Question on Chord Notation

[tnatalizio]

I'm working on Sadie's Dance and I've come across the chord Ab7+4. Is that the same as Ab7#11? Thanks.

-Tony

[bkdavidson]

Pretty much. The #11 implies that there's a 9th in the chord, whereas +4 means it's just an added raised 4th.

[billkath]

Interesting. I've always thought that a sharpened 11 implied one had the 3rd in the chord. That a 9th wasn't important to #11 chords, but the 7 and 3 are.

[FatJeff]

I would just play this as an Ab7 chord with a flatted fifth, taking a shape I already know well and modifying only one note. There may be a distinction at a technical (theoretical) level between +4 and +11, but I seriously doubt it will matter in actual playing.

[fep]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

I would just play this as an Ab7 chord with a flatted fifth, taking a shape I already know well and modifying only one note. There may be a distinction at a technical (theoretical) level between +4 and +11, but I seriously doubt it will matter in actual playing.

That's what I'd do.

When I write charts the difference between Ab7b5 and Ab7#11 has to do with what I want the bass player to play. The Ab7#11 implies that the bass player is playin a 5 in the bass; the Ab7b5 implies that the bass player is playing a b5 in the bass.

Many charts don't make this distinction and can result in the bass player playing the wrong note.

Often times an Ab7#11 is really a Ab7(add#11) as Jeff suggested playing it.

Often times a Ab7#5 is really a Ab7(add b13) where the bass should be playing a 5 not a #5.

The convention though is to write Ab7#11 and Ab7#5.

[mr. beaumont]

this is why i advocate ONLY using the "=" if you mean augmented, and by "augmented," i mean raised fifth.

as for the other chords here, let's not complicate the simple (again!)

Ab7#11 means the available pool of notes is R, 3, 5th, b7th, 9th and #11.

Ab7b5 means R, 3, b5, b7th.

It's up to the melody and common sense to find a voicing that sounds good. A lot of the time, I'll just play the meat and potatoes-- the 3rd, 7th, and the "color tone" which in the case of these chords, would both be a D.

Fep, I'll play in a band anytime with you, bro--IMO, you write chords correctly.

[JohnW400]

I think it is the intention of using the #4 (+4) to specify what note to alter. So I would raise the 3rd to a #4 giving you

Ab D Eb Gb

One possible way to play this chord and get a nice voicing without minor 2nds or a difficult grip is

10 11 x 8 7 x (D Ab Eb Gb)


or you could just play: 4 6 4 7 x x

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by fep

That's what I'd do.

When I write charts the difference between Ab7b5 and Ab7#11 has to do with what I want the bass player to play. The Ab7#11 implies that the bass player is playin a 5 in the bass; the Ab7b5 implies that the bass player is playing a b5 in the bass.

Many charts don't make this distinction and can result in the bass player playing the wrong note.

Interesting....I had never thought of it that way.

Who thinks about bass players, anyways?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

One possible way to play this chord and get a nice voicing without minor 2nds or a difficult grip is

10 11 x 8 7 x (D Ab Eb Gb)


or you could just play: 4 6 4 7 x x

But I like the minor second! You can barre the 4th fret and either play it finger-style or deaden the A string:

4x474x

[Reg]

Hey Tony...Don't know Sadie's Dance...But it's not mystical to figure out what the actual chord is, you can voice any way use choose. Can you analyze changes? Function, melody helps fill in notes etc. If not the most used Dom7 chords that have a #4 or #11, same note, are 4th degree of Molodic Minor. Sometimes called Lydian Dominant, Lydian b7, Mixo.sharp 11 or 4 or any other name someone chooses. Sometimes incorrectly or enharmonically referred to as in your example Ab7b5. Notes would be; 1 3 5 b7 9 #11 13. The other common version is from 7th degree of MM. Lots of names, Termed Altered back in early 70's by Berklee , many more... Lots of versions of enharminic chord symbols: Ab7alt, Ab7b5, Ab7#5, Ab+7, Ab7b5b9, Ab7#5#9, Ab7b9#9#11b13, etc...Notes would be; 1 3 b5 b7 b9,&#9 b13. Actual notes spell an Ab-7b5 chord if you used traditional chord spelling in 3rds. But is and has been accepted in jazz as a dom 7th chord. The next level of dom7th chords with #11 or b5, are a little more complex. You can get one from symmetrical Diminished, 2nd degree or any degree after whole step, few from Neapolitan maj. and min., Double Harmonic maj. and min. or just create one. There obviously not common.
Once you've determined what the actual chord is you can voice how ever you choose. Good luck Reg.