Technique - Playing Fourths

[JakeAcci]

Say you have to play two or more notes in melodic succession that are on the same fret but different strings - let's say the 5th fret on the D string and then the 5th fret of the G string.

I've heard a number of sources advocate using the same finger for both notes and using the 'rolling' technique. Other sources, like Andrew Green here ChopsFactory-Jazz Guitar advocate using a different finger on each string. He has some compelling reasons...

I've more or less personally come to the conclusion that if one way works for Steve Morse and Jack Grassel and the opposite way works for Andrew Green, then I probably can get away with using a bit of each approach, rather than being hard lined into one perspective.

However, I have sometimes found that for very fast lines using two different fingers for this scenario seems much cleaner and easier.

What's your approach?

[4thstuning]

A long time ago I took bass lessons with an electric bassist. He taught me to cover fourths with one finger. My initial difficulty was getting the last joint of the finger to bend freely but with practice it became quite natural to do so, and that was on an electric bass, with a guitar it's even easier.

[jimiclaptoncarl18]

My goal is to be able to do both fluently, so I don't need to think about fingering and can just "play."

[JakeAcci]

Thanks guys.

Anybody else want to share their approach? Anybody have opinions about the Green article? He's stating some pretty definitive opinions!


Anyway, more on my thinking, some possible fingerings for this simple pattern:



----6-8----------7---------------------------
--6-----8------7-----------------------------
5---------7--6------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------



I probably would normally assume to finger it like this:



1 2 2 4 4 3 2 3 3
----6-8---------7---------------------------
--6-----8-----7-----------------------------
5---------7-6------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

But I've been playing around with it this way and it seems smoother:


1 2 1 4 3 2 1 2 1
----6-8---------7---------------------------
--6-----8-----7-----------------------------
5---------7-6------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------



And other options would include changing the string on some of those notes so you'd get a pair of notes on the same string a fourth apart.

[docbop]

I' ve always used the rolling finger technique. Since typically only two sometimes three notes. Just barring the notes can get into issues cutting the previous note off where rolling it a bit easier.

[reventlov]

Jake - that little pattern you posted is interesting, I had some fun with that. To me the most obvious fingering for it would be 1 2 3 3 2 1 1 2 3 but you'd have to be careful to pick fingers up so that there was no 'overlap' between the notes....otherwise it would sound like you were just sliding a chord shape around.

I had a look at what Green had to say - I tried his 'when playing consecutive notes at the same fret, generally use the longer finger (middle) to play the note on the lower string' approach on a few phrases, but to be honest it felt alien to me, I couldn't make it work without a lot of practice. I think that's the approach you took in the third fingering you posted, and I notice you said it felt smoother - so I guess what shows is we're all different and there is no 'one way suits all' technique.

As regards his two reasons for avoiding the barre approach - I think you could argue against both of them....the first reason is that ' it can result in inconsistent time when you plant one finger with enough pressure to play two notes cleanly in the middle of an eigth note line' - I think the key word there is 'can' - and if that happens I think that it can be eliminated by simply being aware of time and rhythm in a very conscious way while practising the technique.

His second reason is probably true for some people, and since he's dealing with a longterm effect leading to a kind of RSI, it's hard to tell if this is a problem for a player until it's too late to fix it without a prolonged period of therapy - but then....that's true of all guitar playing, and indeed of playing most instruments, it's the chance you take when you play. If you take his approach to it's logical conclusion, nobody would play anything.

As with so many questions of technique, it really is a matter of each individual trying different approaches and figuring out which one - or which combination - works best for himself. It's fun to mess with different ways of doing things though - good topic

[Jake Hanlon]

There are always too many things to consider.

tempo or the rhythmic complexity of the situation. Rolling is on 1 finger over two strings is reasonably simple to pull off without getting any unwanted diads and with three strings you can use your right hand to give you some extra dampering on your sustain risks much like a piano pedal (I still main tain that %60 if not more of people's technique trouble lays in their right hand rather then their fretting hand).

That pattern you posted as I look at it I would roll and slide moving my hand position to make it as easy as possible to perform. But that's me. I'd also probably play the "c" on the 8th fret of my 4th string and then it fits a basic C minorMajor arpeggio shape I'd be more comfortable with all in one position.

[JakeAcci]

Cool Revent, I dig.

Regarding RSI, I've had nerve issues and actually have had physical therapists tell me to avoid barring and avoid the rolling technique. I do notice my symptoms flair up when I try to do a bunch of crazy rolling fourths with my pinky or something.

I've thought about technique and changed my technique dramatically as a result of both my issues and also often feeling like a technical failure on the instrument.

But until I read Green's article I hadn't considered that there was an alternative fingering to rolling - I just assumed I'd be stuck rolling for those passages. In fact, a better example really would be transposing this lick down a few strings:



---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
----5-7---------6-------------------------------
--5-----7-----6---------------------------------
5---------7-6-----------------------------------
---------------------------------------------


How would you finger that? Rolling is by far easiest for me for that passage, at the moment, I haven't practice the Green technique...




Replaying my own 2nd fingering I posted earlier, I think it's all smooth for me except the last note. A compromise might be:

1 2 1 4 3 2 1 2 2
----6-8---------7---------------------------
--6-----8-----7-----------------------------
5---------7-6------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

I like your fingering - the technique of playing consecutive notes on different frets with the same finger is new to me, and currently I struggle to really pull that off at fast tempos getting a clear pick attack on each note. Obviously it's easier in that scenario to do a slur via a slide to get to the 2nd of the two notes in question, but that might not be the articulation we want at the moment. I definitely find it more difficult to change 2 frets than one fret, but I guess it's just something to practice.

Related to that, I've been working on 4 note-per-string scales, an interesting study and good practice for that exact technique. When you get 3 whole steps on one string it is pretty challenging, for me at least.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon

There are always too many things to consider.

tempo or the rhythmic complexity of the situation. Rolling is on 1 finger over two strings is reasonably simple to pull off without getting any unwanted diads and with three strings you can use your right hand to give you some extra dampering on your sustain risks much like a piano pedal (I still main tain that %60 if not more of people's technique trouble lays in their right hand rather then their fretting hand).

That pattern you posted as I look at it I would roll and slide moving my hand position to make it as easy as possible to perform. But that's me. I'd also probably play the "c" on the 8th fret of my 4th string and then it fits a basic C minorMajor arpeggio shape I'd be more comfortable with all in one position.

Cool Jake, thanks, but I'm not clear on your fingering. If you 'quote' my post you could just write your fingering above the tab, I'd appreciate seeing your approach.

[JohnW400]

I read a Scofield interview years ago where he stated that he used a different finger for each note regardless. After that I started practising 4th's, 7ths and mi10ths that way.

Thinking like that I might finger your pattern as 1 2 3 4 3 2 1 2 3

Of course as Jake points out there are always too many things to consider so...

[Jake Hanlon]

3 1 1 3 3 2 1(or2) 1 1

----6-8----------7---------------------------
--6-----8------7-----------------------------
----------7--6------------------------------
8---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

or something like that.

[reventlov]

'How would you finger that?'

like this....

1 2 3 3 2 1 1 2 3
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
----5-7---------6-------------------------------
--5-----7-----6---------------------------------
5---------7-6-----------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

again, you'd need to make sure you picked the fingers up in such a way as to avoid overlap.

'the technique of playing consecutive notes on different frets with the same finger is new to me, and currently I struggle to really pull that off at fast tempos getting a clear pick attack on each note'

Interesting - it seems from what you say there that the problem is one of co-ordinating the two hands rather than specifically a right or left hand difficulty.
The four note per string scales you mention should help considerably with that; when I play passages like that I more often than not use a right hand finger, I wouldn't attempt it at high speed with the pick alone. Again though, this may not suit the kind of articulation you're looking for - the search for technical freedom is never-ending!

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by reventlov

'How would you finger that?'

like this....

1 2 3 3 2 1 1 2 3
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
----5-7---------6-------------------------------
--5-----7-----6---------------------------------
5---------7-6-----------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

again, you'd need to make sure you picked the fingers up in such a way as to avoid overlap.

Wow! Goes to show we really all have different ways of doing things. Your fingering is incredibly cumbersome to me. Getting the fingers out of the way in time is sloppy, probably just because that's not the technique I usually employ.

Interesting - it seems from what you say there that the problem is one of co-ordinating the two hands rather than specifically a right or left hand difficulty.

That is definitely part of it, for sure, but picking up and re-applying the finger in question is definitely tricky to do smoothly, regardless of the right hand. It's trickier that using two fingers, for sure, but sometimes of course it's the only way.

when I play passages like that I more often than not use a right hand finger, I wouldn't attempt it at high speed with the pick alone.

Passages like the one I posted, or 4NPS scales?

the search for technical freedom is never-ending!

Definitely! My goal right now is to simply be able to play "normal" 8th note liners at "up" tempos. There's some stuff I can pull off at that stratosphere, but a lot of it is trickery, or a tired old Metheny-esque lick. I am definitely on a quest for control. My own personal speed cap has been bumming me out for a long time, in the past year I've made some strides and been doing a lot of work for it...

[reventlov]

'Your fingering is incredibly cumbersome to me. Getting the fingers out of the way in time is sloppy, probably just because that's not the technique I usually employ.'

You don't really need to get them out of the way though....you just need to relax the pressure on the strings - the actual movements you make should be as small as you can make them. It then becomes a little like sliding a shape along the neck of the guitar.

'Passages like the one I posted, or 4NPS scales?'

Like the one you posted - sorry about the ambiguity there! I would use a right hand finger (or fingers) in passages with a lot of string skipping.

'There's some stuff I can pull off at that stratosphere, but a lot of it is trickery'

I think a lot of players can identify with that ...... it's the same for most of us

'I am definitely on a quest for control'

Yup - I can identify with that too. In my case it's more about utilising fingerstyle more than about speed per se, although I do feel that a good right hand fingerstyle technique can enable fast playing - I've just about abandoned using a plectrum these days, but that's straying from the point of the thread a bit, and maybe it's a topic for another day.