sorry, I know I'm changing the subject, but I really have been thinking about a 7 string since I started tuning in fourths.

[ronjazz]

Well, George Van Eps, the creator of the 7-string in jazz, would take issue with a tuning in 4ths, he thought that the guitar's tuning was a great gift, because, as idiosyncratic as it is, it makes each player find his own way through the layout. Of course, he used a 5th interval between 7 and 6, so he is even more out of touch with the 4ths tuning you're thinking about. I think that scales would be easier, but chords more difficult, and the 7-string is really all about chords, or, as Van Eps calls it, a "lap piano". In any event, good luck with your experiment. If you haven't already, check out Stanley Jordan, he tunes in 4ths.

[jster]

Originally Posted by ronjazz

I think that scales would be easier, but chords more difficult,

Well scales and I failed to mention arpeggios are a lot easier. Really, not even close. Three notes per string for all 7 note scales means arpeggios are super obvious. And speed.

But I want to pick your brain a bit about chords as I'm pretty weak/behind in voicings. Is it really true that one is giving up a lot in the jazz chord department. Of course for rock and folk, etc, you lose the big barr chords. But are there really a lot fewer hip voicings? Is there a consensus about that? Because I did worry about that in the beginning. I have mostly been working on single note stuff.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by jster

And I think that the seven strings would give you a bunch more extra options for chords. Although you pros would know more about voicings than I.

You're right about 4ths, they uniformity of it is a real visualization plus. The thing about the 3rd there, it gives one bonus chance to get really tight intervals at that spot. Otherwise you're stuck with the normal stretching of 4ths.
But yes, I tune 4ths in the bass and it does open up possibilities.
Soon after I got serious about exploring the new voicing possibilities, I went online and printed up a blank fret grid template for a 7 string and filled in all the tonics (don't think of it in any key, just the interval numbers) and then I used it to scan the chords for voicings. You can see everything all at once so it's kind of a no brainer. I then began collecting and using voicings.
I will add at this point that I'm a fingerstyle player and if you're going to think like a piano player, don't think you have to sound all the notes of the chord at once, and don't exclude any voicing just because adjacent voices aren't on adjacent strings. This way, you can get monk-ish voicings by breaking the chord into several smaller chords and you don't have to hold awkward intervals while you're covering other strings.
I'll use the bass notes sometimes by themselves followed quickly by chordal combinations. You hear pianists doing this. It opens up 7 string harmony a lot.
You can play nice voicings in the top strings, and then reach down, hit a bass note in the 7 string neighborhood... that's clear over two octaves below. It says everything.
David

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by jster

Frankly, I'm not sure why more jazz guys don't switch to tuning in fourths. .

Because it's taken me 20 years to get this far in standard tuning! The last thing I need to do now is start moving notes around!

I get the idea of it, but alas, I cannot go back in time and pick up that tuning when I had the sponge-like brain of a 13 year old...

[Dookychase]

Jabberwocky, I think Jimmy Foster has/had a youtube video demonstrating using a 6 string and retuning it to give you an idea of a 7 string.
Check it out.

[otillio]

Condolences to all on Jim Foster's demise...
He did increase the gauge of the seventh string to an "80". He insisted that I string his soidbody with a standard set of "11's" and add a "76" or "78" at the time of my original purchase some time ago. We met at the first "Classic Guitar show" in Long Island where he was selling his only model - a beautiful, basic, solid body seven-string for $1500. By the time of my purchase (and specs), it cost me $2500. Great guy. Very accessable and a player. He recorded and sent me a CD with his wife on vocals. May he rest in peace...

The Matt Raines nylon seven string is an incredible instrument - and a bargain. The seventh string is a bit floppy when tuned to a low A; replace it with a LA Bella High tension set...problem solved! Mine came with a cedar top and sounded great. He wouldn't identify the luthier, except to
say he was from California"?". (Matt sometimes has "seconds" for sale.)

Hale and farewell.

[ronjazz]

Foster was one of the best 7-string players around, and I've heard great things about his guitars, although haven't played one. I'm using my nylon 7 for most gigs, it has a really warm sound, like an organ, almost, and lots of tonal variety. It even gets the "growl" of an upright when the bass strings are hit just right. I found through research that Matt Raines' stuff is very inconsistent; sometimes you get a great deal, sometimes a dog, and he appears to be somewhat difficult to deal with. Still, I'd like one of those Flamenco 7's he sells.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by ronjazz

I found through research that Matt Raines' stuff is very inconsistent; sometimes you get a great deal, sometimes a dog, and he appears to be somewhat difficult to deal with.

Glad I'm not alone in this experience. I had really bad experience with my 7, sharp fret ends, a truss rod that didn't have enough thread, electronics wired reverse, bad fretting that needed to be leveled. It cost me hundreds to try to get it right, and once the weather changed and I tried to pull the neck back to straight, that's when I found out there weren't enough threads, the rod had bottomed out. Guess what? Every single penny wasted. Response? Silence.
Friend I know got a Raines, like a hollow les paul, looked great. End studs on the stop tailpiece started pulling out. I guess there wasn't enough wood to anchor them in. Knobs on the pots fell off, again the electronics were such low quality the metal on the shafts was soft and couldn't fit the knobs. Fret and machine problems with his too. He said his customer support was non existent after 1 email. There was quite a time difference between our purchases, more than enough time for Raines to have addressed at least the fret problems with his builders, but for whatever reason the same problems remained.
It would seem the record on these guitars cannot be called a safe bet. I'm still burning.
David